• 8,084 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

Comments

sort by
Recent
Reset
  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Pittsburgh

    More a relation to timing, cash flow and where I was in college at the time, but I saw more shows in 87 than any other year. Plus.. I was kind of freaked by the 86 coma, which lead to full throttle 87 and Pittsburgh was less than two hours from where I was living at the time.

    I was there and it was a hoot. I was just beginning to know what the Nevilles were all about.

    What I remember from the whole thing was first that Jerry was looking and sounding better as the year went on. Second.. I was there with a bunch of college buddies and I could not wait long enough to ditch them and spend most of the show alone, just me and my girlfriend at the time. Something about people you don't know that well, that probably aren't that into the dead anyway talking while you are finding your footing is really annoying. So by Row Jimmy we had separated from anything resembling the crowd we arrived with and had achieved lift off.

    I have not listened to this since I was there until today. What a nice road trip and both brings back memories and reminds me how little I still remember. I do remember the Neville's centric second set and the drive back home a good bit.

    Well, that's the best I can recall.

    Oh, this might have been the day or the we ek that In the Dark was released. At first I was ecstatic, later deflated.. it was the beginning of the end of sorts.. We were no longer a small town, under the radar thing. It was so much more fun when were were under the radar.

    Oh.. and Otis.. it was hot as balls here today, and we are usually 10 to 15 degrees cooler than you. Great day on the river though. This working less stuff is a ok with me.

    CAUTION - DRIVER LISTENING TO HOT SHAKEDOWN. Truly the funniest thing I have heard all month. Hilarious, I want one of those stickers!

  • bluecrow
    Joined:
    7-6-87 - yep, it WAS a whole lotta fun

    hi everybody!! sorry, its been awhile posting, but i check in all the time on this oasis of friendship and good cheer.
    Pittsburgh 87 was one of only 4 east coast shows i saw (Hampton 88 the other three). I'd seen the Alpine shows, then went fishing with Dad and brother in Canada. just got back day before show. left Chicago area at dawn. for some reason took the scenic route, driving some US highway rather than the interstate. got a speeding ticket as I crossed into Ohio (65 to 55 speed trap) - boo. as i said goodbye to the kind officer i asked him how far to Pittsburgh? he looked at me funny - Pittsburgh??? long long day driving, lots of winding roads i think as i got further east but somehow made it to the arena. back in those days i would get to some confusing unknown city and just follow the cars that looked like they knew where they were going. just now flashed on a bumper sticker i saw wandering the lot that evening unwinding before the show -
    CAUTION - DRIVER LISTENING TO HOT SHAKEDOWN
    yeah, for real
    it was a heart of gold night. mail order ticket, might have been a GA show, but I was in the second level stage left. surrounded by kind strangers. more than a few empty seats in the arena i think. relaxed. really fun first set. remember Desolation Row as big cool surprise.
    and then that SHAKEDOWN - holy shit!!!! Jerry scat singing!! Phil!! craziness!! out of body rush just thinking about it!!
    and then "We ran into some of our friends the Neville Brothers" and its like you have got to be freaking kidding - Iko > Day-o > Women Smarter!! still have a dream vision of the stage during Day-O. yeah it was like a dream! coming out of space the whole place was buzzing with dylan energy, that bob d would join them. close. he was there in spirit. the knockin on heaven's door was one of the most righteous dead moments i ever witnessed. another vision of the stage as it lead to the first verse - unearthly blue/green lighting, the Nevilles, shadowed, slowly joining the boys. tears in my eyes. great good lovin set closer. then johnny b goode. super energy. smiles everywhere.
    at some point during the drive that afternoon i'd wondered what the heck i was doing. i left that show filled with contentment and happiness. of course i'm totally lost when i try to find my way out of town. most traffic long gone. i'm at a stop light, drifting in my own thoughts, when I look to my right and a couple of officers in a patrol car are 5 ft away giving me the real hairy eyeball. seconds from big trouble. I lean over, roll down the window, and ask Hi - which way to Ohio? the expression of the officer at the wheel suddenly goes from doom to Sure, let me help! Ohio? you take a left at this light! I'm like Great!! Thank you!! seconds later light turns green, i turn left, and make my getaway across some bridge. whew. at some early am rest area i remember a fellow traveler asking if I was headed to Roanoke. sigh. the answer was no - heck I didn't even know the next shows were in Roanoke. 10 years later i got to know shannon way out west. and she was from virginia and yeah the roanoke shows were way hot!! as for me, the next shows i saw were Red Rocks
    i'm listening to the Zaleski version on relisten right now - it sounds freaking fantastic, amazing pull, highly recommend!!
    https://relisten.net/grateful-dead/1987/07/06?source=95912
    man, '87 was a fun year, with the newly re-energized Jerry. this brings back a lot of sweet memories.
    stay healthy and be safe!!

