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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • icecrmcnkd
    Joined:
    Getting ahead of myself

    Listened to 10-16-89 in the car this week, started Tuesday and since my commute is usually about 20 min each way it took until Thursday to finish the show. Yeah, I didn’t get to listen to it uninterrupted but I have listened to that show many times since getting it when it was released. At that time I was disappointed that they didn’t release 10-9-89, since I already had that on cassette. Of course, when they did release Hampton I was disappointed that I paid $60 for a release that didn’t sound better than the CD-R copies I had.
    Anyway, 10-16 sounds better than Hampton but Hampton has the aura going for it. Both worthy listens in my book.
    Of note, after listening on 10/9 I jumped to 3-15-90 for comparison and that made Hampton seem like training camp, performance and sound quality wise.
    I didn’t make it to Hampton but my friend did and he said that there were tickets taped to the outside doors of the venue and he just grabbed one and walked in. They didn’t tear the ticket as he entered so it is still whole like the one in Oroborous’ picture.

    So, I’m ahead of schedule again for an anniversary listen because I’ve got 10-19-73 playing.
    Then I come here and Oro mentions Fall ‘73.....

    And Jim mentions stink bombs.....

    That board is actually entertaining.

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    NFOD

    I need to check out 10/14/89 Oroborous, so many great shows, so little time, or maybe too much time.

    Finished up this wonderful show of 10/16/89. Sound quality is A+ and I have to say for a 2001 release, unbelievably good.

    I still will give the slight nod to the Hampton shows, but all three are top notch.

    If you don't have NFOD, do yourself a favor and get a copy, they are still cheap on the secondary market.

    I guess the Eyes have it based on the sell out speed of Dave's 36.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Ha..

    Chortled my coffee on that one. Too funny.

    Living in Appalachia.., four miles from the WV border.. well, I can say is I run into Mr. Lahey (or a guy just like him) all the time at the corner beer store.

    Q: What does a tornado and a redneck divorce have in common?
    A: In the end.. someone is going to lose a trailer.

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Mr. Lahey

    Haha, too rich!

    Thanks for the laugh fellas.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Stench modification

    Jim, I’m still laughing hours later after going to 36 and then rereading your hilarious but unfortunately accurate description of said stench. Oh if only Jim Lehey was still around to critique and categorize the Winds of Shit that only seem to strengthen with time throughout 2020!

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    DV, Disco, and the Dead

    Though Donna Summer does have many fine tunes, I’m specifically referring to I Feel Love.
    Smoke a fatty, or perhaps just as the trip is starting to take hold, sit dead center with a good system and crank THAT song.....it’s a stoners delight I tell ya, Healy would be proud of all that auto panning goodness, lol......seriously, this tune is sixteen seventies stoned in your room with your black light and posters groovy cool!

    Polished Jim, that’s the word. The Hampton shows from my POV are better, say as a concert going DH freak, but as a finished, professionally produced product for market, I think Nightfalls is better. The song list, the flow, tightness,(perhaps their playing more to the recording so a tad safer?), and yes, as good as Hampton sounds, it’s yet another one that frustratingly just doesn’t come through on tape and do the shows justice. We’ve touched on this before about similar feelings with 10/14/83, and 3/27/88 for starters. 10/16 does seem to breath better and is perhaps mastered better? Again, this is probably splitting hairs as all four 89 fall releases sound good, just not the same...
    So big 10/16/89 tonight, need to wait for proper conditions to manifest and align with the flux capacitor etc. Maybe I’ll go for that 84 show, or sometime this WE I’ll have to spin some of that awesome Acoustic Warfield stuff from last year. Still have some killer 74 someone generously sent me to rip and crank, need to find that Dico 78 Dead that was the impetus for this ramble, and probably will start the Spectrum 89 shows to keep on the path....
    Speaking of, spent a couple rotations with 10/15/89 yesterday whilst continuing my Swiss madness in the basement. Another perfectly good 89 show, but it didn’t move me as much as 10/14, which is funny cause that one had to grow on me a bit. Some of it is probably just set lists, but 10/14 seemed to build up nicely overall. 10/15 has some notable tunes for the time; Standing on the Moon, Just a Little Light, Crazy Fingers, Victum, Stella, Box oRain, and even a Far From Me! Like I say, good show, just didn’t flow for me? Probably just me....
    GOLLUM, you still along for this ride? What say you old chap? And I think Jim needs to fire up the Deer and head back to fall 73 as we appear to have lost ole Bluecorn chasing some minx in the parking lot after the Syracuse show???
    Ok, ONWARD!

