• 8,086 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    The Slipknot! Outta Samson....

    ....they are sonically surfing. Fuck yeah!!

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    10.9.76 Second Set....

    St. Stephen ->
    NFA ->
    St. Stephen ->
    Help On The Way ->
    Slipknot! ->
    Drumz->
    Samson & Delilah->
    Slipknot! ->
    Franklin's Tower ->
    One More Saturday Night
    -
    US Blues

    Notice the ->'s. The Music Never Stops indeed!!
    I crave this set. Nom, nom, nom.
    Garcia hits a couple sour notes at the start, but then the ship rights itself and onward we go!!!

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    10/9/76

    Yes, always a winner for me. And I agree Oroborous, you can hear the band moving quite a bit different than they were in June 76. Love the Scarlets from this era. New Minglewood rocks. The whole second set rocks. Man, what a run it was. Looking forward to 10/10/76 tomorrow.........
    And again Bolo you were there! Really cool, you got to see some unbelievable shows...Yes, these guys were masters of delivering a different experience every time they went out there. Genius, absolutely! Would love to see some of those pics. Might be time for another Bolo pick soon?

    Hang in there Oroborous, we love you man and don't take it personally. I would say over 90% of my comments are met with crickets, but that is okay.

    Good to see you Bob t. Nothing to say, yes that 6/18/74 show is really good. Jim gave us that pick a while back and that RT2.3 is solid. Can't believe at one point I didn't pursue it because it was not complete shows. What an idiot!

    Be well folks! Finally hot here in MN. Always reminds of summer dead shows.

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Walnut Creek

    Damn, you saw all the fun stuff!

    Funny, I was just reading about Pete Townsend and that he was living there at the time.

    I guess his daughter wrote about it in her autobiography and mentioned being an "American Suburb Child" with the likes of Justin Kreutzmann.

    Sounds like Pete mighta been hanging with Jerry & the boys off work :)

    BTW this show is epic, but you already knew that...

    More to come, my contacts are making it hard to see or at least something is.

    Peace Out :)

    EDIT: PS - really want to see that picture (and all the pictures)!

    Good afternoon(s)

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Just Catching Up

    Haven't read all the posts, I have literally spent every waking hour the last two days refinishing my 116 year old original gothic style (I think) front door. Big, heavy, way too much detail and relief work in the wood and probably neglected for at least 20 to 25 years. It's the only thing that I haven't redone in the front of the house.

    We are not entertaining indoors for all the river rats this year, so the front porch has a welcomed haven and keeps the river rat traffic from entering the home.. But the door has been bothering me for a year or two. This social distancing stuff sucks, but it's better than the alternative. Outdoors and safely apart.. so I bit the bullet and fixed the one thing that was bothering me. ..and man, it was a beast. Two full days just to get it sanded, the wood treated and a stained. Whew, I did f'up the stain, the hard part is over.

    So anyway.. catching up on posts. The day on the green.. wow. To have been there! Second.. Oroboros, you should worry not.. you are one of the most entertaining, kindest people that writes shit here. This whole thread has been a good vibe haven.

    Now.. I after leaning over a fixed space using electric sanders, Dremel's, hand sanding until my fingers are raw, dropping and spilling shit, I could go on... Werewolves of Friendsville. So I am filling up a very strong drink and
    reading the last two days of posts here.

    Back to your regularly scheduled Help/Slipknot!/Franklins.

    How whoooo.. Werewolf's of London.

  • bolo24
    Joined:
    Days on the Green 1976

    Went to both Dead/Who shows, took tons of pictures as I was pretty close to the stage and even managed to sneak "sorta" backstage for a spell. Somewhere in my bottomless pit of boxed-up possessions, I have a picture of Garcia dancing with his shirt off during The Who's set - my hand to God.

    The Who played great, but both shows were identical, almost note for note it seemed. I think they had an extended encore the second day, but the rest was the same, IIRC. GD knocked it out of the park, of course. And the stage looked awesome, thanks to Bill Graham and company.

