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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • #6851
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    5/28/77 To Terrapin

    I love this show. The sound quality to my ears is one of the best 77 releases to date. Jerry just seems to really be on fire the entire show. Kills it on Bertha, Sugaree is so good. New Minglewood Blues is a top 5 for me and the Brown Eyed Women is another high energy version. The Playing in the Band into Terrapin is hot. And the finish, NFA through US Blues is stellar.

    I don't think this release gets a lot of talk, but it should.

    And I think it is still available on this site for under $30!

  • #6852
    Thats_Otis
    Joined:
    To Terrapin

    I really enjoyed revisiting this release today. I remember having some mixed feelings about it when it came out, but today it sounded fresh! I've always loved that "Sugaree", and the whole 3rd disc is pure Spring of 77 butter.

    Good pick!

    Peace

  • #6853
    Gollum
    Joined:
    10/12/68

    Thanks for all the great reviews of this show. I now know I will be stuck re-listening to this show for the next couple of weeks. That's the way this thread has worked for me. I can't always keep up with the daily schedule but I've gained a whole new appreciation for some shows, namely, the 2 DP #18 shows(2/3&5/78), DP#5 (12/26/79), the Cow12/31/76. It's just been taking me a couple of weeks to grok each pick. Thanks to everyone for contributing. This thread has been one of the few highlights of this lockdown!

  • #6854
    The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Thank You Mr. Garcia!

    Yesterday's 10/12/68 pick definitely took me places.

    Places I'd been before, and new places as well.

    As said here by others, some really wonderful stuff going on throughout this magical show as the band jettisons into a new universe & explores the improvisational music cosmos.

    By October '68 Dark Star has begun to grow larger wings, but it's still a baby bird that will take flight and leave the nest soon. Of note in this version is Bear's recording (I believe) and Mickey's playing of the "Scratcher". It sounds as though Mickey's walking around on stage while he plays, at least that's how it sounds with Headphones, the instrument is truly circling around your head in this recording. How bad ass is that? And this is a bootleg from over 50 years ago!

    However, while Dark Star is just beginning to really gain strength in it's legs, St. Stephen is Standing Proud & Tall and has possibly reached it's greatest height, this is an almost absolutely perfect version of the song, and if you listen to some of the earlier versions from the summer of that year ('68 mystery reels come to mind, possibly from Carousel June '68), it's some amazing growth that this song has gone through in appx 4 months! The audience already loves this song as evident when you put on 9/2/68, within the first notes on that version the crowd starts getting so excited it throws the band off with surprise. St. Stephen, with it's William Tell Bridge, will continue to be this height for a little while longer, but will begin to diminish and shrink with age in the following year. I'm not sure it ever gets much higher than this version.

    That brings us to The Eleven, I think Bolo says it best, this version can convert a non-believer. So imagine what it does to all of us already at the church. This is an absolute ripping version of the song and all the long months of rehearsal are truly evident when you listen to the effortlessness of which they throw this song down.

    And to complete the suite they seg seamlessly into a sultry Death Don’t. Listen to Jerry sing during Death Don't, man could that guy sing a song with emotion. People would criticize that voice, but I always thought it was the most wonderful voice of all ;)

    Oh... and there's a Set 2!!!

    Which just absolutely shreds your face off, if it was still left, hanging there by a thread.

    This is manic air guitar, give you the chills, tears in your eyes, shake your head in wonder stuff here people!! I want to hear it again, and again and again!

    So like I said, it took me places, I dived deep into some '68 after this 10/12 relisten, I had to hear the next night 10/13/68 SBD (not as good, but see for yourself), 10/20/68 30 Trips release (check the difference between the Dark Star’s), and 9/2/68 (interesting recording, I need to check back on this, my mind was melted at this point and life distracted me).

    What a Trip!

    And like mentioned here, this was all during a time when Pigpen & Bobby were on thin ice and "fired" from the band.
    Fascinating.

    I believe a ’68 release or box set was mentioned, it’s hard to think that we’ll get one based on what exists (appx 37 shows / fragments) and quite a few have been released. Sadly most of Summer ’68 is a black hole, as well as the touring at the end of the year. There are definitely shows that were recorded that we don’t have, whether or not they still exist or not is a bigger question, I know Bear recorded more than we have especially in regard to the later part of the year, but for now the trail stops there and I’m afraid it is a bit cold…

    That all being said, if there was a ’68 box style release I’d vote for The Quick And The Dead tour in January - Feb ’68. Always loved that stuff, it’d be repetitive and have some warts and all feel, but shit I love it.