  • bob t
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    10/16/89 i do like that show

    Good call for today!! Just got done biking. Trees here in Rhode Island are looking like the cover of Dick's Pick that has the Landover and Syracuse September 76 shows!! We'll see summer come again.... Feel ambitious also am going to put on the LSU birthday show after from 77... enjoy the weekend everyone Bob t

  • The Good Ole G…
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    1980 Warfield Shows

    Happy Birthday Bob!

    Been hearing some great music this week.

    After the deep dive into 10/14/80 on Wednesday (great tape with a couple small issues & the audience recording is real nice too, overall not too shabby for a bootleg!) Thursday's Deadcast presented us with a deep dive into the Warfield shows.

    Serendipity?

    That episode was fascinating, and the supplementary material is highly recommended. I believe based on some quick sleuthing that the live footage in the mini-doc seems to be from 10/13/80, as they show footage of an Around And Around > Johnny B. Goode as well as The Other One and all those tunes were played on 10/13. Plus from the sounds of things, the filming took place more towards the end of the run based on Bill Graham's decision to document the occasion. Well done Mr. Graham! And Mr. Jarnow!

    Bounced from that to 10/15/84, which is a personal favorite. I love October '84. The PITB on this show is real good, and Jerry's furious fanning burst in Wharf Rat gives me a smile every time. Good stuff and again I have to give some props to the Audience recording by Rick Pauline, it's a really great capture.

    Add in the newly released American Beauty The Angel's Share outtakes which are amazing.
    DaP V36 Announcement of Dave's First & Charlie Miller's favorite '87 show. (Note: CM mentions that he really likes 3/26/87, so I don't wanna presume too much)
    Some killer Garcia interviews from '81 & '83.
    Damn it was a Grateful Day!

    Today as you all venture forth into a Nightfall of Diamonds, I've noticed some cosmic 1981 nods.
    Jam of the Week has a little bit of 5/2/81 which is sounding real nice and our good pal Bolo mentioned 3/28/81 on the DaP V36 forum. Speaking of... lil bit dicey over there.

    Alright, lots to listen too!
    Shall we go, you and I, while we can?

  • JimInMD
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    Nightfall of Diamonds

    Ha.. so funny you mention that. I had a big day and went to decompress in the tub last night.. didn't quite have the time or energy for 10/14/80 and picked nightfall instead somewhat randomly. I made it through the first set and just dipped my big toe into the second set before I had to help with homework and put my son down for the night.

    ...and I was unconsciously comparing this to Hampton, not something I often do. I think Nightfall is more polished, it flows better and it might just sound a little better too. I think Hampton sounds good but I have always been critical of the mix. The instrumentation sounds cluttered and Nightfall has a little better separation. It's probably a better show, but it doesn't have the surprise and excitement of the Hamptons. Oro alluded to this a couple weeks ago, 10/8 might just be a better show overall than 10/9, but the DS, DDHNM and Attics, like watching BAR BAR BAR come up on the slot machine.

    I think Nightfall might just be better. The sound felt better and the vocals, again.. just a touch better?. The show is likely just as good, but I wouldn't trade it for either of the Hampton shows. The best word choice I can come up with is in the same league. I might add to this after I listen to the rest of the second set later today. So funny to hear this mentioned after my deep dive into the first set last night. Serendipitous.

