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    What a setlist!... Made me jealous of those who saw this era live. Great sound… like ‘77 was yesterday. @derekb192 on 10/1/77, YouTube

    Wow! Just as when you think eyes is gonna go to drums out of the bliss comes dancing! One of my all time fave moments! Not just classic 77 but classic ever dead! - @emrysdavies1215 on 10/1/77, YouTube

    ...this show was off the hook from the very get go. The Casey Jones is the best I've heard... beginning a jam that goes through each member going off on an instrumental solo. The end has them jamming so hard you can no longer hear them singing through it. Now you know you're in trouble (The Good Kind) when a show starts like that... Weirtheir on 10/2/77, Dead.net

    Holy hell, the 10/2/77 Betty Board sounds incredible... I just wanted to pay homage to this unreleased gem, which features the lovely, tight playing you'd expect of a 77 show with some of the highest audio quality I've ever heard ... What a treat. u/monsteroftheweek13 on 10/2/77, Reddit

    I told my mother I was going into Portland with friends. I never told her where I went... @jamesmoore3694 on 10/1/77, YouTube

    We know where you've been and we're taking you back with the twice as nice DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 45: PARAMOUNT THEATRE, PORTLAND, OR - 10/1/77 & 10/2/77. Back-to-back complete previously unreleased shows on 4CDs? You betcha! Why? Because we couldn't pick one over the other of these two nights that have been described as "fire," "mind-frying," and "crispy" (bit of a theme here) too many times to count. Witness it for yourself when you dig into the inventive medleys and pristine sound, not to mention the first "Dupree's Diamond Blues" since '69 and the first live "Casey Jones" since '74.

    Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, this release was recorded by Betty Cantor-Jackson (with a boost from Bob Menke, more about that in David's video) and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering. Grab a copy while you can.

    *2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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  • Mr. Ones
    Joined:
    1stShow

    That BAP album came out in ‘83 and is apparently one of the best selling “German”
    rock albums ever. Who knew??
    Silly Wizard was a Scottish “folk” band that played ‘70’s’-mid ‘80’s.
    Looks like you found a neat stash!!

  • daverock
    Joined:
    Nothing But The Blues

    Chuck - you don't have to be an expert guitar player to recognise expertise in others. In fact, sometimes, if you play yourself it can get in the way. I once knew a man who played guitar, who didn't like Muddy Waters because some of his songs only had one chord in them

    I have just been watching the "Nothing But The Blues" film of Eric Clapton playing in 1995. A tour de force of electric blues - my favourite post 1960's music by him. Incredible - if you saw him play around this time you are a lucky man.

  • 1stshow70878
    Joined:
    Happy St. Pat's

    Found a stash of factory recorded tapes and I have no clue where they came from. Maybe somebody gave them away after tapes died. Started with a Yardbirds compilation, then on to Celtic Cross - Richard Searles which couldn't be more suited to today's holiday. (A journey into the heart of the Gaels) But I need some help with two of these others, maybe our Continental and UK posters can tell me what I have here.
    1) BAP - can't even read it, looks German (vun driune noh drusse)?
    2) Silly Wizard - A Glint of Silver
    And the rest I can figure out but why do I have Sergio Mendez, The Pointer Sisters, Men At Work, and a radio recording of W.C. Fields - The Day I Drank a Glass of Water?
    Some of the rest of the stash is my oldest teenage tapes that I played in the '68 Bug on an under-the-dash mounted deck with one of those slide out brackets 'cause you know they want that crappy deck so you better take it inside at night. But the SCORE is about a dozen of the finest jazz recordings I have from the likes of Stanley Clark, Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orch., Freddie Hubbard, Eric Weber, Gary Burton, John Abercrombie, Jack DeJohnette, and two I don't even remember recording: Luis Gasca with Carlos Santana, Joe Henderson, Lenny White, Stanley Clarke, and others. And Clive Stevens with J. Abercrombie, Ralph Towner, Steve Kahn, and Billy Cobham. Wow! A who's who of jazz mostly from the ECM record label. So all of those would have to be from pre-1979 when I had a roomy with a lot of jazz. Looks like I'll be busy for a while. Another benefit of having senior memory loss. (like where did I put all those tapes I used to have)
    Cheers