  • Zomby Woof
    Default Avatar
    Joined:
    7/6/87

    This show might just be the most-listened to show in my listening history. I think it is so much fun, it is near the top of the list of shows I wish i had attended. Enjoy!

  • Thats_Otis
    Joined:
    7/6/87, another fine pick!

    I love that this board has gone more into the archives. I love the official releases, but there are so many gems in the ol' mine that sticking to just the releases exclusively would mean missing out on shows like this.

    Hooking it up to the stereo, hitting play, and spending as much of the day in the AC as possible. It is brutal around these parts... but a good book and a good show make it bearable. I hope everyone had a great July 4th weekend!

    Peace

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    Pitt '87....

    ....that setlist looks tasty.

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    7/6/87

    Let's do it!

  • wilfredtjones
    Joined:
    Shakedown '80

    It's interesting how few times they played Shakedown Street in 1980. I know there's the one from Lewiston, ME in Sept. and the one enshrined on RT 3.4 Penn State/Ithaca. There's one too in Chicago, but not many more that year.

    7/6/87 is fun with the post-Space surprises. Enjoy if you tune into that! It would come with a recommendation from at least 2 of us, ;-)

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Pittsburgh ‘87 tomorrow

    Hey y’all

    Hoping to revisit 7/6/87 tomorrow

    Rockin’ show and the boys bring the party to Pittsburg.
    Just listen to Jerry on Shakedown and the crowd reaction throughout.

    Hope you’ll check it out!

    https://archive.org/details/gd1987-07-06.142086.sbd.miller.flac2496

    Start your week off with a bang

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    ahhh

    We did the 78 Spectrum show today, considering there is 24 minutes left in the day here, I am not sure I am going to catch up to that one... They were playing the 87 Spectrum show on SiriusXM either yesterday or today,

    RIP Spectrum.. hosted some epic shows.

    First crabs of the year today.. not bad for so early in the season. Crabs, beer and NRPS.

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    RE: 5/13/78

    Nice! Yeah I dig that show it was taking me places.

    So no Set 1 SBD but the audience recording sounds pretty darn good once they get some PA issues fixed, evens out towards the end of Jack Straw.

    TMNS closer was part of 30 Days 2017 btw and it cooks!

    Check it out and glad you gave it a spin and are diggin’ it. I’ve been on a ‘78 kick since you mentioned 5/14, checked out 12/30 & watched 12/31 last night... them’s some good jams!

user picture

Member for

17 years 5 months
Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
user picture

Member for

13 years 4 months

In reply to by Dennis

Permalink

I guess I am the opposite. If I eat enough.. by the time I come down you can list the house as new. I get into details like that..

Stated another way, nobody likes housework, but if you have to do it.. it numbs the pain quite nicely. ...and it had to get done.

Dennis.. at the very least hit up the Let It Grow, and the second set. A fun show that I had never heard before. Also, I will shoot you some pictures tonight when I get back..

user picture

Member for

12 years

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

Nice, but my vote for GREATEST LET IT GROW goes to 12/31/85, the NYE show, that Let it Grow is a monster. Jerry is on fire seems uncontainable. Bobby rhythms are front and center in my copy,,,, Brent's keys are anything but "plinky" to me and the drummers sound like they've taken a blackjack to the skins. GREATEST 4 Sure!!

But 83,,,, great year. A couple of weeks b4 at the Meadowlands (4/16/83) has the greatest LL Rain at about the 7 minute mark Jerry is on fire, I don't think he could squeeze anymore notes into a measure. Bobby vocals are right there. My fave!!!!

On the subject of Let it Grow since you are the canoe man,,,,, sorry kayaking man,,,, I always visualize Let it Grow as a great example of moving from running the rapids (at incredible speeds) and spilling into mirror smooth water. Do you find Let it Grow a great kayak song?

I will definitely check that one out.

Yes.. I have definitely listened to hot LIG's when hitting the harder stuff. Sometimes music helps me get into a groove, into the flow and helps with timing and muscle memory. ..but pick the wrong music and it can work against you. No more scary dark stars on really difficult stuff with consequences.. bad trip music can manifest itself into upside-downness in a hurry. Which is bad.

user picture

Member for

8 years

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

Jim, I am a day late but I am going back to Dave's #35, 4/20/84. This show continues to get better to my ears after each listen, so I am looking forward to it.

