• 8,084 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

Comments

sort by
Recent
Reset
  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    Philly

    No, in fact still no shipping notice for me.

    Who has a pick for us today?

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Re: 73

    Well put slow dog. They are all great shows.. 4/2 has a little pixie dust mixed in with the mix, so it probably gets a little extra hype for that.

    With the number of unreleased '74 shows just beginning to thin out.. 73 is going to come into the foreground eventually. I bet we get a good dose of 73 over the next year.. year and a half.

    Anyone get Philly yet?

  • Slow Dog Noodle
    Joined:
    4-2-73

    Interesting that people gravitate towards 4-2-73. I think the three Dave's picks from spring '73 are a really nice triad. Between them you have pretty much everything they were playing at the time.

    You've got 3-28-73, Dave's Picks 16, affectionately known around these parts as Scooby Doo House. Recorded by Kidd, opening with a Cumberland -> Here Comes Sunshine, all the expected 1st set goodies, and a 43-minute Dark Star into Eyes deep in the second set. This recording doesn't sound as warm to me as Dave's Picks 21 - 4-2-73 at the Garden.

    On this one Rex Jackson gets the credit for recording. Which is interesting since she and Betty were more or less a team during this period weren't they? maybe this accounts for the slightly warmer sound, which is generally attributed to Betty's recordings. This show has a great 1st set China-Rider and a fantastic 17 minute Playing in the Band to close out the 1st set. Set two has a nice slinky Mississippi, and the aforementioned Sunshine -> Jam -> Bobby McGee is unique as far as i know. The jam is a little dissonant for my tastes but no biggie. I believe this is the Eyes where garcia sings "There follows his wagon behind him thats loaded with kale".

    Then comes my favorite of the bunch, Dave's 32. Both Rex and Kidd get the recording credit on this one, and it seems to me to fit right in between the previous two shows sonically. most of the 1st set is typical, but still very well played and the set has a great flow to it. I really dig the chorus like effect that Bobby was using on this tour - notably on Looks Like Rain. This show just seems to go on and on and the 3rd disc is special: He's Gone -> into a nearly 40 minute Truckin-> Dark Star (sans vocals) and then a Sing Me Back Home.

    Just a fantastic show. The only thing this triptych is missing is a big Other One, which hopefully we'l lget soon in another Spring '73 release. This is my absolute favorite time for the band. Pig is gone, but i think that freed them up in a sense, and you can hear it in the playing, which is adventurous. And they have a ton of new material to learn and hone. I get it that some of the 1st sets are repetitive, but I usually just hone in on Bobby or Phil, who are always playing something unexpected. Bring on more '73. I'd love some more fall shows too, which might be a bit more complicated to release becasue of the guest horn players.

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Spring '73 = Better than a Bushel of Tarantulas and Hot Snakes

    Sure do Love Spring '73

    4/2/73 is solid top to bottom without a doubt. Really like when Phil still sung on Half-Step, even (especially?) when his voice is cracking (12/19/73 comes to mind as the standard to measure against), just ain't the same without that little bit of wonderful. Great great stuff here people. No complaints at all. Wave That Flag stuck out as it had me bobbin' along. And the Jam in Eyes that Jerry gets into at 14 minutes is the stuff I keep coming back for again and again and again.

    No secret that PITB is an absolute favorite, possibly my #1 favorite, but def in the top 5. This one is great per usual.
    But I had a flash yesterday on it's life cycle.

    So you know how Dark Star had it's most epic versions from 1969-1970, IMO of course, I mean it's always great, but 1969-1970 those Stars are just universes of greatness, peak versions shall we say. It stays in the rotation, and is played great, but they're not 1969-1970 Stars. I'd say this is when Jerome was most excited about it, which makes all the difference to me.

    Playing In The Band seems to have a similar life cycle in that regard and it's peak is arguably 1972-1973, again it stays in the rotation, and is played great, but they're not 1972-73 Playings (sp?). Anyhooo.. just wanted to say that cause that's what I was thinking about as I drifted through yet another magnificent PITB from '73.

    Plus the coffee's kicking in and I don't really want to do the other stuff I should do today, so yeah I'm procrastinating.

    And if you made it this far, congrats! You are a trouper.

    That 2003 The Dead stuff was ringing my bell yesterday, those set lists had me at Born Cross-Eyed, another top 5 song for me.

    What's on the haps for today?

    PS - I probably wouldn't click on the RAW RAGE link below, that sounds a bit sketchy..
    Spammers does anybody really go for that?

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    RE: Bolo24

    Sent you a PM

    Thanks Bolo!

