• 8,086 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    10/3/87

    Nice show Deadvikes. Nothing mind blowing but a good solid 87 outing. Always enjoy Pocky Way, and Candyman too. We got an Esau in there which some don’t get, but I always liked it because it was an unusual song and a change of pace. Bird Song and TMNS to round out the first. Loved the Maggie’s>>Cumberland. Don’t think I’ve heard that combo? Don’t think I’ve heard them do Maggie’s with just JG and Bob either? I’m Used to the big 4 vocal versions post Brent. So yeah their taking it higher untiiilllll ittttt comesss backkk downnnn with LL Rain, meh,... nice solid Terrapin with JG steady and confident, not a sizzler but we’ll played. Yes after that it’s sort status quo time to bring it home, but enjoyed Stella, and Quinn is a nice alternative to the more usual encores. All in all I nice little show.
    As far as Ultramatrix, some seem a little dull sounding to me, some too metally, or I guess that could just as well be the metal tape?, but for this show the one I listened to I thought was really good. Personally I’ll take a good matrix over a SB any day, cause sorry folks but a dry SB feed is not what it sounded like live! To me some of the old stuff folks go on about I think are hard to listen to, especially the vocals and often the bass.
    But of course compared to most Audi’s back then the SBs are a step up, and though I’m a audiophile, I’ll take a hot show via a lesser recording than a perfectly sounding dud, but that’s just me. I guess I’ve never really been a “taper” and I don’t mean necessarily someone who actually tapes. To me it’s always been sort of a click, a club, a cultural thing. And I think their mentality has sometimes biased things in a limiting way, again, that’s just me. I love Dave, and think he does a great job, but he suffers from this bias too. Sorry, not trying to be negative and didn’t mean to ramble, just say I prefer a good matrix. Although nothing beats a multitrack from most any era!
    I wonder if ULTRAMATRIX is named somehow due to the Dead/Ultra Sound relationship. Don Pearson was I believe the Meyers Ultra Sound representative with the Dead who worked closely with Healy to tweak the system etc. So I’m curious if these new Pearson matrix’s we’ve been seeing are ones he perhaps took care of some of the tape mix while Dan did his thing, or are they separate some how from Healys normal feed/mix? Definitely would love to know more about all this!
    Ok, Summers here and the time is right for some 85 Dancin’ in the streets! Woo-hoo, of to Alpine!

    EDIT: I think maybe y’all’s reading into Bolos post too much...sounds like he’s trying to Huck Finn your asses to come clean out his garage 😉

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    10/3/87 and 6/21/85 and Contest

    Fun to watch yesterdays show as well as listen to it.
    Watched VFTV III for the first part of Set 1 & YouTube for the rest.

    I'd say it's a good show, but not great.
    They lost me with the 2nd set LLR and for me it felt pretty routine after that.

    Much better stuff earlier in the year ;)

    It might've also been that I'd listened to 8/3/02 The Other Ones for the first time earlier in the day.
    That was pretty far out!

    It makes you think what could've been..

    Speaking of LLR, 6/21/85 is playing over here and we've got a Set 1 LLR > Day Job closer. Uhh...

    Fortunately I know that Estimated is a smoker, can't really remember the rest, and therefore I will relisten.

    BTW any ideas on that there BOLO Contest?

    Minus the plagiarized lines from Raiders, I've got nothing.

    Have A Grate Day!

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    UltraMatrix

    Hiya

    DEADVIKES - Lots to see & hear in 1987.
    The ULTRAMATRIX are essentially matrix tapes that Dan Healy made. Healy would record the crowd / ambience and blend that in with the SBD feed to create a more live sound. He was experimenting with it for awhile, but 1987 seems to be when he focused (exclusively?) on it, could be wrong on that. So most of the Tapes from the time period he was doing this, sound like a matrix tape with audience noise (sometimes way too much) and are called ULTRAMATRIX or ULTRAMIX.

