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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • #821
    JimInMD
    Joined:
    It Was A Trick Question

    Not Phil, It sounded an awful lot like Pigpen, but not quite. I was thinking it was a stand in or guest or something.
    I arrived at my destination and had to turn off my truck before they said anything about who was singing.

    I guess it was Pigpen, it was just a rehearsal and I suspect he showed up or tried to practice with the band. It was very good, especially Jerry's solos. Perhaps the last thing he did with the GD which is why it sounded different?

    Has anyone else heard of this? They did say it was from January or February 73.

  • #822
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    King Bee

    Jim, Phil?

  • #823
    JimInMD
    Joined:
    I always liked Lille

    It gets an A for overall vibe.

    I did revisit 4/7, 5/11 and 5/26. First, I always held Rotterdam in the highest regard but giving a relisten to the whole show and man, start to finish it's great. So is 5/26 but unlike Oro I have tried really hard not give this too many listens. When you finally hear that suite in the second set, in it's whole it's more like a symphony than a rock and roll show. Nothing leads, nothing follows it just flows, moody, brawling, reflective, sad and hopefull from minute to minute. 5/7 is another other big favorite. I think I like 5/3 a bit more than a few. I like to listen to 5/4 with 5/3, 5/10 with 5/11, etc. It's hard to discount the final four shows of the tour too.

    I also fit in the 85 Red Rocks show the folks at the DaP 47 thread were howling about (8/7/85). A fine little show with some memorable highlights.

    I agree with the comments on 73 v 72 also. To me, when they took off in January off, they left behind the smooth continuity of 72. They had a really good show and set structure going and the new Wake and other material they brought into the fold took some time to gain it's footing.
    The beginning of the year was rebuilding, where are going to put Let Me Sing Your Blues away and You Ain't Woman Enough for example. A little of this disjointedness continued into '74. Nonetheless, '74 was the polished version of this era and direction of the band with their new Grateful Dead Records material.

    Speaking of which.. David Gans played this passage from I think January 73 on the radio a month or two ago. It was a really good performance of King Bee I had never heard before. Supposedly, it was lifted from a practice session. Any guesses to who sang vocals? I was kinda floored by it.

  • #824
    Dennis
    Joined:
    Elbow & Without a Net

    This vinyl was part of the big box "The Story of the Grateful Dead". I almost ordered it, then checked the box and there it was. So if you already have the box,,, UB set on Without a Net.

  • #825
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    E72

    Nice work OB and Firstshow. What a feat! I am sure you both will need a break. It is quite the box. Not sure if they will ever put another box like this with a full tour.

    Go Twins. They are due. They have lost 18 straight playoff games.

  • #826
    1stshow70878
    Joined:
    The Short Ones

    5-16-72 Lille: Lively, despite sound issues early on. Again every song played well. Energetic, these guys are durable! Classic Truckin' with Jerry going off on it. The TOO seems advanced for '72, short but completely fully developed. Some of this tour's TOOs rival Dark Stars in this regard. Best yet TOO? It's a contender. Hurts Me Too was stellar.

    5-16-72 Luxembourg: Were those first two a sound check? The treatment of Big River I could see as a regular thing but sadly no. Almost starts like the '77 intros to Jack-a-Roe, and Bob gets an interesting part not seen later. Radio broadcast maybe quickened the pace on many 1st set songs? The TOO not nearly up to the level of the other Other Ones. A short and sweet show as I'm finishing the usual NFA> GDTRFB> NFA ending now. How many kinds of radio bandwidths did Europe have back then?

    A shout out to Bluecrow who clued us in on some easy to get to petroglyphs in the front yard of his San Juan River, Utah cave up in the hills. A friend of the devil is a friend of mine. Fantastic stuff and an inspiring place for sure. I'm rejuvenated and ready to cruise through the rest of EU72.
    Cheers

