Grateful Dead

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Seth - Listened to "Music's Over" from Absolutely Live. Great version! Very passionate. Now for that apology: I'm truly very sorry for you that your favorite recording doesn't have more low end. Maybe that's "their sound" and y'all like it, which is great, but its not my bag (and that's OK!). The organ (non-bass), cymbals/snare, and vocals are all very high in the mix and "up front" making the overall sound mid-high. Guitar mid-volume. The "bass" (or simulated bass) is clearly lower in the mix (my EQ reflects this) and of course has the organ sound -"wuf" instead of "bop" - no compression. I'd do anything to hear a real bass at full volume in there, especially in the dynamic part of the jam where the band is "3/3 timing" (11:00~). Actually, it would be nice to hear the bass do ANYTHING more inventive than redundantly repeat the EXACT same pattern over and over... no variation whatsoever! I find it distractingly redundant... A separate bass player would have been a little louder and "present", and would have been able to focus on a little more creativity with the bassline, unlike Manzarek who was distracted with his right hand lead he was playing much of the time. Can you imagine Brent repeating the same 4 bass notes throughout a 15 minute Dark Star so he could focus on the right hand, and saying "Yeah, I'm glad Phil's not here - Brent on bass sounds JUST as good!". I think Jerry's opinion of the Doors was possibly colored by the fact that Morrison stood for everything things Jerry couldn't relate to: self importance, L.A., proclamation of himself as a Lizard King and all the accompanying pantomime, the sex symbol thing, whipping out his dick, the drunk/belligerent screaming persona and all the stories he heard from the guy who had to "handle' Morrison during his boozy aggravated arrests - NOT a guy I could imagine chilling on a couch and shooting the breeze with Jerry. That combined with Jerry's opinion that their live sound was "very brittle sound live, a three piece band with no bass" (and ALL the other stuff he said about their music) left him flat from a musical AND character perspective. deadegad - Thanks for sharing that "The Doors themselves were aware of the 'thinness' issue as other described their live sound. They were planning a more proper tour after LA Woman and wanted to bring Elvis' bassist Jerry Sheff on that tour". I didn't realize that they were planning to finally add a bass player on stage.... that's a tour I would have liked to hear.

First off Thin, glad you got to listen to that. And I guess I take those shortcomings in lack of full sound as simply being the sound of the Doors. And I do sometimes have an issue with the repetitive simple organ Bass lines. Great point on that. But overall I like it and I think Ray repeats a lot as he is waiting on Jim to do what he does. Perhaps he gives Jim the space and hopes that Jim behaves and keeps somewhat to the structure of the song. I may be biased in liking most of it cause I grew up with it. Mustin- Thanks so much for posting that Ray Manzarek story. It's interesting in getting a taste of the polar opposite dynamic of the LA and San Francisco rock scene. The whole I don’t know whether to call him “Pig” or “Mr. Pen” had me cracking up out loud. It's good to laugh at all this. Sounds like a true Spinal Tap moment the day the Doors encountered the Dead. Both bands seemed to take themselves a bit too seriously that day of the shared bill.

Can somebody close the fucking Doors already? The stench of self-stroking insecurity is flooding the room.