    I'm staying away from the 36 thread for a while.. poor ventilation and too few porta-potties.. somebody should light a match or spray some Febreze or something. Visualizing a modified fire hose that instead of spraying water to cool everyone off on a that horrid, hottest day of the summer tour, it contains a foaming mixture of cleansing spring scents with just enough sanitizer to cut through the stench. Wash all my troubles away....

    Edit: I lied.. had to reply to the book reference on the cover art. I like to read.

  • Strider 808808
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    10/14/80

    Listened to all three sets. Vast amount of focused music.
    Stay safe, be well.

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Jerry's vocals here are so smooth and pure. Sometimes, I love hoarse and gravelly vocals on this tune ( I love the Augusta 10/12/84). But this one is sweet.
It's amazing how well Keith's electric keys fit in here. He was truly one of a kind.

That was awesome!

I'll save you the blow by blow as you'll all be feeling them... and they feel good.

RE: ORO - Ha ha, if the outing by Jimbo you speak of is Geeking Out majorly over the Grateful Dead.. then I'm afraid we've all been outed.
If it's something else to do with being a bot or a spy, then I'll let you, BOLO24 & JIMINMD keep rolling with that..
But yes, Here's to GD Geeks!

RE: ALL - Thanks for all your input yesterday on how you roll this fabulous music, I was too lazy & long winded to respond to each direct, but seriously good input and a lot to take away. ICECRMCNKD that's some next level backing up, you're hardcore, Impressive! ORO: Networking info, wow just wow! Like JIMINMD read it all, understood some. Glad to know you all. I'm not going to let this info go to waste and will continue to refer to it as needed.

This all put it into perspective... I'm NOT the only one who spends untold amounts of hours pouring over this stuff, collecting and perfecting and loving it!

Glad to be one of the many!
Keep on Rockin'

PS - JIMINMD - I think you're right about that fatty / bowl :) Hampton '87 might need some love one of these days!

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I really enjoyed listening to this. A consistently great show, from the first track, through to the last. I like the way the opening trio of songs are the same ones that open the Blues For Allah album, and the last track is the one that closes it. It feels like the whole show is encased withn the vibe of that album.
In many ways, its quite a strange show-unique. The fact that it is consistently great means that their are less peaks and troughs than in a lot of shows. It sounds almost choreographed - no rough edges at all. As Gollum says, the singing is excellent. I would single out Crazy Fingers in that respect - beautifully sung and played.

I listened to my vinyl copy of this, which sounds great. I wonder if a single show from the 76 box will come out on vinyl ? I am not getting the box, but I would go for that.

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What a great show from start to finish, heck I'd put it in my top 15 Dead shows of all time, it really swings.

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Just listen to one anniversary song if you have time. Playing in the Band 5/21/74 HEC Edmundson Pavilion... part of the Pacific Northwest Box... Longest Playing ever... bob t

ha.. I just did.

Had a nice 47 min soak in the tub to wash away the stress (etc.) from grocery shopping. Lossless, wireless Sennheiser's in tow.

Tomorrow might just be Portland '74.. one of my favorite China Riders.

I guess I need to be more faithful to the show of the day. Working on that.

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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..and another BobT Shoutout.. is that PITB from the bonus disc from Jai Alai Fronton. I listened to that one soaking last night.

Both are holy shit good. It's no wonder I have a hard time conforming to the show a day play.

I might just prefer Jai Alai, so jazzy.. not a wasted note anywhere and not a note or chord too much. Notes, scales, chords and weirdness were performed exactly as needed.

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I was always a big fan of Milkin the Turkey. The first release! So good. Definitely short, but stellar. Is it the first analog digital digital CD?

And how about a Blues for Allah encore! When I was a young pup I always had an infinity for the Blues for Allah release. It was so different. I even had the Blues for Allah tapestry. I think it finally met its demise in the late 2000s. Should have held on to it.

Thanks again Oroborous! I have a lot of work to do.
What's on tap for tomorrow?

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Sounds like a good one, to kick off this weekend, the "unofficial start of summer".

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I'm in. Starting... Now.