    Love to hear thoughts on what you all would see as potentially release worthy. This 10/12/68 show should be a definite consideration.. if they can make it sound even better I’ll be the first to drop down some cash to get it!

    You’re still here?? Crazy kids..

    After I came to earth from that I continued our little Cal Expo ’90 relisten and loved it too. I think 6/10/90 is my favorite show from the run, but you know Playing In The Band usually makes me say that. The Jack Straw is definitely worth listening too. And Phil saying he’s not gonna quit the band and it’s all a bullshit lie, with Jerry saying yeah, the rest of us are, well.. that’s priceless.

    What’re we gonna listen to today?

    Edit: 5/28/77 you say... looks promising and it's been awhile.

  • #6855
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    Today's Pick

    What's on tap for today gents?

    FourWinds, where are you?

    I might check out 5/28/77, the last night of the Spring Tour. To Terrapin Release from 2007.

  • #6856
    daverock
    Joined:
    1968 - you're fired!

    This was the year that drew me in. Back in the 70s, I had heard a few albums by the Dead, but it was only after I heard Anthem that it all clicked into place. After getting into that one, all the others started to make sense.

    Incidentally, it was in October, as I understand it, that Pigpen and Bob were...strange as it may now seem...sacked. And those Mickey and the Hartbeat shows were played between October and December, without either of them in attendance. I used to think that was why Pigpen didn't play on 10/12/68. But I could clearly be wrong - both he and Bob played a lot of shows with the Dead during the same period as the Mickey and the Hartbeat shows.

  • #6857
    DeadVikes
    Joined:
    Right on Bolo!

    I have several buddies that still refer to it as pots and pans.
    They clearly don't get it.

    So much unbelievable music! Still can't explain it to even family members.

    But every day, I still want to listen to the treasuries we have.

    More to come.

  • #6858
    Vguy72
    Joined:
    Relisten....

    ....been Relistening for a while. Cool app. The right side sidebar lets you pick the source. Less clunky than the archive for sure. Sacrilege? Maybe.
    10.12.68? I was five months old. Bring it to my diapers!!

  • #6859
    bolo24
    Joined:
    Here's the thing...

    Today's pick was recorded over 50 years ago - half a century. In 5 decades, no other music created since then comes anywhere close to what I heard today. Normally, I'd probably add "IMHO" to the end of that last sentence. Not this time - it's an indisputable fact.

    I had a non-head musician friend years ago question my over-the-top enthusiasm for the Dead, saying they were slow and sloppy, couldn't rock out, Garcia just "noodles" aimlessly, etc. In other words, the usual misinformed opinions we've all heard and read before.

    I played "The Eleven" from this show for him on a really good sound system, sat back and watched his face morph from surprise to disbelief to joy and wonder. He was literally speechless for a good chunk of time before the expected "WOW" passed his lips. An instant convert! He still blames me for his "incurable disease" on a regular basis.

    Gollum mentioned the drums. While one can intelligently debate the one- vs. two-drummer format from 1975 on, there is probably little dissension regarding the irreplaceable impact of Billy and Mickey abusing their instruments during the"primal" period. The whole band was a flat-out juggernaut during that time and the two drummers had a lot to do with that.

    What a band. So grateful that we here all "get it."

  • #6860
    Thats_Otis
    Joined:
    10/12/68

    The "Jam" before Feedback is cool - starts off in "Other One" territory, then moves to something totally original, then gets very close to "Caution" - I bet they would have gone there if Pig hadn't been missing.

    Feedback... and, goodnight!

    Does anyone know if the "Morning Dew" that starts the set on this recording (at least the one that Bolo posted) is from this show? It doesn't seem to be on the setlist.

    On to Cal Expo!

    Peace

    EDIT: It looks like "Dew" was the opener, but for some reason it was left off the set list.

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Submitted by DeadVikes on Mon, 02/15/2021 - 16:32

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Come on Oroborous, don't delete your post. I did see it. And yes, this is not this day in Grateful Dead History. I never look at that site, so I don't follow what they post each day. Some shows are worth a listen, but variety is welcome for sure.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 08:35

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Ice & Snow kicked me off the internet for a day.
It was tough, let me tell ya.
Not sure how we grew up without this stuff ;)

Or, good thing we didn't have this when I was a kid or I never would've gone outside.