  • Gratefulhan
    Joined:
    Floyd-Traffic-Dead

    Hi All! So I definitely have not logged as many concert hours as most of of you. Part of that is that along with getting on the bus at the 11th hour, I was also late bloomer when it came to seeing live shows in general. Yet in 1994 I saw Pink Floyd and Traffic who opened for Grateful Dead's summer tour. For Traffic they were opening at my first ever Dead show, so I will admit I didn't focus on them much and don't recall too much. I vaguely remember them jamming on Dr. Mr Fantasy. Several years later I had a now long lost buddy who was very much into Traffic as his #1 band. That really turned my attention to their music and I have managed to pick up all of their live releases (there are not that many). There is an unofficial release from a Santa Monica show in 1972 on CD and DVD. The whole show is on YouTube and if you haven't seen it is worth checking out. Traffic was short lived but they were a very talented band.

    A quick note on Pink Floyd - it was nice to seem then even if it was sans Roger Waters. I have also seen Roger Waters solo act.

    Anyway, I will always look back to 1994 very fondly as I got to see my first Dead show but these other 2 bands as well. Not too shabby for what it was back then.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Traffic

    Saw them at last day of Woodstock 94 along with ABB, Santana, and Jimmy Cliff among others.
    Low Spark, Barelycorn good sheet Mon!
    Dug Higher love a lot and was glad to see him back in the limelight again, when was that…the eighties?

    Saw Dave Mason in a brewpub late eighties. Knew of him but didn’t know him so that was a nice mind melter.
    Had forgotten about that until y’all jogged my memory. Fun night, me and four hot chicks!

    Bluesbreakers, there’s another blast from the past I haven’t listened to in forever…
    Clapton is a great guitarist but seems the more I learn about him, the more he seems like a douche?

    Floyd: one of my first albums I bought in the mid seventies was DSOTM. Didn’t have Animals until recently so don’t “know” it, but like it. Never was a huge fan of the Wall. Like some of the cuts and I’m sure it was cool to see it live but thought it was too “pop”, local radio station played it too much etc. Thought it was lame they didn’t do more shows. As a kid HTF was I gonna go to NY or LA?
    Early stuff is cool, just don’t know it so well as it seems a bit esoteric to me, but that’s probably because I haven’t put the time in?
    Don’t know the newer stuff well either, though do like some of the more spacey and instrumental stuff, like that last album is good drifting and dreaming music.
    Welcome to the Machine and Shine on You Crazy Diamond has always been the shit for moi.

    It must now officially be hockey season as VGUY is representing again!

  • delhead
    Joined:
    Winwood guitar

    Never saw Traffic but did see Steve Winwood at Tower theatre in Phila. He spent most of the show behind the keyboards but stepped out to play guitar on Dear Mr Fantasy and blew the house down. Just excellent.

    I don't post much and have never done a last 5 so I'll break the seal.

    Marcus King - Carolina Confessions
    Gary Clark Jr - Black and Blu
    Dixie Dregs - Dregs of the Earth
    Zappa - Joe's Garage
    GD 11-14-73
    7-1-78 ( i forgot how good this show is)
    Daves 43 and 44

  • Chuck
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    Clapton

    Daverock your comment about Clapton on John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, album is spot on. that really stopped me in my tracks. Eric left the Yardbirds for better things. I have seen Clapton in 7 different Decades and to me he is the best. Just my Opinion and I am not an Expert in Guitar playing.

  • PT Barnum
    Joined:
    Traffic

    Had a sticker that said "caught dead 'n traffic 94. Saw Traffic as headliner in 94, great band, had a guy named Randall Bramblett taking the reigns on Sax and Flute that was previously held by the late, great Chris Wood. Very good to almost perfect. Opened with Pearly Queen and ended with Gimme Some Lovin.
    First time I was fortunate enough to catch Traffic was in 1973 in Orlando, Fl. quite foggy on that one, if my memory serves me right, we dosed pretty heavy that nite.

  • L. Mo.
    Joined:
    You know, Dave, often when…

    You know, Dave, often when retailers can't sell merchandise and have it laying around, they put it on sale to clear it out. Just a thought. Maybe you should discuss it with Rhino.