    I read somewhere soon after the shows that an amazed Townshend quizzed Garcia about how in the world could they play 2 completely different shows on consecutive days, and said The Who had been playing the same show for months, even years, maybe.

    Anyway, there were definitely separate camps of Who/Dead fans with little crossover that I could notice. But the weather was perfect and everyone had a blast.

    Interesting side note: I was living in Berkeley at the time, and the summer before (1975), Pete Townshend and family resided in Walnut Creek, a town about 15 minutes from Berkeley. Can't remember why they were there, though.

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Spew On!

    Man we need your input, insight and one of a kind stories and adventures so keep on growin’, Keep on flowin’ yeah yeah yeah.

    I can’t speak for the others but personal recounts of show experiences, for me in context with the shows we’re listening to, is priceless.

    So keep rolling em, cuz that’s the good shit.

    Now go buy your Garcia & Kahn disc so you get the free bonus show.

    Thanks Bro, keep ‘em coming!

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    GOGD

    Your too kind. I didn’t mean you. Your always thoughtful and inclusive. It’s just that certain folks tell stories and everyone goes nuts. I spend valuable time trying for fun and interesting reads and often get little or no reply...nothing, crickets...a shut the F up would at least be something....so I’ll take that as a sign to shut up and just regurgitate the usual line of cheerleader BS that is the status quo here. It’s cool, I just thought folks liked to hear/learn about something besides the same 30 or 40 shows over and over every year? Back in the day our 2nd favorite pass time besides going to shows, was to debate shows. Not to argue or “be right” etc, but just back and forth banter cause it was fun. Like some working shmucks at the bar arguing about the Yankees or what not.
    Sorry, not meant as a rant, just an awakening of sorts. All is well as Kevin Bacon says at the end of Animal House!
    I’ll just try to lurk more and spew less lol...

    Oh, and that was only the second time we ever flew to shows and we camped as much or more than we hoteled. When we did, there were usually too many people in the room, ya know, normal tour style! Lol
    So though we did “style it” comparatively, it was a vacation and one time thing and as I say I got stuck paying for not just my end but a bunch of free loaders too. Funny because I had just got my first CC for this trip and ended up taking quite awhile to unfuck it! But it was totally worth it!
    Okay, giving 10/9/76 set 2 another pass!
    Thanks again for your support, good vibes, and all the interesting info you present us.

  • bob t
    Joined:
    Thanks Deadvikes

    For your concern!! Just haven't had anything to say!!!! Other than it is 6/18/74 Louisville anniversary!!! Bob t

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    RE: Tough Crowd

    OROBOROUS - Crickets...

    Haha.. Man it was good and definitely got some chuckles. Nice recount too, very well done.

    Didn't see it till later and was too burnt to come up with any clever retorts.

    Sounds like you were doing it up right bro.

    Creating some life long memories to revisit along with the shows :)

    You were definitely touring in way more style then we did.. but the majority of my touring was during my broke ass teenage years. I shoulda stayed on the road, but the call of the wild made me venture off in a different direction and once I made it back, things in the scene just weren't the same and honestly neither was I.

    Glad you were able to talk yourself out of the broken sink and pat the darling little kid on the head with a wink.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro!"

    Thank you for a real good time ..

    BTW October '76 is Kickin!!! Nice call.
    Slipknot!

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

I wonder what they'll call this summer in the future?

Anyhow I'm grooving on some '67 Dead, thinkin' I need to check out 11/10/67 at the Shrine.

It's got a Potato too!

New Potato Sunday?

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so for the first time in a long time, i wandered into the land of that early Holy Grail in the Dicks Picks series - DP Vol. 4. Fillmore East 2/13-14/70.
i cannot believe what a beautiful recording this is. in all ways. Stunning. Thank You Bear.
My '67 / '68 Dead listening is cyclical. think i'm going to be entering its gravitational pull very soon. always love a New Potato.

Spotlight for the announcer please..