Funny how I don't come 'round here no more. I'm a binge drinker personality, I suppose.

JimInMD:
I'm in for 12/31/85. One I've had on cassette for years. Unfortunately Let It Grow did not leave such an indelible mark on my memory... or well, never mind... Definitely looking forward to revisiting it based on Dennis' assessment. Interesting how things can just pass you by sometimes. My main memory of 12/31/85 is Ken Kesey on the FM, or wherever it was that my copy was dubbed from. Man, to me, this show is all about that Kesey intro. Gold.

DeadVikes:
I go back to the 4/20/85 show a lot, too. I'd never heard it until it came up as pick of the day earlier this year, but that was definitely a find for me. Thanks, everyone!

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

that Baltimore show from March '73 is super fantastic cool. release it dave.

that Shakedown opener from 4/26/83 is top shelf.

user picture

Member for

4 years 3 months

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

12/31/85

Thanks for giving me an excuse to break out this old familiar that hasn't had a listen in a while.

Out of the gate like a rocket with Touch ...just a touch too fast.

Everybody takes a deep breath and, somewhat ironically, they take Tons of Steel at a much more sensible pace. Sounds like Brent's playing a DX-7. Bobby seems to give a little off-mic HAA! just before the guitar solo.

CC Rider keeps it on a slow boil until Brent stokes the flames with his B3 during the second round of solos. I love the guy to death, but I've never really been able to buy Bobby as a blues man, despite his apprenticeship to Pig, but this thing is really escalates into a resounding climax. Hot stuff.

Dupree's is a cool song to have back, but they probably should have thought about doing it in a different key 'cause it's totally out of Jerry's vocal range at this point.

Cassidy. Love this tune. Feels more like a Brent lead vocal as Bobby is almost rapping it, while Brent carries the melody. Jam feels good with the drummers going off as usual, but it feels more like a warm up, seeming to end rather quickly.

Brown Eyed Women, man, this is like all time hall-of-fame level piece of songwriting and it's criminal that this isn't well-known outside of Dead circles. I love the "drink down a bottle and you're ready to kill" line, but "the bottle was dusty but the liquor was clean"? just sheer brilliance. One vivid image after another.

Not sure if the rhythm section listened to Bobby's admonitions about getting too busy before Let It Grow. It's all full of 16s and marching rudiments. Phil's takin' it kinda easy, but it's hard to say if he should really be lumped in with the rhythm section. Jer tears into that first solo. You can really hear the trumpet influenced lines he's playing even without the MIDI. The interplay between Jerry and Bobby during the full-on jam is such a web of strings and inversions, they're blending into a two headed, 12 stringed southwestern psychedelic beast. Behind them the percussionists flow like a gurgling stream with Bent's synth weaving in and out of their groove. They just fall into the return melody without ever actually going into full unison, but rising toward it like sunshine into the cool desert air.

Ahhh, the Father Guido Sarducci and Ken Kesey countdown. I don't know how many time's I've heard this, but it still cracks me up to this day. "It's a representation of the U.S.S. Miramack!" "It's an enormous Perry Como!" "It's Rasputin, FDR, and Eric Clapton!" "That's not Eric Clapton." Poor Guido. "I'm outa here" lol.

I love Bobby's little Blues Brothers shtick during Midnight Hour, and he sounds genuinely hurt when Phil later welcomes the home audience when he's just done it twice!

I let Sugaree and Man Smart Woman Smarter go by as I was typing, but basically more good stuff

Ship of Fools seems like a tune that just doesn't get enough plays.

Compact Playin'. They seem to be stacking the set, but at the same time also keeping an eye on the clock for the broadcast, or something. The second of two hot Bobby jams that we just get a taste of. Was that a hint of guitar synth?

Certainly not complaining about this Terrapin getting plenty of room. They nail it. A nice, long drums/space jam follows on.

Bobby's in a talky mood, making rare comment about the ragged Truckin'.

Black Peter has a relatively brisk shuffle going on. I like this one best as a dirge, but they've got a lotta NFA and Throwin' Stones ahead of them, I guess. Nice interplay between Brent and Bobby's vocals. At some points it the two songs become pretty much indistinguishable.

My tape has Mississippi Half Step, and the "We want Phil" "You can't have him" Tom Thumb from 6/29/86 Alpine Valley as filler, and then Box of Rain from RFK 7/7/86 as filler. Talk about a couple of infamous heat wave gigs. These selections reveal nothing of the apparent travails.