  • daverock
    Joined:
    Clapton 65-66

    For pure tone, energy and innovation my favourite guitar playing on record by Eric Clapton may be the one he cut with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, referred to as The Beano album. That was a real game changer, taking the blues of the three Kings, Buddy Guy, Otis Rush etc into realms it had never been before. The sound rips out of the speakers like no other white guitarist of the time. The birth of rock, you might say. He got a similar tone on the first Cream album, "Fresh Cream", so I am guessing he used the same guitar and amp as on the Bluesbreakers one. It never appeared again after 1966.

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What a setlist!... Made me jealous of those who saw this era live. Great sound… like ‘77 was yesterday. @derekb192 on 10/1/77, YouTube

Wow! Just as when you think eyes is gonna go to drums out of the bliss comes dancing! One of my all time fave moments! Not just classic 77 but classic ever dead! - @emrysdavies1215 on 10/1/77, YouTube

...this show was off the hook from the very get go. The Casey Jones is the best I've heard... beginning a jam that goes through each member going off on an instrumental solo. The end has them jamming so hard you can no longer hear them singing through it. Now you know you're in trouble (The Good Kind) when a show starts like that... Weirtheir on 10/2/77, Dead.net

Holy hell, the 10/2/77 Betty Board sounds incredible... I just wanted to pay homage to this unreleased gem, which features the lovely, tight playing you'd expect of a 77 show with some of the highest audio quality I've ever heard ... What a treat. u/monsteroftheweek13 on 10/2/77, Reddit

I told my mother I was going into Portland with friends. I never told her where I went... @jamesmoore3694 on 10/1/77, YouTube

We know where you've been and we're taking you back with the twice as nice DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 45: PARAMOUNT THEATRE, PORTLAND, OR - 10/1/77 & 10/2/77. Back-to-back complete previously unreleased shows on 4CDs? You betcha! Why? Because we couldn't pick one over the other of these two nights that have been described as "fire," "mind-frying," and "crispy" (bit of a theme here) too many times to count. Witness it for yourself when you dig into the inventive medleys and pristine sound, not to mention the first "Dupree's Diamond Blues" since '69 and the first live "Casey Jones" since '74.

Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, this release was recorded by Betty Cantor-Jackson (with a boost from Bob Menke, more about that in David's video) and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering. Grab a copy while you can.

*2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

Just received my package with the Portland Shows.
I eventually paid (in France) like 15 bucks, and it ’s my own fault because I would have paid half on line. Wallet is the best place to learn.
Some of you heard this story: In heaven French do the cooking, the policemen are English, German organize everything and Italian do the entertainment.
In hell English do the cooking, the policemen are French, Italian organize everything, German do the entertainment and …Swiss do the shipping.
Anyway collecting dead shows is no more a merry prankster thing.

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Never enough 77.
(whispers)
Never...

Though more of the under-represented years would be nice (if the PB&J are listening).

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Harem Scarem. RGM reissue from 1991, never been on vinyl.
Never heard of them. Any thoughts?
Some connection with this album and a TV show.
Cheers, eh?

RV3's new series of releases "Brent's Picks"?

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March & December, still some good music left.

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10 years 2 months

In reply to by sheik yerbones

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Sheik- I like that line about how the English do the cooking in hell. They could also manage the railways and decide what the drug laws should be.

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The Dutch would be responsible for administration.

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In reply to by billy the kiddd

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Winterland 77 March/December would be a nice haul for sure.
Likewise the remaining Palladium 77 run.
A do-over 5/22 full show release would be swell as well.

Also, an October 74 Winterland box.

Also...

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10/9 and 10/10 would make a nice two-fer. Great auds of both days available on the Archive.

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In reply to by Cousins Of The…

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In the last 15-16 months, 9 Brent shows have been released.
MSG Box
DaP 40, 44

2 more shows with DaP 36.
And the Giants Stadium Box a few years ago.

There is no shortage of Brent releases.

There is a shortage of Bruce releases.

There is a shortage of video releases.

Edit:
The View From The Vault Series gave us some Bruce plus video.

Dave/Rhino,
Time for more video.
Thanks for 6-17-91 on Blu-ray, but don’t stop there.

We need all the video from:
Oct. 74, Oct. 80, European tours, Alpine 89, Tinley Park 90.