While I was in the wilderness without the internet, there was another Nudie suit sighting.
3/18/73 NRPS show
I'm listening to it now, the NRPS were wearing their Nudie Suits, and Keith, Donna, Bobby & Jerry all join the boys on the stage. They're talking to somebody from the bands and he says "we couldn't get Garcia to wear his though". So not sure if Keith Donna & Bobby have theirs on or not, they'd wear them the next night for the final time.

Pretty neat.

Digging the show, there's a nice FM copy on Archive here if you've not heard it -
https://archive.org/details/nrps1973-03-18.fm.weiner.21538.sbeok.shnf

There's a Willie and the Hand Jive that Garcia plays on.
(Since we've been discussing '86 and the Hand Jive has popped up, figure that was relevant)

The other thing I was learning yesterday without the internet was about the Carousel shows March 29-31, 1968.
Smoking stuff!!
Based on what I'm reading and hearing, I think 3/31/68 is the night Jerry pushed Phil.
You Play Goddammit!
If you want to flip your lid, listen to the Caution from 3/31... GODDAMN!
Some of that was definitely used on Anthem, and it's totally off the rails.
Wonder what the story is on these Reels in the Vault?

Well, there you go.
Who's got a pick?

EDIT - Oh yeah, I started to read up on Nanao but then lost the wi-fi, far out. Strikes me as a peaceful warrior.
Speaking of, you all ever read Peaceful Warrior? I read it when I was a kid, I think Dan Millman was the trapeze artist at the Trips Festival, trippy huh?!?!

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Submitted by Oroborous on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 11:03

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...yeah I know, deep subject (cue rim shot!) hey-ooo.
I see there are dates and ideas, but do we have a pick?

If not I’d like to suggest 2 ideas.
1) 5/3/86 from boxilla. Still haven’t got to this one and all this 86 talk makes me want to try some 86. Also. need my device for other stuff...
2) Capitol 71 run: I know Striders been anxiously prepping for the 18th, and yes though I get bored with same old repetitive anniversaries, this is different. This is like the difference between your unpteenth anniversary, (sorry Love!) and your 50th wedding Anniversary! So since we’ve been floundering a bit lately, how bout we start on the 18th and go the whole Capitol Run. If nothing else it’s like wearing a uniform to work; ya don’t have to think about what to ware in the morning! ; )
Or not, just a thought.

GOGD: have a research project if your interested. I can’t seem to find which Spectrum show had Wrestling before the Dead? I’m sure it was at the Spectrum, but I’m not sure if it was 86 or 87? I tried to cross reference with WWF 86 schedule but no luck, then I ran outta time...maybe their was a different “league” or something? I looked at comments on the archive too, but nobody mentions it? I’m not sure I’ll have that kinda time, but knowing you like to ferret these oddities out, thought you might enjoy it? I know we enjoy your adventures in the pursuit of all things Dead!

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 11:56

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I'll listen to 5/3/86 and I'll listen to the whole Capitol 71 Run.

It's on.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 12:25

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....I'm listening to 12.15.86. Been diving down that '86 rabbit hole recently.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 13:17

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Wonder how often you hear Heads gettin' stoked on '86?

Set 1 from 5/3 is fun.
Set 2 is beginning.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 13:46

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Enough time has passed

3 31 86 should have been on my list earlier

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Submitted by Oroborous on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 15:34

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Not too shabby!
Fun little first, of course 86 short.., good opener for gray cold morning,.second set is pretty good, might go again just cause...Played so loud JGs voice coils seized up, too funny! So far I don’t think I’ve heard a bad show from Boxilla, sure maybe not all killer, but not a bad one so far...
Yeah, diggin the 86, anyone know of any more goodins send em along so I can write em down,
Thanks! I’d say grab another tomorrow before we go down the Capitol hole, but that’s up to y’all, don’t wanna be greedy! ; )

EDIT: add 3/31and 12/15 to list ✔️

I have fond memories of that song deep into the pre-drums set two dogma.. typically filling the Ship of Fools or Sampson segment just before it gets into deep space. There's a Hampton, a Merriweather and an Augusta that come to mind.

Personal to me, but some really fond memories and I still dig this tune.

(edit, I did not make Augusta, still kicking myself in the ass for that one)

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Submitted by Oroborous on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 06:26

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Sounds good DV!
Just got a real gone copy...I’ve had a copy copy, but just today got my hard copy...so it’s a sign!

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 07:28

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50th anniversary tomorrow. So let me throw my lucky Stetson hat in the ring. Tomorrow’s pick , 2/18/71. Will work on some kind of reminiscent writing.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 08:45

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Loud and proud

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 08:48

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As fate would have it, I listened to that recently.

