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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • #7711
    The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    DEADVIKES - Alpine

    So cool to hear those Alpine Memories!

    Two back at ya.

    6/26/87 - 1st Night - Set 2 - China Cat Midi weirdness. The weather was getting ominous, my first show at Alpine, was totally ripped, and I start hearing horns and weird shit, I’m trying to see the stage, thinking is there a guest performer or something, more midi weirdness in Eyes > Drums, I didn’t know what Midi was or how they were doing that, it was eating my mind, by the time they got to the ripping All Along The Watchtower (broke out 6/20/87 that year, so it was new) the weather had gotten pretty dicey, that Watchtower sounded truly Wicked in it’s delivery and tone. The boys laid it on us that night. I bought the ticket and took the ride. It’s a night I’ve always remembered. We slowly strolled out of the show went and found our tent, partied, crashed, woke up and did it again the next day in the sun!

    1988 - 2 shows, break, 2 more shows - Yeah it was hot and dry as dirt that summer as reported. I loved the break day.. we were kids, so not having water didn’t seem to effect us, we were probably drinking soda.. who knows. But we hopped in my buddy’s convertible on the day off, drove around until we spotted a pool in someones back yard, and we all ran and hopped in it to cool off and get a dip, then ran back to the car dripping wet, dived in and sped off. It felt so good, we were so hot and dirty and it was dry as a bone. Sorry folks, but we needed your pool and you weren’t in it.

    At the time I never thought those would be the days, but those were the days!

    THE TAPES:
    Sadly the Alpine tapes seem to have issues.
    1987 - No SBDs in Circulation still! Been waiting for 33 years, and even if we had them, which we don’t, they probably sound like ass, like so many ’87 shows. Healy was experimenting with UltraMatrix that year and lots of ambient noise got baked into most of those tapes.

    1988 - Healy strikes again! Dan was doing some type of panning of the sound through the speakers, I can’t remember where I read / heard, think it was GD Hour, maybe Lemieux. Anyhow, it creates a type of “warble” sound in the recording, I’ve got those SBDs and they’re a bit hard to listen to due to the consistent “warble” through out. All 4 nights have it, I think the last night has it least.

    Another Flash - 6/20/88 - The sun setting as they played Terrapin. I still remember that as a favorite moment, was way back on the hill on the lawn lots a space, just taking it in, looking at the moon. I’d just seen a new Brent Song (Turned out to be first Blow Away unbeknown to us at the time / pre-internet / phones / technology) and that had rocked me, we were big Brent Fans.

    1989 - Well those are some good tapes!!

    But that’s another tale, and I wasn’t at those shows..

    Memories:)

  • #7712
    Thats_Otis
    Joined:
    Early Morning Jamming - BCT 8/25/72

    Got out of bed way too early for some reason, but had a chance to put on today's pick and listen to most of set 1 without interruption. Really strong 1st set! I love the placement of "Black Peter" and all of the regular tunes are played very well. Just finished with that beautiful "Bird Song" before the wife came down and life started again, so I am going to have to save "Playin'", "Bertha" and the short Set II for later on today, but that 1st set was a great way to start the day!

    For no good reason at all, this is another pick that doesn't get as much play from me, but after this morning's initial listen, I think that is going to change!

    Peace

  • #7713
    Strider 808808
    Joined:
    8/25/72 BCT

    Mark me down with it

  • #7714
    Dennis
    Joined:
    Jim and the Ex

    >>>>>The real kick in the ass is, she also threw away all my pictures, every single one... simply because some contained pics of me that included ex girlfriends.

    That's a shame, a damn shame. The was just before she died in that tragic kayak accident, right? The river was running hard and fast and you begged her not to go out that day. It was only by the grace of GOD did you survive. I read the report about how you kept diving into the cold water time and time again to look for her, but, alas she was gone. But that's one secret you can never tell.