Then some selections from 91 starting with Soldier Field.

Thanks in advance.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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without a shipping issue, I’ve had to endure two debacles in a row.

So DaP45 finally arrived today. I have been listening to it all evening.

Remember the scene in the movie Big where all the executives and Josh (Tom Hanks) are meeting to evaluate the merits of the new company toy. At the end of the discussion Josh meekly raises his hand and says, “I don’t get it.”

That’s how I feel about this release.

....I'm not going to mention any names, but how about some 1991-1995?
Guess most of them wouldn't cut the mustard, but I saw plenty of shows then, and I recall some being pretty damn good.
A Vegas Box would be much welcome.
Throw in some dice and playing cards. Limited to seven come eleven of course.
One can hope!
The Sphere is being lit up btw. Test runs.
Edit....what don't you get AJS? Why it was released at all? 🤔
I'm open to a discourse.

Ha...

I have mine but have not had the opportunity to listen. I reserve the right to resurrect my view on 1977 GD upon my listen. 77 shows remind me of my supermodel ex-girlfriend. Practically perfect yet somehow not altogether satisfying.

I'm sure it's absolutely killer. First world problems to be sure.

As you were.

Edit: I really have nothing against '77 GD. When I am in the mood it does magic.

Saw a few really solid shows between 91-95, with 10/19/94 at MSG being one of the best.

Was psyched that they released the Feels Like>Bertha from that show as part of this year’s 30 Daze line up.

The 10/1/94 Boston gig they included in the 30 trips box is also pretty fab.

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In reply to by BedHead77

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Sir James probably summed it up best. It’s oddly unsatisfying.

There’s nothing bad about it, but there’s also nothing overly exciting about it. I thought that even the sound quality was just average.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I'd simply like more '68, '69 and '70.

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In reply to by BedHead77

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A live concert can be enjoyed at the time of being there, but that doesn't mean it would make a satisfying recording.
Actually, that applies to releases from all eras, from all bands. But it was posts from people who enjoyed Dead shows between 91-95, and suggested some of those be released that reminded me of the fact.

It works the other way round, too. Some live shows I have been to I haven't enjoyed - but listening to recordings of them later, I realised they were better than I thought they'd been. Even Jerry commented on this phenomena- I think it's in The Dead Movie he recalls not liking their performance on 2/14/68 and throwing Phil down some stairs as a response. He listened to them later, and found them to be... "crackling with energy" I think was the phrase.

From my vast experience of going to Dead shows, I would say there was hardly any relation between being there and listening to live recordings.

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In reply to by daverock

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"in Hell": this story is very "cliché". I heard it on a richard Thompson Dvd, maybe 2000 years of pop music...
Yesterday I was a bit annoyed cause I spent time on the phone and car to get this package. Things have changed since the elephant administration...4 or 5 years ago? I felt like paying tax for a boxset for two shows.

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In reply to by daverock

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it depends of the mood you are in. But most of gd recordings are great, even the 82 cassettes. (dickP32)
If you listen Dylan 's fragments bootleg series vol 17, you can measure the greatness of gd recordings. I had to listen live cd4 more times to appreciate, but there's nothing like the other studio takes. the Dead has built the best show catalogue of all time.

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Hey rockers.............

My parents used to say, "If you can't say anything good about something, don't say anything at all". That's why I'm here not saying anything about anything...................

Portland? Don't get the buzz about all that, but we got our annual 77 so let's move on. But not on to 91-95. Some February 1973 would hit the spot...........

Heaven is my current wife, hell is my ex-wife, purgatory is alimony.............

Rock on,

Doc
If your parents never had children, chances are you won't either......

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Dead releases are like Texas weather, don't like it, wait, it'll change.

There is something for everyone, but everyone won't like everything.