  • #827
    Oroborous
    Joined:
    Good times/Bad Times

    Good, because I finished the quest on Saturday with a sit down listen to 5/26/72.
    Bad, because everything lately is a blur, so the multiple times I hit 5/24 and 5/25 are now also a blur, so I’ll try to remember some of the standouts?
    5/24: variety pack = Cold Rain and Snow, Dire Wolf, Only Black Peter, You Win Again, Rocking Pneumonia, and Lovelight. Most were good with Win Again and Hurts Me Too making the album cut!
    The second set sequence they do step it up, and I liked the shorter LL, sadly, Pigs last…
    I hadn’t heard this show before so I did hit it multiple times, though didn’t get a great listen in…
    Generally, by now, they’ve totally melded and though perhaps early on in this show you might catch a slightly passed the peak vibe, but not sure hearing it alone, out of sequence and/or casually listening you’d notice. Still mostly full on magnificent.
    Part of my problem deciphering is how much these shows do sound alike, sure their all different and have unique nuances, but after so many in a row, they all sorta roll into one…
    5/25/72: this one seemed like it took a bit to build up from good to RJ…, but certainly did!
    Of course the second set sequence was superb, and benefited from the tour unique UJB> Warf Rat> DS> Mags variety mix. Other Variety pack songs= Another awkward Promised Land, a sweet Brokedown, the aforementioned UJB and Rat, with unfortunately the last Sitting on top (another farewell to that 60s pyscho style/energy), and a sweet Sing Me Back Home! The Dark Star of course was RJ (have you ever heard a 72 DS that wasn’t lol), and a nice slightly different GDTRFB/One Mo Saturday finale. Sadly Pigs last Good Lovin, perhaps a bit abbreviated due to fatigue, and an unusual only four songs on the night…
    5/26/72: some call this the greatest Dead show ever, not sure I’d say that, but it is a beast!
    Only did one listen on this one as I’ve had it, gave it a sit down, and honestly, I’m just burned out. Both in general, which unfortunately didn’t help my tour burnout. But I’ve enjoyed every note, and this one didn’t disappoint either!
    Not so much variety, and sadly, only 3 helpings of grease, perhaps due to some being repeated at least a couple times here at the end: Promised Land, Dire Wolf, nice Cumberland, Sugaree returns after more regular play early on, same with Loser, and of course THE Dew! Another sweet Sing Me, and another OMG second set sequence that is definitely RJ! It’s all most too much, when some shows, they basically play another small set AFTER these big powerful sequences, but here they do it again, though why they had to repeat Me&My Uncle yet again I’m not sure? They just did it a year before on Skullfuck so why use up so many slots on this tour that might have made room for another, possibly THE version of something different to make it to vinyl?
    Anywho, A great show and proper fitting ending to one of the all time greatest tours! They Hit most of the usual suspects of the tour, and even managed to nail some album worthy versions, including that magnificent Dew!
    Oh, and how could I not mention the consistently hot PITBs, everyone RJ fo sho…

    Well, this was bittersweet. I’m glad I finally went for it even if the timing was poor and I didn’t feel I went as deep as I usually do when hitting a tour. But I did hit every show in order, including a few I hadn’t gotten to yet, though I did miss some of 4/7 and 4/8 which I’m going to do this week, perhaps with a couple other partial rehashes, though I really need to hear some other Dead for a much needed cleanse…
    I’ll, prolly think of more insights, but for now I’ll just comment on something I kept thinking of that DR said awhile back about post Pig Dead. After hitting all those amazing but long 73 box shows, then hitting all these amazing but long 72s,
    Pigs departure really did affect the flow and energy of those long shows. As awesome as those 73 shows are, they can sometimes be a bit monotonous, so they definitely miss not having those little Pig interludes to break things up, keep things moving, add more variety, and give an occasional energy boost. It also made me think a lot about what if Pig hadn’t checked out? By this point in their trajectory perhaps the overly long repetitive nature of LL and Good Lovin, and the old, overripe straight blues numbers, maybe needed to take a break, but think of all the sweet alternatives they were coming up with that just shown so brightly on this tour: Hurts Me Too, Mr Charlie, China Town, 2 Souls, and some old chestnuts like Lied Cheated and Big Boss Man. And who can forget the few but enjoyable Cautions, a tour highlight for me personally.
    You have to wonder what if…what if he was healthy and kept writing and growing as a writer etc?
    I think he would have had to have grown as a byproduct of just being in the band and how they kept changing etc.
    He may have transitioned from being the main focus, but there probably would have been some monumental new stuff that might even have been better, but alas we’ll never know…
    Well, hopefully we didn’t lose ole 1stshow in some unknown rural border jail lol, and he’ll fill us in on his travails.
    Until next time, keep it forward, never straight…and get yo self a shotgun and a pocketful of shells ; )

  • #828
    Elbow49
    Joined:
    Without A Net Coming To Vinyl

    I heard on the YouTube broadcast from the In Groove in Phoenix, AZ that Without A Net is coming to vinyl November 17, 2023 as a Brick n Mortar release.

  • #829
    JimInMD
    Joined:
    Hot Opener

    stMade it to the halfway point, but they started playing 10/18/74 on SiriusXM, so I hit pause. They were out of the gate with a bang. High energy opener with some Healy vocal distortion on Hey Pockey Way. Nice high energy Jack Straw too. I never made it to the Kaiser.. caught news years at the Auditorium, never the Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center.