This Ain’t A Show It’s a Party

Glorious Sunday Morning.

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so clean and balanced, detailed and nuanced

an astonishing audio document

shall we go, while we can?

Finished with the 2/14 Carousel. I was eyeing 11/10 and decided to come inside and check in. Shrine Exposition Hall it is, it's got a new potato.

With a little luck I can pull off my first Brewer Hat Trick.

jumping a couple of eras - new interview with Ned Lagin at Aquarium Drunkard (aquariumdrunkard.com)

https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2020/08/25/ned-lagin-the-aquarium-drunkard…

if you're not familiar with AQ, it will always deliver - fantastic music site

back to Pig - ALL I NEED

Step Right Up and Read The Aquarium Drunkard!

Thanks for the Tip, something fun to read later.

Alright, gotta get out of the house.

Enjoy some good Tunes & Check y'all Laters!

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But Vguy's subliminal 5/21/74 HEC Edmundson drew me in!!! Also been a big fan of the WRS from this show... I like the audience version of this show, but going to listen to the one from PNW box as soon as soon as my Cow Palace encores are done!! Happy Labor day weekend all... bob t

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go cover to cover on DP4 - trust me

just came out on the far side of the caution > feedback > we bid you goodnight, and that whole disc 3 shook loose and rearranged a few neurons

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reaching down to the pile of discs on my right, Hec Edmundson 5/21 was right below the MOFI Garcia and Grisman and so Disc 1 is spinning now and it sounds gorgeous

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So, I did 9/3/72 and I agree with you guys. It probably has the same level of greatness as Veneta but the sound problems are pretty distracting (except for the DicksPicks portion-thank heavens!). It's whet my appetite for another similar show. What do you guys think about the August BCT shows? I've had those shows for decades, but they never struck me as being as magical as Europe 72 or the 9/21-28 run. But some folks on the archive claim just that: that the run is as good as anything in 1972. That the Dark Stars are comparable to Veneta and 4/8/72. That just sounds like crazy talk. No way! But I do think I need to revisit those BCT shows. What do you guys think? Are the BCT shows as mind-blowing as the 9/21-28 run? (seems a bit far-fetched....)

Happy Labor Day!

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I think the August 72 BCT run is prime, add in the October Fox Theatre run and you have my two most desired box sets.

I did finish a cover to cover run of Dicks Picks 4 yesterday cutting outside trim for my windows.. detailed, pain in the ass stuff but it went by almost effortlessly with a little help from excellent weather and great music (and a little help from some edibles).

So today I am in with the Seattle '74 show. Thanks VGuy.. BobT, I might end up shifting into New Years 76/77 if I keep it going...

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In reply to by JimInMD

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I am in with that for sure. 5/21/74!

And yes Vguy, I have also been having a lot of problems with the site, I keep getting the technical difficulties page.

Be well folks!

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In reply to by Gollum

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You can lose a finger tryin’ to use it..
Bobby Looks at Jerry
Indeed says Jerry.

Gotta love that wicked sense of Humor.
For years I wondered what the hell Bob was talking about, then I finally got the joke when I read that part about him looking at Jerry.
Gift that keeps on giving.
Great stuff, still working through the "Outtakes".
That 2/14/70 Dark Star needs some props, so cool how different they could play it each night.

Let's See BCT '72 or 5/21/74.
Gollum I'd do some BCT '72 stuff what about 8/24?

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Yeah, let's do it! As far as I can tell, there isn't any consensus on which is the better Dark Star or show (8/21 or 8/24). The Dave's Pick 8/25 sounded to me like the hottest show of the run, but maybe that's due to the sound quality. Putting on my critics hat and adding 8/24 to the queue.

Fine Fine Show

Got all the songs and is played real well.
Hot and there’s some deep music here, introspective in parts.
By all means part of the journey to a show like 8/27/72, and so being lives in Veneta’s shadow.