From Ray's book... "The Dead’s support system was enormous. They had huge amps and many roadies, old ladies and groupies and yes-men, personal cooks and gophers and gurus and soundmen and manager types. Consequently, they had no need for normal human intercourse and/or discourse. They were completely insulated. It was a little world of its own and they were perfectly content to remain inside…with you locked out. I never did get to know any of them. I barely talked to any of them. I did try to communicate with their organ player, one “Pig Pen,” but that turned into a complete fiasco. Here’s what happened. The Doors and the Dead are playing together at some outdoor festival–type gig. The Dead are the headliners (it’s early ’67). They have a ****ing wall of amplifiers. It’s like the wall in Fritz Lang’s Destiny. It dwarfs any human standing in front of it. And drum sets, two of them. And guitars everywhere. And…a Vox Continental Organ! Just like mine. Set up stage right. Just where I set up. They have a sound check in the afternoon and it takes forever. They noodle, they fool around, they play out of tune, they try to tune up…but fail…and finally play a song. Vocals are out of harmony, guitars are tuned to some arcane, eccentric mode that each musician has kept as his own private secret, not telling the fellow next to him what the mode is, and the rhythm section is at cross purposes with each other, laying down what seems to be two separate and distinct rock beats that have no relation to each other. In other words, it’s a typical Grateful Dead song/jam. They finish and, to them, everything seems fine. The musicians begin to leave the stage and the roadies lovingly gather up all the guitars. Everything else has to stay exactly where it is. The drums are not allowed to be moved. Pig Pen’s organ must not be moved. Fritz Lang’s wall of Destiny is impossible to move. For our sound check—and performance—John’s drums will have to be set up on the floor, in front of the existing pair of drum risers. No riser for John. The Dead have taken both of them. John’s pissed, as well he should be. I take the opportunity to run up to Pig Pen. I don’t know whether to call him “Pig” or “Mr. Pen.” Mister sounds a bit formal between long-hairs and “Pig” sounds like an insult. I opted for the all-purpose, ubiquitous “man.” “Hey, man,” I say, bounding onto the stage before he retreats into the womblike miasma of Dead sycophants. “I’m the keyboard player with the Doors.” “So?…” He’s slow and unenthusiastic. I extend my hand but he doesn’t take it. Actually, he doesn’t even really see it. His pace is slow. I try to be jolly. “I play a Vox Continental just like yours.” “It can’t be moved,” he says. “I know that.” I smile, hoping to somehow communicate with this fellow musician. “What I want to ask is…instead of bringing my organ onstage and placing it in front of yours…I simply use yours.” “You wanna what?” He is slow. “I want to use your Vox. I play the exact same thing. I’ll just set my piano bass on top of your organ and it’ll all be simple and easy. Nothing has to be moved.” His head starts to shake back and forth. He isn’t liking the idea. But he is understanding the idea. I’m thankful for that. I press on. "If I have to bring my organ up, I’ll have to set it up right in front of yours. I play on the same side of the stage, just like you.” “So…?” “Then there’ll be two Vox organs on stage. One in front of the other. It’ll look ridiculous. People will think, ‘Why are there two identical organs onstage? Why doesn’t the guy from the Doors play the one that’s already there? Why did he have to bring up a duplicate organ?’ You see, man, it’s absurd.” Wrong word. Pig Pen didn’t like that word. His face scrunched up. Absurd was not a word that was used in the Grateful Dead camp. Too revealing. Too pointed. Even too inner-directed. The Doors, at least Jim and Ray, used the word freely. After all, isn’t the post–World War II second half of the twentieth century totally absurd? Do we have to add to the absurdity? Isn’t the whole point of psychedelics to break down the walls of absurdity and reestablish a divine intuition amongst the human species on this good earth? Well, of course it is. And the Grateful Dead is supposed to be psychedelic, but here I am having an absurd conversation with a person called Pig Pen. Man! “Nobody uses the Grateful Dead’s equipment,” he finally said. It was like the Dead party line and he had it well memorized. “I’m not asking to use the Dead’s equipment. I know these amps are all custom built for you guys. We’ll use our own amps. And we’ll use our own drums.” “Damn right you will,” Pig grunted. He was getting testy. “I know every drummer has his own setup. But the Vox organ…it’s generic.” “What…?” “They’re all the same! Yours is just like mine. They’re identical. It would be so clean and easy if I didn’t have to bring mine up.” I gave him my best back-slapping smile of camaraderie. “What do ya say, man? Come on, can I use your organ?” He paused for a couple of beats. Nice dramatic moment, I thought. Then the hammer…“No way, Jack. I told you, no one uses the Grateful Dead’s equipment.” And he turned and lumbered off, into the miasma. I gave his retreating back a peace sign and muttered to myself…“Share and share alike, ehh, brother?” Then more loudly to his rear end girth…“Peace and love, man.” He didn’t even hear me. He was lost in his own little world. His very secure little world. It was an absurd encounter." -- Thanks Mr. Dc for mentioning that. I didn't know about this tale.

Does seem like the typical opener/headliner dynamics at work. There might be some slight exaggeration in there :-) "guitars are tuned to some arcane, eccentric mode that each musician has kept as his own private secret, not telling the fellow next to him what the mode is..."

...Jim Morrison faked his death in Paris. He is alive and well and living in South Africa, or Honduras... or maybe Las Vegas, I hear he's a big fan of the all-you-can-eat buffets.

....ABSURD.

I've been listening to road trips Austin 1971 November 15th getting ready for Dave's picks 26. The Sound quality is really really good. I have not listen to this in a long time. And the set list is really really good. I hope Dave's picks 26 sounds this good.

From what I understand, Jerry was commenting on how the doors sounded in 1966 or very early 67. At that time, the Doors had cheaper equipment and did alot more covers. Weird to see Jerry slam another group of musicians in such a harsh and dismissive way, especially if it was just based off a couple early shows he saw before they had even really become the Doors we all know and had their sound dialed in. There is the story of Ray Manzerek and Pigpen having a heated exchange over the use of some keyboards during a show in which they were both billed, I think that indident could actually be one of the main reasons Jerry had such hard feelings towards them. I personally really enjoy quite a few of the Door's available live recordings, and I don't seem to find their sound to be nearly as "thin" as most people do. Maybe that thin sound, just sounds to me like how the Doors are supposed to sound.

Thanks Rejoi29 - I'll check it out. Maybe the first album had no bass player? Who knows. From Rolling Stone: "The Doors famously lacked a bassist during live sets, instead relying on Ray Manzarek's Fender Rhodes' keyboard bass to lock into the rhythm with Densmore. For their studio albums, the band quietly supplemented their core lineup with session pros handling the low end. Some of these contributions were overdubbed separately from the band, but for L.A. Woman, they wanted the live sound of musicians playing together. Botnick suggested Jerry Scheff, fresh from backing Elvis Presley at Las Vegas' International Hotel. Morrison, a massive Presley fan, was thrilled. So was Densmore. " Again, I love the Doors. Always have - listened to them a TON in high school (very high...). I just never dug their live stuff - was always disappointed when I tracked down the DATs... similar to Jerry's "I can't put my finger on it but it didn't grab me".... It was when I heard that other band a few months ago and started talking to the B3 player about how (and why) he likes having a string bass on stage that it clicked - that's why I brought it up.