    The Spring Tour of '87 unfortunately, appears to be when Healy was figuring out how much of this ambience he wanted on the tape, and IMO those tapes tend to have too much ambience making them sound more like an Audience recording than the '85 crystal clear SBDs we'd come accustom to.

    I was super stoked after Spring '87 shows to get the tapes, I wanted a dope SBD of those shows so I could see if what I thought I saw was amazing as I felt it was. So I waited and waited and waited. Never could find one, instead I had what sounded like a pretty good audience tape. Turns out it was a muddy transfer of Healy's ULTRAMATRIX recordings and the crystal clear SBD never appeared. In 2017-2019 Charlie Miller started to post some Upgrades of the ULTRAMATRIX cassette masters from I believe Joani Walker. Hopefully there's some even better transfers brewing in the Don Pearson stash that have been trickling out, I guess we'll see.

    Some love em, some hate em.. yada yada. I'm still curious about whether or not in cases where what circulates is an UltraMatrix if there is also a "clean" SBD tape as well in the Vault. It would appear that the answer would be "sometimes". For example 3/26/87 what circulates is the Healy ULTRAMATRIX but there appears to also be a straight SBD of this show, which Dave L. played on Taper's Section (BTW it was DL's first show & a Charlie Miller Fave and worth checking out!). I'd love to find out that the Vault has "clean" SBDs of all these shows in addition to the ULTRAMATRIX that circulate, but I think that's probably not the case, or we'd have heard more. It's possible though, and it's probably more of a case of they have some but not all. I guess time will tell if we live long enough.

    I've been trying to find out since '87 so yeah, don't hold your breath.

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    10/3/87

    Hey Pocky Way through My Brother Esau are included as bonus footage on View from the Vault III. Great stuff.

    Bird Song is hot. Maggie's Farm Cumberland, oh yeah! Stella Blue is moving. Quinn the Eskimo finish, yes!

    Can anybody explain what an ultra matrix recording is? I am familiar matrix recordings (Dave's #8).

    Time to do some more research on 87. A lot to offer. Don't think we will ever see an 87 Dave's Picks release, but man, it would be cool.

  • bob t
    Joined:
    Check out 10/14 & 10/15 76... Forum shows

    10/15/76 Set II Is really strong, Eyes of the World>Music Never Stopped start set II, and an ending stretch of The Other One>Comes A Time>Franklin's Tower>Sugar Magnolia... One caveat is the board ends during Comes A Time, but the audience is Betrando!!! 4 days after Oakland shows... bob t

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    We Have Top Men Working On It Now

    Where Is The Ark?

    I thought we'd settled that.

    The Ark is somewhere very safe.

    From Whom?

    The Ark is a source of unspeakable power and it has to be researched.

    And it will be I assure you Dr. Broady, Dr. Jones.

    Bureaucratic fools, they don't know what they've got there.

  • Gollum
    Joined:
    Bolo's clues

    Does this mean we will finally be getting the Ark 69 box?! Bolo's clues are usually much more elusive, but then again, we've all been waiting on this box a long time already....hmmm

  • bolo24
    Joined:
    Hmm...may have to do another contest!

    I was unaware that a shirtless Jerry photo might be a rare thing, especially since lots of folks carried cameras for those outdoor shows back then.

    So, here's the contest: come on over to my house, garage, attic or perhaps my storage unit. Whoever finds the photograph can keep it.

    One caveat: you know the warehouse scene at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"? Yeah, its kinda like that. Good luck!

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Rocktober again it is!