Goes to some dreamy places.
S1 Jack Straw, China > Rider, Birdsong, PITB.
S2 BEW, Truckin’, Dark Star > Morning Dew, Ramble On, UJB
Well worth the travel and the jam songs are full of exploration.

Dark Star moves through some trippy landscapes.
Here, as the music played, a smoke haze began to encompass the area and the wind was whipping.
A hummingbird was flying way up high and then diving quickly down low, repeatedly.
So I got some visuals :)

I liked it.

If I were to complain, which I would never think of doing, it would be about the mix of the vocals out front.
The performance is full of quite and loud dynamics, so the vocals being so prominent isn’t ideal.

That all being said, I’m curious now, how’s that 8/21/72 Dark Star again? Hmmm…

PS - 5/21/74 I’ll get to you! Alas just not today. Your 47 minute PITB will be given the attention it deserves.

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Great write-up GOGD and nice visuals (I dig!). I'm glad to hear you/Jim/VGuy rate this BCT run highly. I've neglected it too long and plan to dig in with a vengeance. I listened to the full show with multiple repeats of PITB and Dark Star. I kept trying to find hints of Veneta in the jamming, but I couldn't hear much similarities. In the fine GD tradition, every jam is unique.

I couldn't help sneaking a listen to the 8/21 Star. That Star seems to me a little more thrilling and visceral, while the 8/24 seems a bit more mellow and reflective, which is fitting since it melts into that great Dew.

I'm looking forward to discovering these shows!

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In reply to by Gollum

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Hope you like them Gollum.

I don't compare them to Veneta, they are just good shows and hopefully will be given the full norman at some point.

I didn't finish Seattle yesterday. Today hopefully I will finish this and move on to what's next.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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I thought you all might find this article interesting. It details this Group's pursuit and acquisition of the Betty Boards.

https://denisonmagazine.com/feature/spring-2019-raising-the-dead/#

Based on this article, ABCD ultimately obtained all the reels from the original three buyers of Betty's storage locker. 780 total. Rhino, it looks like only bought 375 reels. Why not all the reels? Which ones were left out? More mysteries.
Would love to hear from ABCD on this.

I would think they will continue to put out at least two shows per year from this stash. Next up, you would think 5/26/73, Dave's 37 to start out 2021? Mark it GOGD.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Today's pick, I thought I would fire up 11/14/73, San Diego, from the 30 Trips Box?

Stay well all.

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I wonder why Rhino didnt buy all the tapes? I wonder if they bought 6/17/75, because I would sure buy it, if they would sell it to me, my first show. I wonder if $ 1000 would get you a tape or even get you in the discussion for buying one.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Let it be known throughout the land, that on eight September 2020, DeadVikes is calling 5/26/73 Kezar Show for the first release of 2021 on the Dave's Picks Series Volume 37.

Nice! I'd buy it :)

Thanks for the article tip on the Betty's I'm digging into that right after I type this nonsense.
And the Warner Hack Letter doesn't sound very encouraging. Boo!

8/21/72 starting off sounding good over here today.
And yeah Gollum, I agree with Jim, not sure these shows can compare to Veneta, but it's fun to listen for those hints of glory. Ultimately 8/24 is a real solid show, but it's missing the X-Factor or whatever it is that takes a show to that Next Level of Upper Echelon Dead. Like you I did some repeated listening to Bird Song, PITB & Dark Star > Morning Dew and it's a cool trip, real thoughtful almost eerie at times. I'd keep listening to those and will try and remember that. Man we're lucky, Gotta love it!

Sounds like some '73 as soon as this Berkeley trip winds down. Dig it.

Alright, gotta go read about the Dead while I listen to the Dead.

Enjoy!

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Interesting stuff.. so if memory serves the average show contains 5 reels.. say 6 for the biggies (Kezar, etc.). so approx. 70 shows in 375 reels??

Some of these shows (many??) are Jerry Band stuff.. hopefully the Garcia Estate is on this too.