  • Gollum
    Joined:
    Dave's 21 - 4/2/73

    Yes, I surely do love 4/2/73 Deadvikes. I'm trying to keep up with the daily picks but have been dragging ass a bit this week. I'm still knee deep in Sunday's pick 2/11/70! I always avoided 2/11 because of the special guests. I guess I'm wary of outsiders. That's silly, of course, and it's just a great show. The whole Star-Spanish-Lovelight jam is sweet and meaty like a butt steak.

    The three Spring 73 Dave's Picks are among my very favorites, too! I'd love it if we got some more 73 DaP's- maybe 8/1/73 or 9/11/73? I think those Dark Stars might be underrated because of sound quality (I dunno?).

    I'm enjoying y'alls comments. Some day I'll catch up with you guys...

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    Dave's #21-4/2/73

    Thanks for joining me on these one Jim, GOGD, Vguy and hopefully the rest of you. Gollum, you should be a fan of this show. Oroborous, I know you love this one.

    This release really changed my view of releases. This is by far the most played Dave's Picks for me. Not saying it is the best ever, just the most played. Sound quality is A++. There are zero flaws in the entire release.
    The Deal just kills it, so far my favorite China-Rider. The transition is unreal and I have not heard anything come close. Of course that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Box of Rain! So many highlights. Love the HCS. Why did they retire this song and when did they retire it? Love the WRS prelude into eyes. Did that ever happen again? And such a great finish.

    Yes, Jim, I sure hope we get more 73. Dave's 16 is killer, Scooby Doo, and Dave's 32 at the Spectrum is so good. Love the variety. That He's Gone, Truckin, into the Jam- Dark Star into Sing me back home is super special!

    So let's hope they have more 73 in the Vault. So many good shows.

    Be well and let me know where we are going next.

    No shipping notice here in MN, but that is
    no surprise. I am usually 1 week behind.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    4/2

    Great sound.. It's been a while since I listened to this show. Makes me think we have much more 1973 coming our way the next few years.

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    4.2.73?....

    ....HCS -> Jam -> Bobby McGee. Yeah. I member that.

  • bolo24
    Joined:
    My bad

    I'm afraid today's website glitches were probably my fault. As part of a rather complex NDA with my "employer," I am required to give them advance notice before I post on any website. In my compromised state of mind, I forgot to do so. I'd explain, but it's complicated. And dangerous.

    In the unlikely event that anyone did a screen capture of my previous post, I strongly urge you to reboot your computer, change the locks on your door and stay away from the windows.

    Also, I have the SBD of 9/19/2003 (WAV format) if you need it. Not sure how I would send that digitally - pretty big file.

user picture

Member for

17 years 5 months
Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
user picture

Member for

13 years 4 months

In reply to by Dennis

Permalink

I guess I am the opposite. If I eat enough.. by the time I come down you can list the house as new. I get into details like that..

Stated another way, nobody likes housework, but if you have to do it.. it numbs the pain quite nicely. ...and it had to get done.

Dennis.. at the very least hit up the Let It Grow, and the second set. A fun show that I had never heard before. Also, I will shoot you some pictures tonight when I get back..

user picture

Member for

12 years

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

Nice, but my vote for GREATEST LET IT GROW goes to 12/31/85, the NYE show, that Let it Grow is a monster. Jerry is on fire seems uncontainable. Bobby rhythms are front and center in my copy,,,, Brent's keys are anything but "plinky" to me and the drummers sound like they've taken a blackjack to the skins. GREATEST 4 Sure!!

But 83,,,, great year. A couple of weeks b4 at the Meadowlands (4/16/83) has the greatest LL Rain at about the 7 minute mark Jerry is on fire, I don't think he could squeeze anymore notes into a measure. Bobby vocals are right there. My fave!!!!

On the subject of Let it Grow since you are the canoe man,,,,, sorry kayaking man,,,, I always visualize Let it Grow as a great example of moving from running the rapids (at incredible speeds) and spilling into mirror smooth water. Do you find Let it Grow a great kayak song?

I will definitely check that one out.

Yes.. I have definitely listened to hot LIG's when hitting the harder stuff. Sometimes music helps me get into a groove, into the flow and helps with timing and muscle memory. ..but pick the wrong music and it can work against you. No more scary dark stars on really difficult stuff with consequences.. bad trip music can manifest itself into upside-downness in a hurry. Which is bad.

user picture

Member for

8 years

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

Jim, I am a day late but I am going back to Dave's #35, 4/20/84. This show continues to get better to my ears after each listen, so I am looking forward to it.

Funny how I don't come 'round here no more. I'm a binge drinker personality, I suppose.