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RIP Burt Bacharach
What the World needs now is Love as true today as the day he wrote it.
Via Con Dios so many tunes from out yesterdays

Lurking lately, now catching up again after last weekends deep deep freeze here in Vermont. Live about 50 air miles from Mount Washington and was paying close attention to the extreme weather, cause there's new plumbing in my unheated, fortunately below grade marginally insulated basement. It was 21 below zero last Saturday morning with 35 mph gusts that night, very happy to be earth sheltered. But all that pales infinitesimally to the tragic situation in Turkey. So though #45 was here, was not in the mood to begin paying attention until now, have not yet completed a first run. First impression was very good to excellent recording, Donna in a good place, agreed it seems a bit drum forward, seems to be slight emphasis on mid bass such there is slight percussive effect not noticed on most other recordings. This is a very minor observation. Glad to have these shows tidied up, good fun, obviously not peak 77. Easily distracted by other posts, totally agree with Oro that when the Dead went to Macintosh power amps, audio was cleaned up by a factor or at least 10X... love those old Fender tube amps when they are run right but there was tube abuse, those 6L6s, EL84s etc output tubes pushed so hard, ran so hot, their distortion figures must have been above the 1-2% range. Now to video, though the VftV series is here along with other commercially released vids, had never thought to look for the June 21, 1971 Chateau d'Herouville show and was pleased to find it this morning on utu be. House party on the lawn. Bit rough and raw, hand held cameras, for such a location, the audio is good and there's an excellent Hard to Handle, pig in fine form. Worth checking out.

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50 years ago today I wasn't at Maples Pavilion up in Palo Alto. ( I'm sure I was doing something that was just as fun), but my brother was there and he had a blast!. This show would make a great release.

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when Doc and Dennis just handled it all.

Except, what about Jer on Disc One?? He's ripping!

Haven't spun the shows yet. Just dipped toe. More toes tonight.

Arrived this morning. Good to see it in the flesh, as it were, after having looked at it's picture so many times on the board. I have only played the 1st cd, and I did enjoy it - crisp and clear with plenty of energy. It's neither more nor less than I was expecting really. Possibly a bit more. One of the benefits of reading negative reviews is that it lowers the bar a bit, so that when I do get to hear the offending show, it sounds better than I was expecting. When everyone praises a show it sometimes gives it too much to live up to. And when I do eventually get round to listening to one of those, I can then think that it's not as good as everyone says it is.

Curiously the "Promised Land "-"They Love Each Other" openers appear to be soundboard recordings on my old bootleg. The Promised Land suddenly cuts out after a minute, though.

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I have absolutely no idea how May '77 Cornell became so revered. It sounds/plays like the least interesting show in that run. Real good show. No standout.

Just two cents to augment what daverock said.

From what I've heard so far, I'm going to really enjoy the new pick and not worry how it might be assessed by others. As for ranking shows, I don't have the brain cells to spare.

Most likely because it was the first high-quality soundboard recording that was widely available to the masses. It got everybody hooked. Thank you Betty.

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In reply to by Angry Jack Straw

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This part. Exactly.

First tape I ever owned.

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Yes, this time Dave's Picks arrived in Växjö in less than two weeks!

Got it yesterday, on February 8th, and listen right now to the second CD (second set from October 1st). Good music even though shows from 1977 seems to be a little over-done by now.

I would appreciate more bits and pieces from fall 1966 to 1970 and maybe not as a Dave's Picks volume, I would appreciate a release of June 9-10, 1973.
I have a framed poster above my stereo / TV furniture with a photo of Weir, Lesh and Garcia from one of those shows. Bought it in San Francisco in August or September 1986 and have had it on different walls since I got home to Sweden again. The show from June 10 was one of my first tapes I recieved early in 1985 after having a tape traders ad in the last issue of The Golden Road fanzine in 1984.
But I would prefer something much more superior in sound quality by now. :-)

Well, anyway I'm pleased and grateful for a delivery faster than the seven or eight weeks I normally have to wait for a new DP volume! :-)

Micke Östlund,
Växjö, Sweden

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Just for the record, I've only ever had one....................

In regards to Cornell, it was definitely NOT one of the first high quality boards available to the masses. That's a myth, there were lots of other high quality things----including early stuff. That being said, it WAS one of the first high quality 77s to enter wide circulation. But as many more 77s came out---including the shows right before and right after----some of the luster came off Cornell.

I think Cornell is similar to Veneta---it's one of those "you had to be there" types of things. And, like Veneta, good show, but one of the great great overrated Grateful Dead shows.

Just one man's opinion.......

Rock on,

Doc
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed......