  • #7715
    unkle sam
    Joined:
    5/21/77

    @ Good old Grateful Dead: I had to think about this one, that was a long time ago, and it was my first dead show. What I do remember about the show was the crowd, what a cool bunch of people, and the twirlers, my first time seeing them and they were everywhere, in the back, in the halls, in the bathrooms, everywhere there was a space, they were twirling. I'm pretty sure we all dosed that night, we did that a lot in the 70's. I have Dick's picks 29 which has this show and the Atlanta show if I'm not mistaken and the band was in tune and doing the "just exactly perfect" thing but I don't remember one tune they played that night. I also remember the tye dye, it was also everywhere and the stage had a huge tye dye mural in the background, most of the speaker covers were tye dyed too, as were a lot of the crowd.
    I had heard a few dead songs before going to this show and was interested, but not a deadhead yet and believe it or not, this show did not transform me into one, not that night anyway, it was the April 80 show that did that. I remember getting close enough to get a good look at Donna on stage, she was ok but I had seen bands with chick singers and she just did not impress me. I prefered Grace who in my opinion had a much better voice and was just lovely to look at. With that said I do believe that it was Donna that left me uninspired and the main reason I did not get on the bus that night. I think a lot has to happen for one to get "it" and this performance just didn't have it and the civic center, even tho it was newish, having opened in the 70's, it was still a cavern with not the best acoustics. But three years later, I jumped on the bus big time and turned a lot of younger heads later on to this band, still my favorite band after 40 + years.

  • #7716
    fourwindsblow
    Joined:
    Fox Th. 1980 matrix?

    Did Bolo24 just say were are getting another Fox Th. 1980 matrix? woohoo!

  • #7717
    fourwindsblow
    Joined:
    GOGD

    "What’s your Favorite Year seeing shows?"

    I would have to go with '89. Saw shows spring summer and fall and they were all great shows.

    Civic Arena Pittsburgh both nights. released
    Closing JFK Philadelphia. released audio and video
    Spectrum Philadelphia all three nights. will be released one day

  • #7718
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    GOGD

    Alpine 87-88. Those were some unbelievable times.
    Like Jim, I do not remember all the shows song by song like some others do, but, for some reason the first night of the 87 Alpine run, I can still remember the Feel Like a Stranger opener and my buddies and I running down the hill to try and find a spot. I always remember the Tons of Steel from that night as well. What a time! 87 for us was different from our first experience at Alpine in 86. Of course it was two weeks or so after that Jerry slipped into the comma. At the time, I didn't think we would get to see the band again. What a run after that!
    GOGD, do you remember the drought in 88 at Alpine? It was crazy. We had campers in those days 87-89. I just remember 88 was so hot and we always had tons of people coming to our camper looking for water. In those days, we had tons of beer, but not much water.
    Some of my best memories of all those years at Alpine was after the shows in the parking lot talking to other heads about all aspects of the shows, the band, Jerry, what the encore will be the next night, etc. Similar to what we do here. Man, seems like so long ago, but I think about those days a lot and no band has ever come close to that feeling of seeing the Dead live. There are a huge group of people here that were at those shows at Alpine, this one is for you guys and gals!
    At some point in time, we will see some of these late 80s Alpine shows released.

    My wife has asked me as I am watching the Shakedown Stream shows, we will see you in the crowd on some of these?
    My response, only if they play Downhill from Here.

    Stay well.

  • #7719
    JimInMD
    Joined:
    ..my first, vividly.

    4/19/82, Baltimore Civic Center. Don't need no stinking ticket stub to remember that. Electric.

    Buckeye Lake.... fun indeed.

  • #7720
    Vguy72
    Joined:
    Buckeye Lake....

    ....that was fun indeed. Tom Thumbs. Righteous.

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Submitted by marye on
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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 07:21

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Morning.. 2nd cup of coffee (the first strains of IKYR from Feb 26 ’73 play in the background.)

FWB - Just digging in to 1973-02-26 - I can’t remember the last time I listened to this release, I’m thinking it was def underplayed due to it’s incompleteness… I made a playlist to include missing tracks from official release. So far 2/26 is sounding like stellar February ’73 Dead fo sure!

DaveRock - Thanks Man! And I might say the same for you & yours;) Roky rocks!
(it’s actually an Animated Gif, but it’s not animating here..)

Vguy72 - Cpt Crunchy Dead!
You nailed it, I almost changed my Avatar to the Captain based on this comment and it made me LOL, it mighta been the music, mighta been the weed, but that describes 1967-10-22… Crunch-A-Tize Me Cap’N!

Be Well, Play Dead!

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Submitted by bob t on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 07:56

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2/9 or 2/15 would be a great first release of the year for a Dave's Picks!! Have fun with 2/26 and 2/28!!! bob t

BOB T - I agree about Feb 73!

Like I was saying earlier I hadn’t listened to 2/9 in forever, as it was one of the first SBDs I grabbed when I got back into collecting in say 2009-2010 ish and it was one of the first 5 SBD tapes I ever had back when I was 15.

So I dusted off that way neglected gem a week or so ago as the virus surged and sat in my backyard and took the trip… that show is so amazing on so many levels.

I’d love to see both 2/9/73 & 2/15/73 officially released! (nudge nudge Lemieux)

After that I wanted to hear more Feb 73 and therefore picked DiP V28 for this here get together. About to head into some Dark Star and see where this day goes.