10/19/73 came up on the Dave's Picks page.. I don't think we covered that one yet.. did we? If not.. we might slide that into the queue sometime over the next few weeks.

Great energy on this thread since day 1.. thanks to all of you and Bolo too.

First Official Recordings from the Lost Betty Boards seems fitting with Betty cued up for the AMA tonight.

Wish Betty would do a Shakedown Stream Pre-Show... that would be cool.

Good Pick Bob T!

I was on the fence of suggesting either:
9/27/72 DiP V11
10/19/73 DiP V19
But kept quite to see who else might have some input.

So I second a review of 10/19/73 soon!

And 9/27/72 is looking mighty good too.

Happy Friday Everyone!

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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....today's choice is mucho excellente. I'm in. At work today, so trying to locate a good sounding version. Looks like there's only two out there. Both Wagner recordings.
edit. recordings sound ok, but I was spoiled by the 78 Box. Will listen at home tonight after Betty's AMA on Reddit.

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... what a gem! Agree with VGuy (and many others here,) first listen to this show was a hell of a nice surprise! Still my favorite of this beauty of a little box, which also happens to be my favorite 78 release - so I suppose that makes this show my favorite 78 so far.

Two discs of pure GD gold - all killer, no filler!

Peace

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Spent a lot of time there....suppose I'm obligated.

Loudest stadium in the country! I'm in!!!

KCJ

Edit: Loudest as long as there are people in it ☹️

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....are you still at your same address? Gotta mail you some local brews and a keychain/bottle opener to make good on our SuperBowl bet.

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Saw a couple shows there a few years ago, most notably Leftover Salmon. Fun show to catch if they show up near your town, btw. Anyway, H>S>F from One From The Vault was played during the set breaks, much to the delight of the assembled crowd.

On to Arrowhead and some good ol' KC BBQ courtesy of Willie and friends.

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Looking back now, remember all we had of the first 3 shows, Kansas City, Omaha, and St. Paul were audience tapes, never on my radar at all. 7/7 and 7/8 were widely circulated in tape trading days... Jimin MD we are on the same wave length with last nights 5/21/74 Playing, and when I was climbing the walls this morning I almost said 10/19/73, (I love the wheat field and sky on the cover!!!!) If you get a second, I never realized the Willie Nelson picnics had such a long history before and after!!! Doing yard work right now, on Big River, hope my neighbors enjoy this concert, because I am.... bob t

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About ready to have some myself...burnt end platter...yum! Same address Vguy, I’m not going anywhere soon! looking forward to those beers!!!

Is anyone familiar with Willy’s son Lukas? I just picked up his new vinyl, Turn Off the News And Build A Garden....good stuff!

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KCJanes has moved to Maryland. I am sending his new address via PM.

Edit: Heads-up.

In looking through the previous posts, it's obvious his previous account here was hacked, probably by a grifter, beer guzzling ex-neighbor who collects plundered bottle openers. Be careful with your passwords folks, this stuff happens all the time.

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...perhaps my love for this show was bolstered by the uniqueness of hearing it for the first time, the overall great SQ, and the excitement of it being the first show in a shiny new box.

I have listened to this show a number of times in the past, but this time through, I am seeming to notice a lot more of the "warts" than I have previously. "Bertha" starts strong, and the playing on "Good Lovin'" is hot, especially the end - but the singing is all over the place on that one. Not terrible, but just off. Donna has a number of miscues throughout the show, off-key clams, which I thought were pretty rare after hiatus. "Tenn Jed" is good, and "Jack Straw" is powerful, despite a few minor miscues. "FOTD" sounds flat and out of tune to these ears - "MAMU>Big River" is good and peppy.

I think I really noticed the "off" quality of this show during "Terrapin"... Jerry seems kind of lost and there doesn't seem to be a lot of "inspiration" to move him or the band brightly through this one...