JimInMD:
I'm in for 12/31/85. One I've had on cassette for years. Unfortunately Let It Grow did not leave such an indelible mark on my memory... or well, never mind... Definitely looking forward to revisiting it based on Dennis' assessment. Interesting how things can just pass you by sometimes. My main memory of 12/31/85 is Ken Kesey on the FM, or wherever it was that my copy was dubbed from. Man, to me, this show is all about that Kesey intro. Gold.

DeadVikes:
I go back to the 4/20/85 show a lot, too. I'd never heard it until it came up as pick of the day earlier this year, but that was definitely a find for me. Thanks, everyone!

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

that Baltimore show from March '73 is super fantastic cool. release it dave.

that Shakedown opener from 4/26/83 is top shelf.

user picture

Member for

4 years 3 months

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

12/31/85

Thanks for giving me an excuse to break out this old familiar that hasn't had a listen in a while.

Out of the gate like a rocket with Touch ...just a touch too fast.

Everybody takes a deep breath and, somewhat ironically, they take Tons of Steel at a much more sensible pace. Sounds like Brent's playing a DX-7. Bobby seems to give a little off-mic HAA! just before the guitar solo.

CC Rider keeps it on a slow boil until Brent stokes the flames with his B3 during the second round of solos. I love the guy to death, but I've never really been able to buy Bobby as a blues man, despite his apprenticeship to Pig, but this thing is really escalates into a resounding climax. Hot stuff.

Dupree's is a cool song to have back, but they probably should have thought about doing it in a different key 'cause it's totally out of Jerry's vocal range at this point.

Cassidy. Love this tune. Feels more like a Brent lead vocal as Bobby is almost rapping it, while Brent carries the melody. Jam feels good with the drummers going off as usual, but it feels more like a warm up, seeming to end rather quickly.

Brown Eyed Women, man, this is like all time hall-of-fame level piece of songwriting and it's criminal that this isn't well-known outside of Dead circles. I love the "drink down a bottle and you're ready to kill" line, but "the bottle was dusty but the liquor was clean"? just sheer brilliance. One vivid image after another.

Not sure if the rhythm section listened to Bobby's admonitions about getting too busy before Let It Grow. It's all full of 16s and marching rudiments. Phil's takin' it kinda easy, but it's hard to say if he should really be lumped in with the rhythm section. Jer tears into that first solo. You can really hear the trumpet influenced lines he's playing even without the MIDI. The interplay between Jerry and Bobby during the full-on jam is such a web of strings and inversions, they're blending into a two headed, 12 stringed southwestern psychedelic beast. Behind them the percussionists flow like a gurgling stream with Bent's synth weaving in and out of their groove. They just fall into the return melody without ever actually going into full unison, but rising toward it like sunshine into the cool desert air.

Ahhh, the Father Guido Sarducci and Ken Kesey countdown. I don't know how many time's I've heard this, but it still cracks me up to this day. "It's a representation of the U.S.S. Miramack!" "It's an enormous Perry Como!" "It's Rasputin, FDR, and Eric Clapton!" "That's not Eric Clapton." Poor Guido. "I'm outa here" lol.

I love Bobby's little Blues Brothers shtick during Midnight Hour, and he sounds genuinely hurt when Phil later welcomes the home audience when he's just done it twice!

I let Sugaree and Man Smart Woman Smarter go by as I was typing, but basically more good stuff

Ship of Fools seems like a tune that just doesn't get enough plays.

Compact Playin'. They seem to be stacking the set, but at the same time also keeping an eye on the clock for the broadcast, or something. The second of two hot Bobby jams that we just get a taste of. Was that a hint of guitar synth?

Certainly not complaining about this Terrapin getting plenty of room. They nail it. A nice, long drums/space jam follows on.

Bobby's in a talky mood, making rare comment about the ragged Truckin'.

Black Peter has a relatively brisk shuffle going on. I like this one best as a dirge, but they've got a lotta NFA and Throwin' Stones ahead of them, I guess. Nice interplay between Brent and Bobby's vocals. At some points it the two songs become pretty much indistinguishable.

My tape has Mississippi Half Step, and the "We want Phil" "You can't have him" Tom Thumb from 6/29/86 Alpine Valley as filler, and then Box of Rain from RFK 7/7/86 as filler. Talk about a couple of infamous heat wave gigs. These selections reveal nothing of the apparent travails.