Excellent choice

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 13:52

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Dave's Picks #23! What a high energy show this is. That He's Gone into The Other One. Wow! At almost 40 minutes, I would have been drained at the end of that version, jazzy and spacey.
Fall 72 and this one delivers the whole show minus the encore I believe.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 17:04

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:)))

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 22:15

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Time for you to go back where you belong.

Looking forward to the Multi Track spectacular 2/18/71.

Ready for this too.

I primed my interest with 2/21 last night into shoveling this morning. My second listen since the reissue, and this one popped on many levels - I got much more out of this than the first listen. This will mark my second listen of 2/18 since the reissue. These releases are gems.

Enjoy all.. we heard from Doc regarding this show on the Dave's Picks thread.. bet we hear from Strider on this one.

Cease the day folks.. make the best you can out of 2/18/2021.

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Submitted by Oroborous on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 07:30

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Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy, big 50th today, I know Striders Stoked ; )
I am too, stoked for some multi-track grooviness! and a great way to kick off the run!
Boo ya, a real Bobbie Dazzler eh!

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 07:47

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I wrote a long piece in pencil before sunrise this morning. I’ve decided to post it on the dead.net page , Grateful Dead 2/18/71 as it will last longer than the American Beauty 50th page and maybe even this pick of the day page. Yes , I’m stoked. Where is Doc@11 ?

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 08:34

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Hola Strider.. looking for your 2/18 recap.. Where did you post it? I looked on the 2/18 page and there is a short paragraph starting with someone attempting to rob you outside the show, "give me your money..." A little scary, but hilarious at the same time.

I enjoy the personal GD stories, especially ones that go this far back.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 08:34

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In fact.. looking forward to the write-up so much I had to post it twice.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 08:44

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Ditto Jim!

I'm looking forward to Strider's 2/18/71 Liner Notes to enjoy with these tunes.
I think he's working on them :)
This Dark Star is good to listen to.

Speaking of Dark Stars, Rob Eaton is having a hard year so far.
Charlie Miller mentioned he's dealing with the Covid now.
Send positive Vibes Rob's way.
Here's some info and hoping to help spread the word of his GoFundMe if it hasn't already made the rounds -
https://www.gratefulweb.com/articles/dark-star-orchestras-rob-eaton-lau…

Everybody that listens to this music has a lot to thank Rob for and there's good people here.
Send out that joy and reflect some back at him.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 09:42

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....I clicked that link, but didn't see anything about Covid. Cool site though. I you scroll down, there some neat GD stuff for sale (I'm looking at you Dancing Bear wine bottle stopper).

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 09:51

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Yeah, way cool site, I need to spend more time digging through it.

Just heard about the Covid news this AM, so wanted to bump the GoFundMe.

F Covid!

You are correct sir.. seems to only be one audience copy that circulates. And it's not great, just ok.

I miss NRPS, RIP John/Buddy. They were endlessly touring before Buddy Cage got sick and were easy to catch.. one of those bands you see time after time and it never got old. David Nelson is still around, but he doesn't seem to make it too far out of CA and HI, and that is back when we used to have live music... And the last time I saw them he seemed a big fragile. They guy is authentic, a living legend in my humble opinion. I was just listening to one of their last studio albums a couple days ago while cooking some dinner. Where I Come From.. a really nice album.

Had a great time with this show today.. did 2/21 yesterday and when 2.18 ended I went right back into the first six or seven songs of 2.21 again. Loved it..

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 21:38

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Fantastic show. Sound quality is A+. That Dark Star, Wharf Rat, Dark Star, Me and My Uncle are worth the price of admission. And yes, I said Me and My Uncle.
Looking forward to 2/21/71 soon.

So much great music to explore, we are a lucky bunch....... Okay back to try the..

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 07:42

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Listened to 2/18/71 starting at sunset. Then I started 2/19/71 just before midnight (hour) . With first verse of Loser when the clock struck 12 o’clock (High) 2/19/21 finished complete show. Still up before the sun this morning. Listening to 2/19 a second go-round this morning “I know she’s in the world somewhere” . “ I can’t wait that long to walk around the world “. Wow, the original five or as David Gans said ,”the quintessential quintet”. Smokestack Lightning “ is so smooth and driven, bad and beautiful.”