    10/10/76 yesterday and 10/3/87 today.
    Another great 76 that was put in perspective from that interesting post about DOG and specifically The Who/Dead shows. (Thanks for that GOGD) But now we REALLY need Bolos pics!
    Personally these shows, and this release, just rose in status. Not only cause it’s sum good sheet mon, but because they BROUGHT it even though it sounds like they were dealing with three main things R&R bands hate:
    - getting up and playing early
    - an empty venue
    - opening for another bands fans who aren’t interested etc

    Dead Workingmen indeed! Not only that, they stick around and party, with JG dancin topless. Many bands would have been whiney beeatches, played short and shity, and took there toys and went home. No these boys were true professionals. Sure they probably were compensated well, and helps the ole BGP relationship, and they might even have asked to play first, considering Monterey. I’m sure there were plenty of heads there, and it was a nearby home show, but still, the level of playing and energy on these fine shows are only enhanced by the fact that they did so in spite of the situation. Cudos to all on a fine release. Can’t believe it took me so long to grab this one...Man I dig 76 more and more!
    10/10 was another fine show, and I dug the space. That’s a couple times now I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a 76 space! Love the 1st set Dancin>>Wharf Rat>>Dancin, had to check, thought it was into the second set and I missed something, lol. Overall though, I think I prefer 10/9 just because I’m a sucker for those awesome, tight, segways ala 7/18/76. If I didn’t have such a good CD FM? original source? copy of 7/18/76 that I got on amazon?, anyway, if I didn’t have such a good copy I’d be lobbying non stop, as that show has been a WTF since way back when. It was one of my first tapes back in 77, and being a relatively low gen FM, it was probably one of my early tapes that really sounded good. Yeah that ones a beast, but I digress.
    So, onto 10/3/87 today from the wonderful month of rocktober. I believe theres YouTube video of it so maybe I’ll wait and watch it tonight on the big screen? If not, that matrix vguy dialed up looks good. Hell maybe I’ll end up doing both ; )
    Rock on brothers and sisters, and here’s to Rocktober! But looking forward to my personal summer 85 adventure starting manana

    EDIT: duh, almost forgot. Happy Happy to the “Janes” (and I believe I missed the sixtuses too?) so happy, happy, joy, joy and many more to y’all! Also, thanks for the kind words, and I just knew KCJ would understand these predicaments, ahem, lol. Bot oh, the busted counter was in the room, the kid was in the lobby. If I would of walked into the lobby and tried that shit without a bunch of families and travelers of all ilks, I don’t things would of worked out so well. Power in numbers folks, lol

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    10.3.87's Minglewood....

    ...."stay right her in, where are we?....garbage heap. Where the little girls know what to do." I totally remember this show now. Played this tape A LOT back in the day.

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Please give the date of the show, not just the release identifier.
My shows are organized by date.
Thanks.

Edit:
Just figured out what DP22 is. I listened to those shows a few weeks ago and so will pass.

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Snowed here in WI, too. Yet, I finished the lawn raking. Go figure. Are you sure it wasn't Graupel (snow pellets)?

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....got the Galaxy S20+ at the beginning of March. My old phone was circa 2014. Was time for an upgrade. Came with an early order credit of $150. Used that towards Buds+'s. Testing them now during 2.23/24.68 Tahoe. Not bad.
Then I heard about all the 5G shit. Can't win for losing i guess.

RT 3.1. Fun to revisit this one - been a long long time. Totally forgot that it had that awesome Terrapin > Playing. BITD I had a cassette from a friend who labeled it "Terrapin > Playing > Jam > Yikes!!" At one point it seems like Brent was channeling his inner Ned Lagin (fully approve!)

Looking forward to visiting Santa Fe later today. Never given that legendary show a deep listen. Anybody got rec as to what source? Notice that there's an Usborne matrix.

Pick of the day reminds me of a college literature class - 4 days in and it feels like already a week behind. Tahoe is gonna have to wait.

Wichita - real bounce in their step whole show. I think '72 is my favorite "era" for Other One. Some really great Keith piano in there. Always sweet when they drop from one of these into some slow heartfelt beauty like Brokedown. When are we gonna get 9-28-72?

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If I told you all that went down it would burn off both of your ears.