    Man, Jerry's tone on that October 74 run, just love it.

    I'll hit the second set later this afternoon.

  • #830
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    11/7/1987

    Enjoyed the revisit of 9/18/1987 at MSG Jim. If you ever watch any shows from 1987 you can see Jerry trying to find his form. Looking back I still can't believe how much they toured right after his coma.

    Looking at 11/7/1987 Oakland for today if there is any interest out there.

    Still think we will get a 91 show released soon. Although the talk is 1988 is coming soon.

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Submitted by marye on
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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Submitted by DeadVikes on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 08:16

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Looking at 4/26/72 today. Frankfurt.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 09:59

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Goodness. Epic.. This might take the better part of the rest of the day. That jam from GDTRFB into Lovelight is such a bright sunny place to spend some time. TOO, on the Other hand.. takes one to some dark, isolated places...

Thanks DV. Got a text last night or the night before from a buddy who has been spending an excessive amount of time in the Europe 72 and June 76 boxes.. both happy places.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 10:01

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I have music on (gently in the background) most of the time, 90% GD.

anyway, my pick of the moment is 3/13/82. (I just heard a happy surprise in that show)

Earlier it was 8/30/85...a bland affair for me, to be honest. But it was Texas in late August; Jerry was at 300+ pounds; etc.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 10:24

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....I wish. I'm still considered essential. That sucks because covid has been running rampant at my work. Wash your hands and take a step back or I'll kick you in the junk.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 11:07

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Should we start to feel sorry for the female employees where you work? (or at least the non-handwashing, close talkers - you know who you are!)

On the bright side.. you are essential. My mom would surely put the 'You Are Essential' letter up on the fridge for all eternity... right next to my 7th grade report card. The one with the A's and S's.

I know.. we always get punchy right before Lemieux's big reveal.... I am probably in the minority that wishes we did not know the contents of the first two releases each year. I like the surprise...

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Submitted by JimInMD on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 11:21

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I get more of a kick out his video reveals than any human should. It started early on when his 'Distracted Dave' persona first bubbled up. He could easily spend 2/3 of the video talking about seagulls and birds of prey. I don't think there has been a single seaside chat where there wasn't some aspect that amused me way more than it should. High points are the balancing on pointy rocks at the edge of the tidal pool (or was he log rolling, it's hard to tell) and the fly fishing, sasquatch hunting video. I think it's safe to say Dave knows the meaning of fully caffeinated.

Have a turbo charged day all.. We need a new release.. Dave, if you're reading, please upload the April 78 video.

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Submitted by One Man on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 17:50

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Currently grooving to the Origins vinyl. It's a too-rare window into 1968. Audio is panned to the extreme, and apparently this was Healy's idea, not Owsley's. I'll blunt edit that Side A to Side B flip. Coming at you soon, ICK.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 19:05

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No 36 yet. I did get an email stating something to the effect they are looking in the warehouse for my Dave's Picks 36 and would let me know when they resolve the issue. A pretty benign and vague acknowledgement that there was an issue with no specific remedy mentioned.

I'm fine to wait so long as they make good.

Is that One Man I see showing some support for the home town? Right on.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 21:08

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Im gonna raise a fuss
Im gonna raise a holler

GIVE JIM HIS DAVES 36!!!!!!!!

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 21:11

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Seeminly interminable
You gotta be dosed to fully get it

Or so my cynical cell sez

6 19 94

13 minutes of Space so far

AAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!

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Submitted by JimInMD on Wed, 01/27/2021 - 21:50

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RIP Frau Blucher aka Cloris Leachman. A true talent (add horses whinny'ing in the background). A class act that rarely failed to make me laugh.

As for 36, it's fine.. I have the music, the rest is just paper and plastic, plus.. I have to believe it will come. They might not be quick but almost all the time they make good. They know it didn't make it's way, I will give them a chance to make good.

adequately buzzed (thump, the sound of head hitting pillow).

Tomorrow?

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 07:09

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I'd like to check out your Origins edit when you're done :)

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 07:16

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Lotsa Acoustic talk in the air.

Figure I'll add some :)

Stumbled into 12/26/69 and thought some of you all might enjoy checking it out.

2nd Acoustic set?
Some rare gems and early Workingman's stuff.
Great Dark Star (rough reel flip)
Early NSB (20 days after Altamont)

Good stuff

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 08:06

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White Rabbit Goddammit!

Whoever you are Mister White Rabbit we'll identify you yet.
This guys been following us around for five years.