"Playin" through the end is great though, and this is what I remember the most about this show. What are they saying right after "Drums"? Something about how "they set it up backwards..." then the crazy laughing/hooting/creepyness that goes on throughout the "Space" is awesome - must have been weird for a lot of folks there to see some good ol' boy country. "Estimated" is a high point, and "The Other One" is 78 power... "Wharf Rat" and the double shot of Berry to close it all out is hot, and in the end, they managed to pull out a good set, in spite of themselves.

I really do think that 78 is the most hit-or-miss year of the 70s.

An Ok, but somewhat mediocre disc one, HOT disc two (save that "Terrapin.") I still love a lot of what is here, but I think I am going to have to reevaluate this show as both my favorite release from 78, and even as my favorite of this box. Official score: 7 / 10. Kind of sad, but I suppose people change...

It was a fun listen anyway! What's on tap for tomorrow?

Peace

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A great box set . Arrowhead Stadium is a fun one long set. Any time the Dead could share the stage with Willie Nelson would have been Americana at its best before Americana became a hip term for a broad music genera .

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I am really enjoying this first set! On "Deal" now, and overall, I think this is a better disc than Arrowhead disc 1. I'd forgotten about the hilarious mess-up in "Mexicali" and how damn awesome this "Peggy-O" is!

I just may work my way through this whole box over the weekend, along with the Show of the Day (of course :)

Peace

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Lukas' band is Promise of the Real, they are fantastic. They played with Neil Young for a tour or two, missed that one, but have seen them live and they can really jam. All of their albums are good, but the first Lukas Nelson & Promise of the Real is the best one for sure. Catch them live next time you can.

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The thing I love most about this show is how it just SOUNDS like a hot sunny stadium show in Kansas City. I can imagine the KC BBQ, warm beer, and sweaty hippies packed liked sardines. Man, that all sounds good right now. I agree the show really starts to pay off in the Playin jam. This jam sounds louder and more aggressive than the sublime one from Dick's18 just a few months earlier, but vive la difference. Now I'm into the weird Space, hoping for a gentle "come down" by the end but who knows?....

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In reply to by bolo24

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Welcome to the rock and roll barbecue. Can you imagine. The Dead as the opening act for Waylon Jennings and Willie Nelson. Imagine if you were there for the country music and you saw these band playing Terrapin Station and then later the Other One? And I agree with Otis, this Terrapin is no 77 Terrapin, not smooth, but still a great show.

I still love listening to all these shows. They are all different.

Be well folks!

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Good stuff, good stuff.

You all wanna dig in to some 10/19/73 tomorrow?

VGUY72 - I see you over there asking Betty questions on Reddit... I hope she gets to it, seems like she's trying to answer them all. I decided to throw one in too, fingers x'd.

How cool is Betty Cantor-Jackson?

I'd say Way Cool!

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Ever since Fall out from The Phil Zone, i love this song... my emotions go crazy, happy.... sad..... you name it, especially at 1:20 in the morning over served!!!! Looking forward to Oklahoma City in the morning... Mind Left Body Jam is great!!! Good night all, be safe...bob t

....she didn't answer me. Yet. She answered some good questions. In Arrowhead Space currently. Seguing into Prophet. Nice.
Told ya I'd get caught up.....

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....Weir yells, "Easy now, easy". He followed that up the next show during the Mexicali stumble, "paying attention". Then they dare to follow up a raging Mama Tried w/ a Peggy-O?
I concur.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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*Complete Setlist- Primo!
*Disk #1
First set:
"Promised Land" (Chuck Berry) – 3:44
"Sugaree" (Jerry Garcia, Robert Hunter) – 8:18
"Mexicali Blues" (Bob Weir, John Barlow) – 3:58
"Tennessee Jed" (Garcia, Hunter) – 8:00
"Looks like Rain" (Weir, Barlow) – 8:05
"Don't Ease Me In" (traditional, arranged by Grateful Dead) – 4:24
"Jack Straw" (Weir, Hunter) – 5:32
"They Love Each Other" (Garcia, Hunter) – 5:44
"El Paso" (Marty Robbins) – 4:51
"Row Jimmy" (Garcia, Hunter) – 9:23