LAF848 - 10/22/67 is GREAT JAMS for Sure, I enjoyed that pick big time. Thanks for that suggestion peeps!

Have fun indeed.

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 09:40

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First psychedelic band out of Texas. Not to mention Sir Douglas Quintet. Maybe Sir Doug Sahm was the first.
Watched GD movie last night from “a cave up in he hills”. Those were the days.
Healing thoughts for Bolo and family. Healing thoughts for any Deadheads, GD family who are dealing with some bad cards with this crisis.

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Submitted by bob t on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 10:44

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But all this Feb 73 talk and right into 2/15/73 Dark Star!! Phil is jamming right now and I can't wait for the the Jerry playing!! so beautiful

He came to England round about 2007. I can't remember a time when I felt so excited waiting to see a performer walk out on stage as I did waiting for Roky. Probably seeing the Dead in 1981 and 1990. But it was quite something, having read all I could about him since the 70s to see him stride out and wave to the crowd. He sounded great, too. He played virtually the whole of that album he made of songs based on horror themes-I Walked With A Zombie, The Creature With The Atom Brain etc. Sadly, the only Elevators song he sang was You're Gonna Miss Me, which was the encore. But what the hell. He came back to do show shortly before he died, but I didn't find out about that one until too late.
Right...I'll leave you in peace now !

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Submitted by Thats_Otis on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 11:11

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Thank you for the notice that this was on sale at Real Gone! This is one of 11 from the series that I am missing, and of those, a 73 release sounds just exactly perfect (now, if I can only find a decently priced #19...)

Anyway, I am going to wait to listen to this one, so today I have been rocking 4/17/83 Matrix from the Archive. Great, high energy show, sweet jamming, Phil and Brent sound particularly good. Stephen Stills guests in the 2nd set for "Love the One Your With" and sounds terrible, but otherwise it is a pretty sweet show. Here's a link for those interested:

https://archive.org/details/gd1983-04-17.138277.mtx.dusborne.flac16/gd8…

May I suggest Dave's 8 - 11/30/80 Fox Theater for tomorrow's listen? One of the best of the series, and a great show for a Sunday.

Also, I know that we are looking to stick to official releases, but that leaves SO MANY incredible shows just waiting in the LMA... many of which would be new to most. Just sayin...

Peace

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 15:00

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More about fox, animal good
fox news, no good

The good fox it is , the animal ? No, the Theater

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 17:47

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VGUY72 - You should be at just about the masterpiece zone of that there show in Lincoln.

Dark Star > Eyes > Half-Step will take you there!

I had a fun time in '73 today, glad you guys brought up these Brendan Byrne Arena (or was it called Meadownlands?) Stephen Stills shows.

I needed to upgrade to the 2017 Miller versions. They sound better than I’ve ever heard them.
Love the Early Bro Esau
Slipknot is great!!
heading into the Playing zone.

Is it me or is ’83 awesome? oh and ’84, ’85, ’87 Oh man… love the ‘80s.
Good Stuff!

Enjoy the ride..

Listened again today. Such a solid release. Sound quality of these two shows from Dick's #28 is outstanding. 73 is so good. Has there been a subpar 73 release? I don't think so. Great groove to this show. First set is stellar. Solid Big Railroad Blues, Loose Lucy. Second set is crazy good. One of my favorite Dark Starsz again really groovy.
Great pick GOGD.

I am in for Dave's 8. Love 1980! Still believe we have a good chance for the fall 1980 box this fall.

Conekid. Cracked into my first Bell's Oberons of 2020. So good. Always taste the best when the season starts.

Be well folks.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Sat, 04/18/2020 - 20:20

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OTIS - 1980-11-30 sounds fun, I'll plan on it.
You're gonna be happy when you get DiP V28 that was fun to hear again.

1983-04-17 is a killer. I always loved the sloppy LTOYW and used to try and make people listen to my crappy cassette version when I was a teenager. Nobody got it..

I can kinda see why now, Stills is just screaming out of key, I'd like to see Jerry's face during that. Still love it though and the PITB is a favorite.

In regards to 1973-02-26 - Approximately 3 Hours 7 minutes of music currently circulates from what I can tell. The Official Release and 6 Songs that are Missing from the Release but circulate as SBD, 2 songs Missing and not in circulation. When you listen side by side the sound quality of the official release really stands out and it sounds great! SBD is good just not in the same league.