Strider were you in Europe 72?
(just kidding, I don't think you were, but there's somebody yelling White Rabbit in the crowd sounds a bit like you.)

What a show, haven't listened to 4/26/72 in forever.
Chinatown Shuffle listen to ole Jer!
Top of their game.
Fun Pick DV, digging it.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 08:18

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I remember hearing the band commenting on that request on a few shows

interesting since I chose to start the musical day with Jefferson Airplane (Baxter's though, not SP.)

"in green sun
on blue Earth
under warm running shower"

PS: I am not a robot, but I am a White Rabbit. HAHAHAHA...haha...ha....

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 08:48

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Agree with GOGD and Jim on this one. What a barn burner. I think it has been about 4 years for me as well on this show.
The Truckin is awesome into The Other One, Comes a time and of course the epic Lovelight into GDTRFB! So good.
And I have always wondered who was keeping those charts in Turlock California? I would love to see that show Truckin as #1.
Seaside chat tomorrow?
Man, it seems like forever. Still no tracking notification over here.

Everybody hang loose.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 08:57

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I always took this as a joke. A joke Bob could say with a straight face and get away with in a 1972 Europe.

Turlock is sometimes referred to as The Trucking Capital of the World. Probably just a branding thing or a slogan for a trucking company. So there you have it.

Was Truckin' #1 in Turlock CA? Perhaps, but I am doubtful. Will we ever find out? Now what fun would that be.

that space on 6/19/94 is almost 20 minutes long.

were they trying to trip us out, or make us crawl out of our skins? Perhaps both.

20 minutes of blip blip brooooooot? or 20 minutes of Alligator? which would you rather hear?

(if you can't tell, I am avoiding work. Be an adult, Proudfoot...be an adult.)

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Submitted by Slow Dog Noodle on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 11:15

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Maybe a few of them, but I think some of their best songs are from the late era: Days Between, Lazy River Road, Black Muddy River, Picasso Moon, Built to Last, Foolish Heart, Broken Arrow, all great.

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Submitted by billy the kid on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 11:22

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WOW, what a cool acoustic set, I've never heard this one before. Masters Bouquet, only time they ever did it, Stanley Brothers tune. GOGD, thanks for another cool pick, you're really mining the gems this week, between this and the 1968 show , both are knockouts and future releases. 4/26/72, great pick Dead Vikes, this one is an all time classic, great from start to finish. I always felt the peak periods for the Dead were 1968, 1969, 1970 & 1972 when Pig Pen was still in the band. Bob Weir said that they were the "deamon band" in 1972.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 11:40

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wave to the wind
easy answers

latter day songs that I find palatable:
Eternity
Way to go home (once in a while, just not every show, please)

I can't recall how "if the shoe fits" or "childhoods end" go...I do know part of one of those. but which is which?

ah. if the shoe fits. ok tune.

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Submitted by daverock on Thu, 01/28/2021 - 14:43

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Yes, a sweeping statement. I do like Lazy River Road a lot.

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Submitted by Dennis on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 08:46

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Thanks a heap for that link. A quick suck and down.

side note, when you download it watch your file name path, track 6 filename is as long as a filename can be, so if you try to extract to a folder with a long name it may not fit. Had to put mine on desktop temporary.

NOW - This is not the LP that came with the book, correct? Does any have or have converted their copy of the LP to a digital format? Can a guy get a digital copy? My LP is on the shelf, my turntable still not up and running!

Thanks all and enjoy.

oh yeah,,,, got (yet another) email from dead.net/rhino/wmg,,,,, my volume 16 45 is supposedly shipped,,,,, well see!

Has anyone gotten their Volume 16?

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 09:14

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Yeah, I thought you'd be hip to jumping on that ;)

Correct, this is the sampler that went out with regular copies of Comic I believe.

The Collector's edition included the LP with 4 tracks from 8/21/68.

Keep me posted on your journey tracking that down. As I want in on that too :)

That show should probably get released in it's entirety. But..
I probably say that about every show.

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Submitted by Oroborous on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 10:19

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3/9/85 I’m down, cool list...still have a tape from 2nd on 3/13. Maybe I’ll do that for extra credit. Haven’t listened to any 85 since I did summer tour this past summer...

4/26/72: did the condensed released version. Funny how E72 still amazes me. Yes I know in my head that it’s top shelf stuff, but then I put it on and they always seems to wow me when I haven’t checked it out in a while. It’s kinda like gettin’ some....you know it’s good, but if it’s a been awhile, and then you get some and REMEMBER just how good that ole thang is...don’t even need “her leg up against the wall” or a touch of mojo hand!