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Does anyone else hear a muffled voice, like someone on a phone or behind glass say "He's just talking to 1A, come on back." during Black Peter, right at 6:45? Did it come from the disc, or did my computer pick up a nearby call or something.

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Who cares? It either moves you or it doesn't. If it moves you listen again, if it doesn't then move on to something that does. I like some of these picks more than others, but I want them all. I don't have any list of desired releases, and although I love to see shows that I attended released, they are not necessarily the releases that I go back to most often. Really, I just want shows with good sound quality, songs presented in order, and beyond that it is all subjective. One person's good release is another's ho-hum release, which is pretty clear from this thread. I like to listen to a wide variety of music, with a good chunk of it Dead, but there is so much music to listen to, and my enjoyment depends not a bit on how folks rank it.

Burt Bacharach had a ton of great stuff, including some fantastic stuff covered by Isaac Hayes that really hits the spot - Walk on By from Hot Buttered Soul, The Look of Love from ...To Be Continued, and They Long to Be from the classic Black Moses album, some really classic stuff best played a little loud on a good system. Or maybe a lot loud.

Yes, I've just heard it on "Black Peter" too. I think this show, 10/1, is pretty good overall. Some great guitar playing throughout.
I wonder also if shows like Cornell and Veneta gained a reputation because of strongly expressed and publicised opinions affirming their superiority in earlier times. And those opinions became reinforced by others until they became perceived as fact. John Dwork wrote pages and pages about Veneta in The Taping Compendium, whereas some shows on the European tour were summed up in a few paragraphs. Granted, they may not have had the full tapes for some of the European shows, but the impression given is that Veneta is the greatest show of the year - if not of all time. Maybe articles like that, blow shows..like that...out of all proportion.

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Oh, it's there on the disc. It freaked me out when I first heard it in my car zoned in on the commute to work!

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This release to me felt like an old broke in pair of jeans the first time I listened to it. It feels comfortable and makes me feel good. I've listened to it all four or five times now, minus Let it Grow and Cassidy which I generally just do not care for. Bah! Humbug! How dare he.

I have a Nash T52 Telecaster which arrived, brand new, heavily relic'd. I liken this release to it. The guitar played like butter right out of the box like an old friend I just met. I had never heard this show before, but it's what, 46 years old? Older is usually better with cars, wine, whisky, guitars, Dead shows. Hell, my wife is 50 and I wouldn't even trade her for a 20 year old. ;-p

Just a matter of taste I guess. Love this release and can't wait for the next one.

Peace everyone... well, almost.

\m/

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4 years 3 months

In reply to by LedDed

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Ho
Lee
Phuc

I give up on y'all

I really gotta quit coming to these posting thingies....

Cornell

Great sound and the greatest orgasmic Morning Dew of all time

"You told me goodbye
How was I to know
You didnt mean goodbye
You meant please
Dont let me go"

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17 years 4 months

In reply to by proudfoot

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....I like the '83 Santa Fe shows. Like. A lot. Definitely whatever rated lol.
I'm just here hoping for a Dave's that is numbered under four digits. One day.
And LedDed. I wouldn't trade my 50+ year old wife for a 20 year old either.
She's hotter and smarter anyways.

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Hey, Nineteen
No, we got nothing in common
No, we can't dance together
No, we can't talk at all
Please take me along, when you slide on down

Yngwie Malmsteen - Relentless
The Flaming Lips - At War With The Mystics
GD - 10.2.77 Portland, OR
The Cult - Love
Deep Purple - Deep Purple In Rock
List works imo....

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In reply to by Vguy72

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....Yo La Tengo just dropped a record. Like, forty minutes ago.
Yessssss

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In reply to by proudfoot

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It always strikes me as ludicrous when people think they have nothing in common with others who disagree with them. The commonality lies in the fact that people understand each other, not that they agree. If I told my neighbour that I thought Veneta or Cornell were overrated, she would neither know nor care what I was talking about. If I said the same thing on here - I'm not assuming anyone would care - but at least a lot of people would understand what I was saying. Whether anyone agreed or not would be interesting to me - but not divisive.

Ledded - that Nash tele sounds alright. I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of that.

I am sure the 50 year old wives find it reassuring that they wouldn't be swopped for 20 years olds. What about when they are 60, though? With a 30 year old ?

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