"If you're looking to get silly, you came to the right place!" Indeed.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

Gave 12/31/85 a whirl while working yesterday. Unfortunately got a call during LIG, so I’ll need to hit that again.
Hell, really need to do the whole thing again...wasn’t this one on pay for view BITD?

user picture

Member for

4 years 3 months

In reply to by Dennis

Permalink

After actually looking at 12/31/85, my tape is clearly labelled "FM", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's labelled correctly. ;) Bobby (and Phil) shout out to both the radio and TV audience at various times during the show, so it might have been PPV, or just on Bay Area public access maybe. lol.

Anybody up for 5/3/72 next? Did we already already do this last month while I wasn't paying attention?

Just got my Olympia Theater Record Store Day vinyl. Despite this being the Donna tripping under the piano show, I'm gonna get my exercise tonight gettin' up and down to flip the record. smh. lol. What can I say? I'm a vinyl junkie. Didn't even hafta order it from overseas. Wish I could post pics. It's a thing a beauty. The Euro72 box being made of unobtanium, this'll hafta do.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

Start with white walls , in a room not the tires. Eat 500 micrograms of LSD. It really works swell .
It also brings out the 3D.
This is strictly a joke. Micro-dosing is a buzz phrase for a reason.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

like my earth paints - Morrison, Chinle, Kayenta, Moenkopi

user picture

Member for

9 years

In reply to by icecrmcnkd

Permalink

My last several posts on the DaP38 page have been blocked because I tried to post a ‘connection’ (the ‘L’ word has been banned) to the list of returned reels.

Then I come here and there are still posts that can be called that greasy red meat in a can from Hormel (I suspect that the actual word has also been banned).

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

Still need to rehit 12/31/85. Think this is the year my buddy had a PPV party and we brought my big stereo over to his house so had like three or four rooms with TVs and some kind of sound going, with different vibes in different rooms.
Of course we hung out in the serious room, with the big system and full immersion lol, FREAKS!
Or was it 84?

Did hit up DaP 37 again, man I really dig that one. Really need to hear more of that spring tour...
Hit DaP 38 bonus disc on Wednesday. Played/enjoyed the actual disc and didn’t turn it up too much so not as distracted by the distortion noise...

Might try to read today so maybe no tunes : (
Jon Evison, my favorite “newer” author, and a cool dude (have had the pleasure of hanging with him a couple times), has a new book out: Legends of the North Cascades. New books by favorite authors is perhaps as good as new Dead releases!

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

I bought my last tickets for my last Grateful Dead concerts (Salt Lake City , February 1995) from school teachers from Tuba City. Blue Crow, I know all those places you mentioned intimately. And Morrison must mean Red Rocks. Saw the Dead there six times, 1984 and 1985. We’ve probably crossed trails many times.
And I used to think spam was just a canned meat product.
I do love Canned Heat though. Alan (Blind Owl) Wilson, Bob (the Bear) Hite, Larry (the mole) Taylor, Henry Vestine, Harvey Mandel, and “Fito” de la Parra.
They were NOT just another band from L.A.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by Strider 808808

Permalink

Strider - all towns i know and all share a name with a geological formation - some of the towns are type localities for the geology and some are not exactly so it seems. all have clays that can made into paint (or so i believe at least as to Moenkopi - we thought some nice pale yellow clay was from that formation.) And all beautiful as "painted earth" as exposed on the surface here and there in the west. There's the Painted Desert and a whole lot more painted desert. I had forgotten that the Morrison Formation, which locally is exposed just north of here (and big deal in terms of local geology and archaeology, a lithic and clay source) was named for Morrison, CO, all the way over on the front range and aka the home of Red Rocks! Saw the'87 shows there. You landed in the SW earlier than I but no doubt our paths have crossed. almost 25 in UT and work has had me spend a lot of time down in NM the last 10 years.
Fruit and nut update. All the peaches dropped, which was really sad especially since I thought it would be a bumper crop. guessing because we had some unusually cold mornings in mid-May, right at freezing and really late for those temps in spring. Funny thing though - I do have some apricots (just ripening now) and almonds (not quite yet), both of which bloom before peaches and are more susceptible to cold!! So yes some almonds, bro, this year. Ate a few raw the last time, good, and left the rest for my brothers the scrub jays. They loved them. They would pick out the nut, fly it to a nearby russian olive, and peck it open to get the seed. Stay cool down there.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

Two weeks ago the low temperature at dawn was 47 degrees, the high by early afternoon was 100 degrees. We only get 50 degree plus temperature changes in the same day a few days a year.
Something about red sandstone is really pleasing to the eyes. And soul. If you’re ever in Gallup area I designed, engineered and helped build the trail to the top of Pyramid Rock in Red Rock Park. The Garcia guitar metal sculpture “Rosebud” is also a must see.
Link Wray was from the Shawnee Tribe. If we don’t have to read about “whatever’s” OK.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by Strider 808808