"If you're looking to get silly, you came to the right place!" Indeed.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

Gave 12/31/85 a whirl while working yesterday. Unfortunately got a call during LIG, so I’ll need to hit that again.
Hell, really need to do the whole thing again...wasn’t this one on pay for view BITD?

user picture

Member for

4 years 3 months

In reply to by Dennis

Permalink

After actually looking at 12/31/85, my tape is clearly labelled "FM", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's labelled correctly. ;) Bobby (and Phil) shout out to both the radio and TV audience at various times during the show, so it might have been PPV, or just on Bay Area public access maybe. lol.

Anybody up for 5/3/72 next? Did we already already do this last month while I wasn't paying attention?

Just got my Olympia Theater Record Store Day vinyl. Despite this being the Donna tripping under the piano show, I'm gonna get my exercise tonight gettin' up and down to flip the record. smh. lol. What can I say? I'm a vinyl junkie. Didn't even hafta order it from overseas. Wish I could post pics. It's a thing a beauty. The Euro72 box being made of unobtanium, this'll hafta do.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

Start with white walls , in a room not the tires. Eat 500 micrograms of LSD. It really works swell .
It also brings out the 3D.
This is strictly a joke. Micro-dosing is a buzz phrase for a reason.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

like my earth paints - Morrison, Chinle, Kayenta, Moenkopi

user picture

Member for

9 years

In reply to by icecrmcnkd

Permalink

My last several posts on the DaP38 page have been blocked because I tried to post a ‘connection’ (the ‘L’ word has been banned) to the list of returned reels.

Then I come here and there are still posts that can be called that greasy red meat in a can from Hormel (I suspect that the actual word has also been banned).

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

Still need to rehit 12/31/85. Think this is the year my buddy had a PPV party and we brought my big stereo over to his house so had like three or four rooms with TVs and some kind of sound going, with different vibes in different rooms.
Of course we hung out in the serious room, with the big system and full immersion lol, FREAKS!
Or was it 84?

Did hit up DaP 37 again, man I really dig that one. Really need to hear more of that spring tour...
Hit DaP 38 bonus disc on Wednesday. Played/enjoyed the actual disc and didn’t turn it up too much so not as distracted by the distortion noise...

Might try to read today so maybe no tunes : (
Jon Evison, my favorite “newer” author, and a cool dude (have had the pleasure of hanging with him a couple times), has a new book out: Legends of the North Cascades. New books by favorite authors is perhaps as good as new Dead releases!

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

I bought my last tickets for my last Grateful Dead concerts (Salt Lake City , February 1995) from school teachers from Tuba City. Blue Crow, I know all those places you mentioned intimately. And Morrison must mean Red Rocks. Saw the Dead there six times, 1984 and 1985. We’ve probably crossed trails many times.
And I used to think spam was just a canned meat product.
I do love Canned Heat though. Alan (Blind Owl) Wilson, Bob (the Bear) Hite, Larry (the mole) Taylor, Henry Vestine, Harvey Mandel, and “Fito” de la Parra.
They were NOT just another band from L.A.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by Strider 808808

Permalink

Strider - all towns i know and all share a name with a geological formation - some of the towns are type localities for the geology and some are not exactly so it seems. all have clays that can made into paint (or so i believe at least as to Moenkopi - we thought some nice pale yellow clay was from that formation.) And all beautiful as "painted earth" as exposed on the surface here and there in the west. There's the Painted Desert and a whole lot more painted desert. I had forgotten that the Morrison Formation, which locally is exposed just north of here (and big deal in terms of local geology and archaeology, a lithic and clay source) was named for Morrison, CO, all the way over on the front range and aka the home of Red Rocks! Saw the'87 shows there. You landed in the SW earlier than I but no doubt our paths have crossed. almost 25 in UT and work has had me spend a lot of time down in NM the last 10 years.
Fruit and nut update. All the peaches dropped, which was really sad especially since I thought it would be a bumper crop. guessing because we had some unusually cold mornings in mid-May, right at freezing and really late for those temps in spring. Funny thing though - I do have some apricots (just ripening now) and almonds (not quite yet), both of which bloom before peaches and are more susceptible to cold!! So yes some almonds, bro, this year. Ate a few raw the last time, good, and left the rest for my brothers the scrub jays. They loved them. They would pick out the nut, fly it to a nearby russian olive, and peck it open to get the seed. Stay cool down there.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