Viola Lee Blues 19:15 pure bliss
Hurts Me Too 4:13
Dark Star 6:49 nice transition>
China Cat Sunflower 4:38 best ever?
The Eleven 10:33 fantastic
Turn On Your Lovelight 12:40 nice little boogie
Born Cross-Eyed 2:32 yes
Spanish Jam 7:23 wow
Morning Dew 8:10 nice
Good Morning Little Schoolgirl 14:39 sweet blues jam
That's It For The Other One 8:13 okay
New Potato Caboose 9:08 Heavenly
Alligator 3:45 okay
China Cat Sunflower 4:14
The Eleven 7:17
Alligator 6:39 oh yeah, an 11 jam
Caution (Do Not Stop On Tracks) 11:49 see that train a comin', wow excellent!!
Feedback 4:55

Feb 1968 Jerry played a - Gold-top Les Paul with P-90 single coil p/u's. 3 Twin Reverbs, 2 Fender 4x12 cabinets, JBL D120 speakers

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Stoked, unfortunately have to make a death run first; ACE for varnish, and PO. Don’t ya know almost finished with more book shelves for Lovey and I’m out of Varnish, Doooaahh! At least it’s pre-order curb side. PO I’m afraid I might have to go in and stand in line for a package (clothes for her, to go to a wedding, that we already dropped non refundable mucho dineros, that were probably not going to be able to attend).....
But I’ll be firing that up this afternoon once I have the goods....going to try the Siemens matrix. Never been as enamored with SB recordings as most. I feel there is nothing like a good matrix, more natural sounding....

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....actually does sound better boros. Thanks!✌
https://archive.org/details/gd1983-09-10.139379.mtx.seamons.ht112.flac16
Opens with Music Never Stopped. Bobby botches half the lyrics, but, as usual, the boyz make up for it with a smoking end jam.
TLEO follows. Jerry and Brent in SYNC!! Thats my wedding song btw. 20 years strong!
I really, really dig these two shows.

....to end the first. Storm clouds were rolling in and rumor has it, this show had one of the longest set breaks of all time. Waiting for the weather. Pics show that they didn't have a covering over the stage, just the rigging (see my avatar). The China Rider segue is bopping!! Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile.

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Music, holy crap, energy of a set 2 opener; TLEO, nice pace mellow and jammy; Esau, it's nice; Big RR and BIODTL fast songs didn't work here(maybe a Bird Song or Row J.); Tenn Jed back on track; Minglewood, smoking; China>Rider rockin' nice transition, wish I was a headlight...

Woman R, nice energy; Cumberland, foot stomping, Phil bombs; Playin, really nice jam; China Doll, beautiful; Jam Drums, Space really great; TOO, trembled and exploded; GDTRFB, OMSN, rockin'; CR&S the only time they encored with CR&S.

...."If its any comfort to anyone, on this date in 1890 in Cairo Illinois, it rained fish."
https://www.loc.gov/everyday-mysteries/item/can-it-rain-frogs-fish-and-…
Lolololol.
For the record, the fact that there is a second set Cumberland with bombs never swayed my opinion of this show. 😜

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Had some family issues to deal with the last couple days, so I'm behind a bit. Halfway through RT 3.1, hope to get through the rest of that one and Santa Fe by tomorrow morning. Kinda fun listening to shows that haven't been in the rotation for a few years. SO much good stuff - we are blessed indeed!

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In reply to by bolo24

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....in all good time Bolo. Hope all is well. Meanwhile, Phil is laying some serious brickwork towards the project that is PITB.

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....the only ballad in the second set was China Doll. Albeit played at 1.5× speed, the outro jam is delicious. More Lost Sailor teases from Bobby during space with a dash of Heaven Help The Fool.
At the 9:10 mark they finally decide on The Other One. 9:10 mark. I still don't believe in coincidences. Cool Space.

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In reply to by Vguy72

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....to be honest, I can't remember the last time I actually listened to one. Shame on me.

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....and it gives me chills. Wonderful!!!
Phil steps up to Bobbys mic at 4:36.
Thanks for playing. See yall later.
9.11 up next, because why not?

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....features a raucous Greatest Story and an early Hell In A Bucket that was just spreading its wings. Good stuff.
Still enjoying the ride. Kinda bumpy lately, but enjoying nonetheless.
West LA up. One of the most covered songs by them, because West LA.
Saw a picture of LA today. No smog. Actually a beautiful looking city.