6/19/94: enjoyed! Nice change up after 12/26/69. Yes PF that space, TOO etc is really something. I take it it was too much for you, lol, but my weird ass loved that shite! TOO reminded me of the 72 space ones (sorta).
Throughout that whole section of show you could tell they were really getting into it, not just killing time which sometimes in later years is what it unfortunately felt like.
I didn’t think they got that out there anymore. Need to find more 90s shows with big weirdness!
I had it on while running up and dow n the stairs—(trying to get balanced audio link between my 2 main systems etc..)
—but what I heard I liked. JG sounded the good from what I’ve heard from 94, though I don’t often like the sound of that guitar.
It could be from the simulator circuitry and not using real speakers, but I’m pretty sure they started that back in 92 so I’m thinking its the guitar? Hmmm, I’ll have to look into more of that...but yeah, besides the occasional weird guitar sound, I liked it. Reinforces my need to dig into the later years.

Such a juxtaposition from 12/26/69. Really dug that too, but it’s funny how much more professional they became through the years, aided of course by tons of tech advancements. But that’s also a two edged sword as imho I felt they started eventually sounding too sterile/plastic, Bob especially got even worse about dicking around in later years.

12/26 had some cool unusual tunes along with many of the usual suspects of the era, including a short but groovy Dark Star.
Cool picks, really enjoying the variety lately!
Ok, onward to 1985!

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Submitted by bolo24 on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 14:12

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Home of the mighty Warriors of Stanislaus State. We used to hop on the bus for the lovely drive to Turlock every year to play them (baseball).

One year in the mid-seventies we voted their entire team to our "All -Ugly" team. Yes, we were young stupid, brash and judgemental. Lotta fun, though.

The Dead played in Turlock on 2/16/1968. Apparently not in the archive, so not much is known about the show. Heard it had a 30 minute "What's Become Of The Baby?"

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Submitted by billy the kid on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 14:17

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I was at this show, I do remember the Cumberland and all & all it seemed.like a pretty good show. Lotta good shows in 85 Frost , Greek & Ventura all winners.

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Submitted by Oroborous on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 14:24

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and hasn’t missed a beat!

3/9/85s check, been dug! Nice pick, it’s no secret I love me some good 85.

I knew that 85 pick would bring you out Oroborous. It is like the call of the wild, 85? Did somebody say 85. My opinion of 85 has changed somewhat over the years. At the time, I didn't know the future. All part of the Dead story.

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Submitted by bluecrow on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 18:23

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Blossom Music Center - 6/25. Great show that seems to be a bit under the radar

Hunter Seamons matrix sounds mighty fine - https://relisten.net/grateful-dead/1985/06/25?source=94738

Charlie Miller board also - https://relisten.net/grateful-dead/1985/06/25?source=108160

what's become of the baby? don't get me started . . . .

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Submitted by bob t on Sat, 01/30/2021 - 06:03

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In same boat as Jim, had the Blossom tape early also... Plus grew up 50 miles away so in Ohio terms that's in your back yard.... First day of winter here temperature wise. Have a good weekend everyone. Bob T

Good Call BlueCrow
I gotta shout out some Blossom love with you all too.

Those '85 Amy boards got me hooked BITD, after constant listens to Blossom & Riverbend, growing up in Ohio, I got on the bus and headed to Cincinnati and caught my first show summer '86.

Always wished I'd gotten on 1 year earlier :) But I'm pretty convinced my 15 year old Brain would've melted down into a gooey puddle, cause my 16 year old brain got mashed.

So let's fire it up!

BTW - 6/19/94 is a fun listen. It's taken me awhile and I did parts, but all that Other One talk, I had to go back and check it. Jerry had the love for Eugene, Nice!

PS - The 2018 Miller upgrade of 6/25 smokes the multi-gen tape I had growing up :)
I would've straight freaked if I coulda had this BITD... shit, kinda freaking right now. DayTripper!

ha - should have guessed maybe not so under the radar here. also had a sweet sounding tape early on - lots of energy and full crisp sound. also love the Set II opener of Gimme Some Lovin > China Cat > Rider. That rings my bell. A really fun show. hadn't thought about it for ages and then there it was yesterday - "What about Blossom?!"

6/19/94 show was big. The scene at Eugene was a bit out of control by day 3 of that run and memory says that it was already clear that Dead weren't going to be allowed back and I think that played into 6/19. Always loved the big drums> space of those latter years. If in the mood try on drumz>space at Seattle Memorial Coliseum 5/25/95 (night 2) - space led into the final Wheel. Simply and completely blown away by it all at the time. No board available - not sure which audience to go with right at the moment.