Still great news!! I think in addition to tunneling under the vault and freeing the reels we need to find out where these reels are being housed and send in one of our top agents (bolo?, zuck?) to liberate them. I personally am not opposed to taking Norman from his office and putting him to work immediately. We have needs.. we are being repressed!

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In reply to by JimInMD

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....I'm finally getting to 8.24.72. Had a few too many beers yesterday and ordered this.
https://blisslights.com/sky-lite-laser-galaxy-projector/
Totally forgot i did until they sent me an email this morning saying it was shipped. Drunk me apparently thought it looked pretty cool. I trust drunk me......usually.

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In reply to by Vguy72

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That article is Awesome, thanks DV!
Really dug the story and was unaware of ABCD and their role.
Super Cool.
My assumption on the purchase of 260 reels vs the whole shebang would be that the GD already had some of the other shows, and they don't necessarily have rights to the Garcia stuff? possibly. Betty taped her own two track copies of all shows, so in some cases there are Master Reels and Betty Boards I believe.
Anyhow, FWIW there's my heavy duty assumption.
yeah yeah.. it ain't worth the paper it's written on, and in cyberspace, even less.
But shit, what else you gonna do.

VGUY - That shit is dope! I wonder can you film the projection? You're definitely gonna get some good visuals.
Nice work Drunk You!

8/21/72 is super sweet so far, just went through PITB and it's Mighty Fine, from a different place than 8/24 fo sure.
BTW on 8/21/72 shnid=139581 has a weird repeated section in Stella Blue at 3:00 that is not on shnid=150 JSYK and don't have to dick around wondering what is going on. Like I just did. It's a sweet early Stella and there should be no repeated sections ;)

Good Stuff!

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I went crazy on Real Gone Music today and haven't had one yet today :-)

Just a FYI - Real Gone Music has a big sale going on right now on cd's,,,, I think at the end of the month it will be vinyl.

They had quite a chunk of road trips.

I found enough to piss a chunk of money away. Who would have thought I'd need a copy of the Supremes doing the Funny Girl soundtrack!?!

5/26/73: being three sets I’m guessing that’s not gonna fit on three discs, but probably would fit with the bonus disc..though don’t feel he’d do just one show like that? Seems like it’s a good way to use partials, and still think they’ll do some kind of summer 73 box at some point, but of course that’s ass talk....

VGUY: sweeettttt! That might be perfect for my music room? Definitely needs some research...
Oh, and #$*&$ the Stars! Go Knights!

Sorry, been a free range listener lately. After the fun Alpine 87 run, no dead for a brief respite...today been going primal;
- 7/3/66
- first album bonus stuff
- 11/10/67 again!
- 3/17/68 again!

Thinking bout that 11/14/73 later,
and tomorrow because;
A) it’s due, and
B) it’s supposed to snow so I’m thinking DP 28 from chilly February 73 will be apropos...

Oh, didn’t get to 8/24/72 yet, been meaning to carve out time for that whole run, but did go with Dap 24 yesterday.
Overall great, jam is awesome, but I remember thinking then as now that it’s not necessarily in my useless opinion a “top” show?? Need to hear the 21&24 Dark Stars fo sure though! Perhaps I’ll have time later this week to do the whole run?

DV: thanks for the cool article. Knew about ABCD etc, but this sheds more light on this very interesting topic.
Guessing perhaps some reals were in such poor condition and/or not complete, or like Jim said already in vault so not worth the price? Like Oak island, every clue seems to add more questions?

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In reply to by Oroborous

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....I'll post a review once I test it out. BTW. I got it at the guitar center website. $10 bucks cheaper. Apparently, drunk me knows a deal when he sees one. (pats myself on the back).