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One of the high points of my life. Turbo Tom drove down from Kiowa, Montana , picked me up where I was living north of Taos and we made our way to the Santa Fe Downs. We camped next to the parking area where the Hog Farm was helping out. The Sikhs were security (Akal Security) for the Downs. Both days were amazing. And it was harvest season. The two shows were far from sold out. Many of the old guard long hairs from northern New Mexico were in attendance. Just thinking about those two concerts is like a memory from the Golden Eternity.
I’m most of the way through the first set. Earbuds , iPhone and cell tower signal up in the mountains to access this.
Great call V-guy 72!

....they played three shows there. These two, plus a one off in '82. On off as in no tour. 13 song first set if I recall correctly. Just decided to pop into Santa Fe. Plangent it and box it and ship it.
I'll pay $99.99 US dollars.
Alaska would work too. I'll pony up three moose pelts.

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When I moved down from Montana in January 1982 I lived ten miles north of Taos on north Hondo Mesa in the “kiva” in the Grow-hole. (Built by the alternative school the Taos Learning Center TLC in the early 70s) Lived in a tipi and then the “Pyramid Cube” on El Salto Mountain for the next five years. Spring of 1987 I moved to Grant County and worked trails in the Gila. Also have worked many years up in Gallup. (Trail work and Public Radio)
Another side bar on the Santa Fe Dead shows. The state penitentiary is just a couple miles from the Santa Fe Downs. Bobby Petersen (Unbroken Chain, Pride of Cucamonga) arranged with the authorities at the prison to transmit a low wattage FM signal live broadcast direct from the Downs. Bobby used to live on Lama Mountain up in Taos County not to mention Robert Hunter spent time living on Canyon Road in Santa Fe in the 60s and visited Taos at different times. And contrary to rumors , the Dead did not play at New Buffalo Commune in the 60s. I asked one of the founders last summer , Rick Klein who helped start Buffalo in 67 that very question. Not the Dead but the Eagles played at New Buffalo. Also Laird Grant (Jerry’s longest time friend) used to live at Morning Star above Arroyo Hondo.
The skies are the most consistently clear of pollution day after day for the past three weeks than for the better part of the past 40 plus years. And I’m talking the mountain west.

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....northern NM does have energy. The Taos hum proves that. Gallup was always a pit stop for me.
9.11.83 has a Morning Dew.
Where have all the people gone today??

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In reply to by Vguy72

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Good work Vguy.

Looking forward to the next pick.

This has been a fun week, good idea Bolo.

Be well people.

Did you catch the Shakedown Stream?
Pretty cool. Dave, can't sit still. He mentioned 50-70 or so high quality video in the Vault from 89-95. Intriguing to me, not sure if they will put any more of it out, but I would love to see it. Man, how about putting out the Spring 90 Tour on video? I would volunteer to help out on that project.

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Should not have passed this one by.

ps Feb '68 this is what I think heaven must be like.

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Been working in the garage last few days and the energy from both DP 22 and 9/10/83 has made things fly by!
Gave Santa Fe another listen last night because I was diggin it and wanted to give it a better listen than the first time. Great 83 show, fun, spirited show with interesting sets. Might just give the next night a spin today while I work.
Guessing perhaps partially why that China-rider is in overdrive might be due to the deluge that was obviously happening as Bob says something like “we’ll be back when it stops raining”. I might contribute the pace solely to “other” things except it’s not like all the songs were that fast and it wasn’t right after break? So to go from normal 83 tempo to warp drive just then, and since they didn’t have full canopy etc, makes me think they were trying hard to get the fug outta there lol.

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I like 9/10 a little better both are great. There are two grate audience recordings of these shows in hi-rez maybe a matrix box.

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China Cat Sunflower / I Know You Rider had me dancing in the dark last night. Gonna listen to the second set today. You know, land of manana , New Mexico stylie. Damn this is a long set break!