Highlights: Loser (Sweet Susie Verse!), Don’t Ease, BRRB, Tennessee Jed, GSET
Epic: PITB*, Dark Star > Eyes > Half-Step
Missing from Release: Box of Rain, China > Rider, BIODTL, Row Jimmy, El Paso (All Good not Great)
Missing from Circulation: Deal, Mexicali Blues (Anybody got them?)

Dark Star > Eyes > Half-Step suite is the stand-out and they build a solid structure on both sides of it while coming and going. Dark Star builds for like 17 minutes before First (and only) Verse, it’s pretty magical and I’ll be listening to that again much more often now.

What a Year, What a Show, What a Band!

1973-02-28 - Is great too! But.. I’ll save that feedback for another time.

Good Ole Grateful Dead

Be Well, Keep on Rockin' and Remember your Hippie Training Folks!

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 08:56

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Nice Deadvikes.
I’ve been going through a lot of Oberon while in quarantine. A beer store I frequent sells cases of 16 oz cans for only about $2 more than a case of 12 oz cans. That works out to an additional 96 oz for only $2 more! Got to be frugal in tough economic times.

Have to mow the lawn and do other yard work today. Will try for today’s pick later today when the jobs are done and I’m having some Oberon. I skipped yesterday’s picks because I listened to them on their anniversaries.

I processed a bunch of torrent files yesterday. They are currently in Sd2f format, will convert to AIFF and ALAC today and put the ALAC files on my music player. Included in the batch is 9-10-83, so I will finally get a listen to that show. Last week I went to process that show but the Miller files I had on a HD were corrupt, so I went and got the Seamons mtx torrent. Also processed other shows from 82, 83, 84. Yeah, I like those years.

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 14:44

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Very enjoyable . Had been quite a while since I last heard it. And I have it on my iPod . Strong Bird Song and a chunky 15 minute Playing in the Band.

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 14:58

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Just finishing, on UJB.
Wish more early 80’s recordings sounded this good.

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Submitted by wilfredtjones on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 16:32

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It Must Have Been The Roses is a particularly strong version from my recollection. The harmonies are still tight from the Sept./Oct. acoustic and electric shows.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 18:48

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11/30/80 - I agree with WILFREDTJONES nice IMHBTR and ICECRMCNKD on the Sound Qual.
Nice Bird Song, always like L>S>D before Set 2. Scarlet > Fire, Ship was nice, PITB, Wheel & UJB encore all good.

I was inspired to search out some more from '80, dusted off
8/21/80 - Set 2 is off the rails Drums > UJB > Truckin' > Other One > Drums > Wheel > UJB > Sug Mag. Alabama Getaway Encore.
Give that a spin sometime...

I might have to follow CNKD on a 4/17/69 & 4/18/70 revisit. I was eyeballing them the other day while making my pick.

What's the haps on Tomorrow? Anybody got a pick?

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 20:12

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What a show! I never get tired of listening to this one. Great first set, Bird Song! Lost Sailor/SOC is really good. Don't anybody fall into the pit. Scarlet Fire. Playing, the Wheel. UJB encore!
We need more 1980 shows for sure. A lot to offer.

WilfredTJones, send us a pick for tomorrow.

Conekid. Cases of Oberon in 16 oz cans, sounds sweet. What do they charge in MI for those?
We only get 12 packs in 12 oz cans in MN and they are typically $18.99.

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Submitted by wilfredtjones on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 20:40

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I will nominate Dick's 20 Disc 2 (9-25-76 set II) and/or Dave's 7 disc 3 (4-24-78 set II Terrapin through Around). Btw, I love that 4-18-70 Cumberland Blues...

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Sun, 04/19/2020 - 21:24

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....works for me!
That Big River from the Fox is out-fuckin-standing btw!!

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 07:32

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When I was living in Atlanta I was getting Oberon 12-packs/12-oz cans for $15.99.
Looks like that’s the current price at Meijer in MI.
I’m in Pittsburgh now and the drive thru beer store by my house is selling them for $15.84. That’s a good deal but they didn’t get that much at the start of the season and the last time I was there I think I bought all they had. They probably have gotten more since then, so time to go back. They told me that it doesn’t sell that well, so maybe I’m the only person buying it.
The beer store that I drive past coming home from work (which I’m not currently doing) has the 16-oz cans in 4-packs. I grab a case and it comes to under $38 after tax.

16-oz cans are probably the best deal, but not currently the most convenient for me to get.

Just finished Set 1.. It's cool to hear how much more they've got their swagger back compared to say June 1976.

They sound confident and are rockin'

Good Stuff!

Time for Set 2.

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Submitted by Thats_Otis on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 08:51

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... God, I love a good "Bertha" opener! Maybe my #1 favorite way to open a show... Maybe just a hold-over from my years of listening to and loving Skull Fuck.