Permalink

that's your work? very very cool. hiked it a couple of times (Dec. 2012?) when i was spending part of each week in Gallup monitoring some of the water pipeline construction around town. normally I was 4 on and 3 off and back home but for some schedule reason had a day or 2, or maybe just part of days off and had to still be in Gallup and that's what came up as a nearby place to hike. i remember being surprised by an historic Navajo sweat that was literally just off trail, sort of hiding in plain sight. also wandered some of the foot paths that branched off from the main trail. at some point along the base of the whole thing poking around looking for rock art. there was some cool and unusual historic stuff there tucked back in shadowed rincons. maybe you saw "nice butt cutie"?

those 50 degree temperature swings are always something. lately we haven't been cooling off much, just hot. this morning was first below 70 in at least a week, but a couple weeks ago when this round first started the last truly cool morning I was amazed to see that it was 48 degrees soon to be at or near triple digits, maybe the same day as down there? seems that those big swings often show up in late August / early September as reminder that yes fall is coming.

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by bluecrow

Permalink

that its the solstice got me thinking about a pair of shows that were a whole lot of fun and fell just days after.

6/23/90 and 6/24/90, Autzen Stadium, Eugene. My first shows in the NW. Little Feat opened both days. Huge 2nd sets each day. Peak excellence.

Bluecrow, 6/23/90, okay, sounds like we have a pick for today. Thanks!

Just finishing up Dave's 34. Very relaxing listen to this gem again. Love that Jam out of Seastones, Ship a Fools, Big River and the Black Peter!

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

DV - a gem indeed!! Been spinning Disc 3 in the ride last few days. that Spanish Jam may be my favorite and I love the US Blues that comes flying out of it.

Have fun in Eugene!

Hmmm, sounds good. Coming from ole BC I bet I’ll like it

This is such BULLSHIT, can’t even use an exclamation point?

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by Oroborous

Permalink

Nice smooth, sorta laid back west coaster, nice for a lazy afternoon!

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

The film is so amazing, don’t miss it. Looks like the band and the few people there just couldn’t
“Stay off the Grass” that night. Private parties don’t get any better.

user picture

Member for

13 years 4 months

In reply to by Strider 808808

Permalink

One of my favorite movie nights.. I don't believe the band owns or has possession of the film.. so there is some conflict on ever getting this released. Still, it's there.. big and beautiful. ..and really well recorded and I am guessing they have these master reels in the vault by now....

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

thanks for seconding Doc's rec yesterday. that movie is something else. just a little gig in the back yard.

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months
Permalink

Both film and complete audio were nothing less than extraordinary. “Keep off the grass” must have been countered with “Ignore Alien Orders”. One catchy phrase deserves another.

Yea.. we can't post goofy crap anymore. Like in-depth analysis of everybody's favorite fun show Lancelot Linq, Secret Chimp.

user picture

Member for

9 years

In reply to by JimInMD

Permalink

Not true, there are a bunch on this page.
Must be grandfathered in.

dead net

forum

dead-related-sites

user picture

Member for

14 years 11 months
Permalink

Been on the road and out of touch, so how about a little "Two From The Vault" for tomorrow? Unless it's been done, of course.

Assume everyone has received the box set email by now.

user picture

Member for

4 years 11 months
Permalink

I got it this morning! Wow,what a cool box set, completely unexpected!

user picture

Member for

17 years 4 months

In reply to by billy the kid

Permalink

....Boreal Ridge Box. Offered in soundboard, audience and matrix versions!
Just what the doctor ordered.
No vinyl option though. Boooooo.

user picture

Member for

8 years

In reply to by icecrmcnkd

Permalink

Good show Bluecrow. Finished it up today. Recording is pretty good. Funny how they don't sound as polished as they did in March and April, but that was the story of the Dead. Nice Eyes to open the second set. Crazy fingers is a little clunky. Sweet Morning Dew. Solid show.
Okay, two from the vault for tomorrow it sounds like. 😀

user picture

Member for

9 years 1 month

In reply to by DeadVikes

Permalink

my box set email said i'd been randomly selected to try the concept of a build your own box set with a limit of 12 shows!! cherry picked some from Fall '72 and Fall '73, grabbed that Baltimore from March '73, Des Moines from May, the Roosevelt Stadium shows from summer of those years, and finished it off with Bob Fried memorial Boogie. tough narrowing it down. There were a few shows that were off limits like RFK w/ Allmans cause they had special plans for those.