Two weeks ago the low temperature at dawn was 47 degrees, the high by early afternoon was 100 degrees. We only get 50 degree plus temperature changes in the same day a few days a year.
Something about red sandstone is really pleasing to the eyes. And soul. If you’re ever in Gallup area I designed, engineered and helped build the trail to the top of Pyramid Rock in Red Rock Park. The Garcia guitar metal sculpture “Rosebud” is also a must see.
Link Wray was from the Shawnee Tribe. If we don’t have to read about “whatever’s” OK.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by Strider 808808

Permalink

that's your work? very very cool. hiked it a couple of times (Dec. 2012?) when i was spending part of each week in Gallup monitoring some of the water pipeline construction around town. normally I was 4 on and 3 off and back home but for some schedule reason had a day or 2, or maybe just part of days off and had to still be in Gallup and that's what came up as a nearby place to hike. i remember being surprised by an historic Navajo sweat that was literally just off trail, sort of hiding in plain sight. also wandered some of the foot paths that branched off from the main trail. at some point along the base of the whole thing poking around looking for rock art. there was some cool and unusual historic stuff there tucked back in shadowed rincons. maybe you saw "nice butt cutie"?

those 50 degree temperature swings are always something. lately we haven't been cooling off much, just hot. this morning was first below 70 in at least a week, but a couple weeks ago when this round first started the last truly cool morning I was amazed to see that it was 48 degrees soon to be at or near triple digits, maybe the same day as down there? seems that those big swings often show up in late August / early September as reminder that yes fall is coming.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

that its the solstice got me thinking about a pair of shows that were a whole lot of fun and fell just days after.

6/23/90 and 6/24/90, Autzen Stadium, Eugene. My first shows in the NW. Little Feat opened both days. Huge 2nd sets each day. Peak excellence.

Bluecrow, 6/23/90, okay, sounds like we have a pick for today. Thanks!

Just finishing up Dave's 34. Very relaxing listen to this gem again. Love that Jam out of Seastones, Ship a Fools, Big River and the Black Peter!

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

DV - a gem indeed!! Been spinning Disc 3 in the ride last few days. that Spanish Jam may be my favorite and I love the US Blues that comes flying out of it.

Have fun in Eugene!

Hmmm, sounds good. Coming from ole BC I bet I’ll like it

This is such BULLSHIT, can’t even use an exclamation point?

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by Oroborous

Permalink

Nice smooth, sorta laid back west coaster, nice for a lazy afternoon!

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

The film is so amazing, don’t miss it. Looks like the band and the few people there just couldn’t
“Stay off the Grass” that night. Private parties don’t get any better.

user picture

Member for

13 years 4 months

In reply to by Strider 808808

Permalink

One of my favorite movie nights.. I don't believe the band owns or has possession of the film.. so there is some conflict on ever getting this released. Still, it's there.. big and beautiful. ..and really well recorded and I am guessing they have these master reels in the vault by now....

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

thanks for seconding Doc's rec yesterday. that movie is something else. just a little gig in the back yard.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

Both film and complete audio were nothing less than extraordinary. “Keep off the grass” must have been countered with “Ignore Alien Orders”. One catchy phrase deserves another.

Yea.. we can't post goofy crap anymore. Like in-depth analysis of everybody's favorite fun show Lancelot Linq, Secret Chimp.

user picture

Member for

9 years

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

Not true, there are a bunch on this page.
Must be grandfathered in.

dead net

forum

dead-related-sites

user picture

Member for

14 years 11 months
Permalink

Been on the road and out of touch, so how about a little "Two From The Vault" for tomorrow? Unless it's been done, of course.

Assume everyone has received the box set email by now.

user picture

Member for

4 years 11 months
Permalink

I got it this morning! Wow,what a cool box set, completely unexpected!

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by billy the kid

Permalink

....Boreal Ridge Box. Offered in soundboard, audience and matrix versions!
Just what the doctor ordered.
No vinyl option though. Boooooo.

user picture

Member for

8 years

In reply to by icecrmcnkd

Permalink

Good show Bluecrow. Finished it up today. Recording is pretty good. Funny how they don't sound as polished as they did in March and April, but that was the story of the Dead. Nice Eyes to open the second set. Crazy fingers is a little clunky. Sweet Morning Dew. Solid show.
Okay, two from the vault for tomorrow it sounds like. 😀

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

my box set email said i'd been randomly selected to try the concept of a build your own box set with a limit of 12 shows!! cherry picked some from Fall '72 and Fall '73, grabbed that Baltimore from March '73, Des Moines from May, the Roosevelt Stadium shows from summer of those years, and finished it off with Bob Fried memorial Boogie. tough narrowing it down. There were a few shows that were off limits like RFK w/ Allmans cause they had special plans for those.