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Submitted by Tom_Tom on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 08:20

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Well I ordered the Dave's Picks Vol.37 the day it came out !...I HAVE NOT Received it, I contracted Dead.net, Only to get a Auto-Reply indicating they would get back to me with in a few days, Needless to say , It was charged to my Credit Card but I never got my CD, Ive had trouble ordering quite a few times in the Past, And now there is NO WAY to call and speak to a Human Being ! Ive been a Dedicated buyer of almost EVERY Dicks / Dave's picks as well as the Road Trips CDs... I do not order the Yearly Subscription for a few reasons , One of them being the cost, I just cant afford it during these troubled times, I prefer to order CDs when they come out Individually,...Now the CD is SOLD OUT...Why is this happening ?..Is it because of the State I live in ? (New Mexico)...I have no other problems when ordering other Items from other Shippers, I am totally Disgusted with the way things are being done at Dead.net and Ive been thinking maybe its time for me just to move on ....(Please excuse my typing, as my computers keyboard is a bit messed up)...THANK YOU ...TOMAS .

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 08:41

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I realize I bought the killer vinyl versions of From the Vault (1,2,&3) . Virgin vinyl. That’s five Vs.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 09:08

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If you ordered a la carte, give it a few more days.

The days of talking to real people are vanishing. Like, 98% gone. "Go to our website" is the only option given. But remember, "your call is important to us". Lol...

"Artificial Intelligence" and all that shit.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 09:22

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Gonna listen to some Grateful Dead today.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 09:53

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I have found a rare dud

9 30 80 through hes gone is "HEY! WHO NEEDS COFFEE?"

Hopefully things will get livelier.

After blissing out to 12 30 79 last evening, this show is quite a contrast.

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Submitted by Oroborous on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:03

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...2/19/71 and let me tell ya...I got no chance of losing THIS time!

2/18/71: upon future review, I’m with DOC 11, it’s a good show, but perhaps a tad overhyped...
I used to feel this way in the past, then when I received the 50th multi tracks, I flipped out at how good it sounds, and really dug it, like top shelf where mama hides the cookies, but now I’m a bit more conservative?
Yassss it’s a sexy show with those 5 newbies, and it has that little but First set Dark Star, with a pretty damn good Rat for first time as the meat in the sandwich (damn this 2/19 Cumberlands good for typing!) and I forgot about the Saint Steve’s, but it’s a bit organic overall; their not that tight on some things and the guitars where more outta tune then I recall.
Now before ya wish upon me eternal damnation, I’m just giving it the critical thinking treatment. I still love it, I enjoy it, especially the multi-track goodness, but I already understand why they picked 2/19 over this one for the vault release, and I’m only up to hurts me too...
But now I’m really itching to do this whole run because it really is the coolest way to compare the shows and get the possible underlying adjustments and evolution etc..
Ok, nuff talk,...shut up and turn it up!

Edit: 2/19 Bertha: whoa, easy there Billy! Just a tad different then the previous night lol..

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:48

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Check out hes gone

Sleeeeeeeeeepyyyyyy....

The next track is awake. My coffee idea worked!

At least for now...time will tell

Coffee courtesy of DarkStarbucks

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Submitted by daverock on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:48

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Orobouros - yes 2/19 sounds of a higher order to me than 2/18. More people on stage for the 18th, and neither adding a great deal, it has to be said. Maybe the others felt the same way as Ned and Mickey only played that first night. Once they were down to the original 5 the sound of 1971 crystallized.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:54

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First set is a melty dream
Second set has the chandelier thing
All those new tunes throughout
And now Saint Stephen without that horrific splice

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Submitted by Oroborous on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 13:18

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Wow..yeah, imho they sound way more together. The previous nights newbies are improved, listen to Phil on Playing both nights, back to back, and compare; there’s more jams; the bacon is greasier, sheeeooot, the Smokestack is worth the price of admission in itself!
That Smokestack was so good I had to listen a second time!
Now, I may know relatively little of 71 specifics, but to me, that Smokestack is THE sound of the Pre KG GD! If someone asked me to play 1 thing as an example of that time I’d have no problem wiping this out! Bobble Dazzler indeed.

The Cryptical suite was, well, pretty sweet ; ) listened to that again too! Also repeats of 1st Bird Song and Deal. Almost hard to believe these are first timers. Easy Wind...fo-git-bout-it! Pass me the napkins! Nice Dark Hollow to provide some variety, and hey, it’s got a Cumberland!
Yeah, 2/18 is a fine show, but this bad boy hangs where mama hides the cookies!
Looking forward to tomorrow 2/20/71 as I’ve not heard that one before...