*Disc two
"Playing in the Band" (Weir, Mickey Hart, Hunter) – 18:23
Second set:
"China Cat Sunflower" (Garcia, Hunter) – 9:11 >
"I Know You Rider" (traditional, arranged by Grateful Dead) – 6:18
"Me and My Uncle" (John Phillips) – 3:34
"Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo" (Garcia, Hunter) – 7:30
"Big River" (Johnny Cash) – 4:52

*Disc three
"Dark Star" (Garcia, Bill Kreutzmann, Phil Lesh, Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, Weir, Hunter) – 15:45 >
"Mind Left Body Jam" (Grateful Dead) – 10:41 >
"Morning Dew" (Bonnie Dobson, Tim Rose) – 13:55
"Sugar Magnolia" (Weir, Hunter) – 10:10
First encore:
"Eyes of the World" (Garcia, Hunter) – 14:31 >
"Stella Blue" (Garcia, Hunter) – 7:57
Second encore:
"Johnny B. Goode" (Berry) – 4:08

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I will freely admit I only hunt and peck out bits and pieces of these picks of the day. It takes a real commitment to pound out a show every day. (commitment or committed?)

Also, unlike most, I don't know if I ever listened fully to my first show. My first show was 4/1/80 - Capitol Theatre. This is the show where they all came out behind different instruments at the start of the show.

Had it playing in the car yesterday, got to He's Gone. I floating along thinking this is a GREAT recording. It hit about 20 seconds of patch in the middle lyrics (audience) and I'm thinking it's one of the patches that everyone talked about. All through He's Gone I'm thinking I'm listening to a Dave's the sound was so good. Then I look at the dash and see the show date and remember I was listening to my first show.

I wish I knew more when I saw this show, but I was new to everything. The Capitol only held about 3k people.

So maybe try 4/1/80. Shakedown encore!

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Yes, nice call. I haven't appreciated this show as much as others in these forums and I'm sure it's just an oversight! 9/27/72 was also mentioned- that may be a keen idea. Surely that show is as great as the more celebrated 9/21/72? (Dick picked it a lot earlier!)
Spitballing:
*Winterland 6/8/77 Lemieux sez top 10 of 1977, 19 min. Eyes
*Cape Cod 10/27/79 Lemieux gives shoutout in Dave's 34 blurb
*Boise 9/2/83 unfairly maligned!
Just some ideas. We do have a whole Memorial Day weekend and there are no rules, right?

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In reply to by Gollum

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Probably committed Dennis, but who would take us?? First show 4/1/1980. That is cool, one of my favorite Grateful Dead years, and not represented well at all with official releases. Did you make to any of the fall 1980 shows?

Holy shit Gollum, not one pick from you but three. All good ideas, but I will leave it up to the Committee. Always loved the Winterland 77 June shows.

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Listening to Dark Star 30 minute jam right now. Dicks Pick #11 is so good. Terrific concert and Great for Saturday morning.

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Let's go with Gollum's Cape Cod choice of 10/27/79.... Since we can't go to the Cape, and if you have an Orange or Yellow license plate our Rhode Island law enforcement is going to give you grief!! We can celebrate vicariously through this show!!! Lobsters, steamers, clams, corn, not included!!! bob t

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The Midwest leg of the fall tour of 73 looks super high energy. Was living in Kansas City that fall going to the Art Institute. Pre-internet , had nary a clue they were playing all around Kansas City within a few hours drive . I did see the them four times in the spring of 73.
One of my favorite Dicks Picks. Incredible Dark Star. Already sounding different from 1972 versions. All and all an amazing Grateful Dead concert from the heartland of America in 1973. Bet it wasn’t sold out either.

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We may have a quorum for the Cape cod?!! BobT - love the food/location carryover. We move from KC BBQ to a New England Clambake. Cape Cod sounds like a paradise.

I guess we don't have any foods to go with poor Oklahoma, but yeah, it really is the American heartland and the music is exquisite. I've spun the Playin' and Dark Star a couple of times today (so far).....