May I make a suggestion inspired by Bolo's idea? I think a "Pick Of The Week" is more workable. I think one person should make the selection and at the same time designate the next picker. So on Monday let's say JiminMd makes a pick and names the next picker who will announce his pick the following Monday and the next picker etc etc. Hey I know I'm in social isolation at least through May and I think Bolo's idea is great but it needs some structure. I also know I've been drinking and I have no idea if anything I've said makes any sense. Also I just finished 4/11/72 and I think it's probably the weakest show of the tour.

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In reply to by mhammond12

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That appeals to me a bit more. I am still following my own unplanned trail through shows, so the pick of the day was on top of what I was already listening to. The result was I got left behind straight away and decided to drop out. A weekly pick would obviously give us more time, and wouldn't intrude on where we feel we are supposed to go.

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Another vote for Mhammonds idea. Gives us all a chance to give these the attention they deserve. Goddamn work has been interfering with my listening sessions :-)

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Maybe finish 2nd set today. 9/11/83 was amazing also.
Happy Easter! Be safe everyone.

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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I listened to 12-28-79 a day late and haven’t done the others so far.
Looks like I have 9-10,11-83 on a HD but they haven’t migrated to my music player yet. Might do that later today, but first yard work calls.

For my easy-listening, coffee-drinking routine to get today going I went with 10-10-80 Acoustic.
But that just finished.

So onward with 1-24,25,26-69 % which is compiled from the AOXOMOXOA-50th bonus disc, AOXOMOXOA-Golden Road Box filler, and a portion of Live Dead. Such things are possible with my collection because I organize by show date, not by the arbitrary order that shows are released.

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In reply to by bolo24

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I think we only had 3-4 picks last week. Now that we are through the Holiday, maybe we could get back at it. Seems like every other day is doable for most. Either way we need a new pick from someone. I already had one last week. Would like us to stick to official releases. Just my thoughts.

Be well people.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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12-2-73, part of DP14

The remainder of DP14, 11-30-73%, can also be done as extra credit.

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Not like I’m a regular here, but did jump in at (under)ground level. 50 year anniversary , 30 Trips around the Sun. Winterland. What’s not to love. “ let me hear you say; WAAAAA!!”

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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Just started :)

I've always preferred this part of the pick to the 11/30 portion (which isn't to say the first part is any slouch!) I think a part of it is that "Morning Dew" always seems to work better as a closer than an opener, at least for me. The second disc of this portion (or disc 4 of the set,) is just exactly perfect!

Happy Listening!

EDIT: Oh yeah, this is the show where Phil hassles the guy in the audience - "Who are you? The heat? Someone shine a light on this guy..." Kind of a jerk..

Peace

I had to take a break for some work related conference calls just as Weather Report was moving into Let it Grow, but I picked back up and am now into "Nobody's Fault" jam territory. This was a great release of a great show! As I mentioned, I prefer this one to 11/30, but I think I will have to def. go back and hit some of those highlights (maybe all of disc 2,) after this.

That being said, it is really hard to beat this second set, that though very short, contains some FAR OUT there stuff... Wharf Rat, Playin, He's Gone, Truckin, Stella, Dew - all heavyweights in my all-time favorite GD tunes list.

Good choice, IceCream!

Peace

(EDIT: Whoops, I forgot 1/2 Step - another gem!)

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Matrix of 12/1/73 - the show Dick forgot.

https://archive.org/details/gd1973-12-01.124132.mtx.dusborne.flac16/gd7…

It's got a "Sugaree", a "China>Rider", and a "Playin'>UJB>Playin'" - and so far, this Matrix sounds pretty darn good. I've never listened to this show, so it's a treat :)

I suppose this is for those students that not only want extra-credit, but are looking to write a master's thesis, or simply polish them apples into a 110%.

Peace

EDIT: After LLR, Phil says to the crowd "Be quiet over there, can't you see our piano players trying to tune up?" Seriously, what crawled up his %%# during this run?