Dressed myself in green! (Happy 4/20! - Earth Day too!)

Peace

A double shot of Jerry ballads, back to back. That doesn't happen too often...

Peace

EDIT: Ah, I see that "It's All Over Now" came between them but was edited out for this release. Still, a nice combo, even if it is artificial.

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 10:00

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I’m on Loser now.
The band really does sound a lot different than in June.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 10:11

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....down the hatch. Highlights? Bertha for sure. Peggy-O and Let It Grow.

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Submitted by Thats_Otis on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 10:20

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...from what I remember, this "Supplication" is pretty great. Yep... confirmed. It is hot!

Other than the first set highlights mentioned by VGuy, I also really enjoyed the "Ramble On" and the "Sugaree" closer. Seems like "Let it Grow" will round out the set, and they play it like it will, but then they drop that rocking "Sugaree"...

I also believe that this is the last "Cosmic Charlie" the band ever played. On Half-Step now...

Peace

Sounds a lot like a ‘77 version.

Maybe to get the full feel of the 76 to 77 transition we should also listen to 12-31-76 then 2-26-77.
Not necessarily today.

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Submitted by bolo24 on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 11:21

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Well, everything is now copacetic for the most part in my little world. The nasty covid nemesis is hopefully in the rear-view mirror. My family members are mostly recovered, my buddy tested negative and his wife's health has vastly improved. Feeling blessed today!

Haven't kept up with the selections here - last listen was DP22. Love me some 1968! We had a vacation home in King's Beach for 30+ years, so I'm quite familiar with that bowling alley. I think Hendrix even played there.

Anyway, I haven't gone back to see who is doing the picks here, so I'll just throw out the first Jerry Garcia Band live album for consideration - the one from the Warfield released in 1991. The whole band just sparkles and Garcia's genius on his instrument is undeniable.

Also, I'm probably going to do a little contest soon for some cool (and valuable!) GD schwag in celebration of the return of good health around here, so stay tuned!

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 11:41

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I'm hip to what you all have been saying and you're all on the money here.

Had to attend to other things, but was def noticing that they were rippin' through Dancin' with a lot more authority & confidence, than the 5 versions I recently listened to from June of '76.

Then yes indeed the last Cosmic Charlie.. bye Charlie! Was real nice to know you... you were always Truckin' in style along the avenue... and that Scarlet was tight, again a signpost to places we can go.

Ahh.. gotta groove to St. Stephen for awhile now.

CNKD I'm down... Love 12/31/76.. that PITB is always welcome. Planning on hitting up 9/28/76 today as well, so we'll see where the day goes.

BOLO24 - Glad to hear all is well in your world! Fun thread you got here.. thank you!
Got all the GD.. but don't have much JGB... but I love Schwag!

Speeding Arrow.. Sharp and Narrow.. this sounds good. Yes it does!

They're having fun with this here showh.. You all have fun too!

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Submitted by Thats_Otis on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 11:47

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Just a clarification - do you mean the 91 mass-released double album with the painting on the cover, or one of the archival releases?

Also, glad to hear things are looking up!

Peace

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Submitted by Thats_Otis on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 11:51

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The whole damn thing!

I really liked the Phil-led little jam between Drums and the call back of St. Stephen - then, a joyous Sugar Mags to top it off! But really, this whole set, like many 76 sets, is just one seamless good time :)

Great set, great show, great pick!

My buddy just texted and gave high praise to 4/20/84. I think I may head that direction next.

I hope everyone has a wonderful rest of a Monday! Stay safe, and PLAY DEAD!

Peace

But it’s going to be brief because it’s sunny and blue sky and might hit 60. Going to ride my bike, then have some Oberon in the sun and do some grilling.

If you didn’t see my post on the 76 Box page, Willie Nelson is hosting a 4/20 celebration on YouTube at 4:20 central time.

Yo yo Bolo.

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 12:44

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Great news Bolo! I am sure you and the family are relieved.

We have been moving along well with a great group of contributors. Today, still working on the first show from Dick's 20.

I am open for tomorrow.

Be well!

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Submitted by unkle sam on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 13:21

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Glad to hear that everyone is on the mend. Prayers answered. Stay cool and distant (6 ft. anyway). Looking forward to your contest.

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Submitted by bolo24 on Mon, 04/20/2020 - 16:49

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Thanks for the kind words, prayers and good thoughts. Y'all are good people, just like most Deadheads I've encountered in my life.

Contest: tomorrow at noon pacific time right here. And I guarantee the schwag will be well worth your effort. The clue is ridiculously easy, just like they always are!