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Just put it on!!! Looking forward to it... for some reason i play Waterbury and Dijon more from 30 Trips... mmmm don't know why... I love Kezar 5/26/73, one of my first Betty's back in 88... I still think we get a "May 73 box" Des Moines, Santa Barbara and Kezar, someday.... All 3 set shows... I don't know if you can fit them each on 3 CD's.. This is the time of year when Weather Report Part 1 starts to take on a deeper meaning....... be good all... bob t

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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Location:
1090 Page San Francisco, CA

Charging admission of fifty cents, Helms (Chet) began that summer to host free-for-all jams. It took little more than rumor to draw capacity crowds to the basement sessions. A chubby biker-type blues singer called Pigpen, who played with a band somewhere down the peninsula, hung back one night in the crowd, just watching.
- Joel Selvin (Chapter - Summer 1965 / excerpt from Summer of Love)

A lot was about to happen in San Francisco shortly after that and Pigpen would go on to become legend.

Hearts of Summer held in trust
Still tender, young and green

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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Would love to see the full list of shows Rhino actually purchased from ABCD. I have seen lists, from Relix and other outlets, but they are not complete. For example, none of them include 1/22/78, Dap 23, and that was a tapes provided through the assistance of ABCD release.
Man, we owe these guys and Dave owes these guys.

So, I think we will see another ABCD release this year for #36. What year? Maybe we get another 72 or April 78??

So, for 30 years their shows were recorded by various Dead crew members and for some reason they erased the tapes for the Warfield/Radio City run?? That makes no sense to me at all.

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8 years 6 months

In reply to by Strider 808808

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Hello again my friend,Your post brought two things to mind! Both speak ‘volumes’ Dave’s Picks 36. 🙏❤️😉💀🌹
"Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower." - Albert Camus

"Wild is the music of the autumnal winds amongst the faded woods." - William Wordsworth

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I think we will be seeing the returned Betty Boards sprinkled into every year until they are finished.

I'm very curious of the Garcia stuff as well.

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13 years 5 months

In reply to by JimInMD

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The beast get's released.. Good to see American Beauty get a nice birthday soiree.

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8 years 1 month

In reply to by JimInMD

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So, if you haven't listened to this one in a while, you should check it out. What do you think Bob t?

This is one of my favorite 30 Trips shows. The best, maybe. Sound quality is A+. There a couple of small patches, but no big deal. There are certainly no vocal dropouts for four to five songs, cough, cough.
One of my favorite HCS, just awesome and yes that second set jam is sweet. The Truckin into The Other one, etc! Hot!

Thanks for joining me on this one.

Who has a pick for today?

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I’m going with DPs 28, the twofer from frosty February of 73 just cause it’s cold and snowed here so thought apropos..
Perhaps y’all won’t want to go 73 again, understandable...

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In reply to by Oroborous

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For sure in again on these two great shows.

Good call Oroborous and yes, we had to turn the furnace on here in MN yesterday. No snow though.

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I agree the Truckin through the end is awesome... Also liked the Row Jimmy and Here Comes Sunshine... What a week of shows!!! 3 Winterlands, this, and Pauley Pavilion!!! Going to listen to the 73Feb Dicks Picks but then journey to Alexandra Palace September 9, 1974 and listen to these three shows in their entirety!! bob t

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13 years 5 months

In reply to by Oroborous

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Are there enough hours in the day?

Funny.. just came in, I'm on the San Diego Row Jimmy, and I see it mentioned...

Goal, assist, fight.

Anyway, I haven’t been keeping up since I don’t listen to music at work. But sometimes I get part of the pick in at night once I’m home. Usually the jammy parts.

But, tonight I think I’m going for 9-9-82, being the anniversary and all.

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Just finished the encore.. Forgot how good the Truckin>Wharf Rat is!! I ordered the American Beauty released today for the 2/18/71 show... Couple interesting thoughts, we listened to the bonus shows a few weeks ago from Anthem of the Sun and Aoxomoxoa... a few of us said how we really only listened to them like once (I know I was one of them) and sort of forgot about them... Now that i look back i haven't listened to any of the actual albums that came with them including the recent Working Man's Dead release, but I did listen the the Capitol Theatre show 3 times... For me, when I think of the studio albums, i break out the old actual records and play them on the turn table or the CD's i bought to replace them years ago!!! Strange don't know why. bob t