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    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • marye
    Joined:
    Bolo!
    Good to see you.
  • bolo24
    Joined:
    Incognito pick?

    2/23/93 - Mardi Gras with Ornette Coleman. Our group of friends had a float in the parade (kind of a long story). Our "Acme Krewe" was listed at the bottom of the poster for that show.

    As usual, I will categorically deny posting here today.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    You had to be there

    Really,
    Unless you were there, you’ll never fully grasp this show. (Toga 84)
    One of our best GD experiences, right up there with Oxford 88!
    In a word: ELECTRIC! The weather, crowd, vibe, cannot KNOW this show without all that.
    The Dancin in the Streets is pretty much the theme song for this show.
    Started the day before and didn’t stop until the next day.
    (I’ll share some more stories separately)
    Yeah the vocals are ragged on Dancin, but have been on every show opener on this tour so far. Dire Wolf has a little cocaine gargle but it’s not that bad?
    Minglewood is off the fuggin charts! Seriously, (besides Bobs slide solo going on to long and the unfortunate mandatory screaming badger being tortured noise) it’s a monster! And from there things just keeps on growing.
    Wonderland was good, but polite, which makes sense considering national radio coverage in two countries along with very pricey tickets (Seva Benefit).
    City Isle started out ruff, but creeped to where I felt the Drumz onward was good, but,…, but Toga…Insane!
    I’m sure the environment/vibe/energy or what not was so intense the band would have felt it, probably before arrival lol
    And they sure seemed to rise to it: going hard for it and having just as much fun as us, well, almost lol. Not only could you feel it, you could see they were way into it!
    I think the only critique I can make about this show was, too much energy. They were so jacked up on the vibe (on top of everything else; ) that at times I think over enthusiasm led to not always being just exactly perfect. Hard to describe, they generally played well, just not so perfect, if that makes sense?
    I’m onto Blossom currently, the third show we hit that summer, and so far it’s ok, but..kinda laid back after the opening volley of tour ragers.
    Oh, yeah, Merriweather I rehashed and they’re similar: start out ragged, but look out, the rocket lifts off and burns baby burns. Again, hot but excess sometimes perhaps leads to occasional less than perfect moments, but good shows if not RJ. Summer tour 84,
    Onward!

    Can’t imagine those shows on a bike. The rain was what helped make both those shows so fun, but in 85 by the next day we’d had enough, (even before Hershey lol) and we weren’t on bikes! But hey, the adversity usually helped make good shows great!

    Edit: added my story to the 6/24/84 show page if anyones interested.

  • Obeah
    Joined:
    Hershey!

    Doc you were there? I normally don't spend time feeling envious, but this is one of those shows where I sure wish I coulda been there. After all these years it is still a show I'll listen to any day, any time. There's something for everyone: Weir was absolutely on, Healy with his bag of tricks, Phil on mad bombing runs (and that Tom Thumb's!!), drummers on point all night long, Brent so colorful and out in front (and just a demon on the organ), and I run out of superlatives to talk about Garcia's performance this day.

  • dmcvt
    Joined:
    For Jim: Airto's Killer Bees

    Hey Jim, no question, play Airto Moreira and the Gods of Jazz recordings Killer Bees, or Revenge of the Killer Bees. Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Stanley Clarke early fusion, like Weather Report but different, very interesting, under the radar stuff. For treatment, instead of toxic spray, Dr. Bronners peppermint castille in cool water, soak that nest from safe distance with a hose end sprayer on a cold morning . Bees, wasps etc hate peppermint and soap being surfactant, gets under their exoskeletal shells. Once the nest is soaked a time or two, they will abandon.

  • Forensicdoceleven
    Joined:
    I have jumped off a balcony from the second floor.......

    Hey hey hey................

    As a certain Mr Pen used to say, "Baby I ain't no balcony hanger!"..........

    The 1985 SPAC show was the only Dead show I ever attended solo. Beautiful day, rode out on the bike, camped out on the lawn, had some green leafy material, just enjoyed the heck out of the whole experience!

    Early the next morning set out for Hershey. Got soaked on the way, but hey, when you're on a bike and you get soaked, you can't get any wetter. My best friend and my brother---both bikers---were supposed to ride down and met me there and we'd ride back together. LOL they chickened out. It rained, but we kept the blow dry. Another enjoyable and noteworthy experience..........

    Rode back solo the next day, those were the days!

    Rock on!!!

    Doc, paperwork day!
    Youth has no age.....

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    New One For Me

    So why not.. SPAC 84 virgin listen.

    They played the beginning of the City Island show the day before on Today in GD History. I think I have one cursory listen a couple decades ago when I discovered Archive.Org. Jerry's voice is a big haggard on a few songs (thinking Peggy-O for example), which seems to continue on through to SPAC.

    SPAC is one of my many GD regrets. I never made it there and could have. I am particularly fond of the 85 show. Now which one of you was dangling from the balcony that night? never mind.. you'll never admit it, but you know who you are.

    Got a medium size hornets nest in my attic that needs to go before while summer is young. I think my attic fan is shot too. The exterminator is charging too damned much so I am going to brave this adventure tonight. Wish me luck (balanced with how much could it really hurt anway).

    What should I play for the dancing bees 🐝 to give me an edge? A good meltdown space, a rockin' Fire in the attic or Dancing in the Hive?

    Edit: Jerry's a little rough or Dire Wolf but recovered nicely by the time the Candayman came around. Similar to the rough start the night before but improving, apparently, as the night progressed.

    Edit 2: Finished this while cleaning the house. They did pick up steam as the night progressed. Vocals notwithstanding, a high energy Bertha helped pull things together, the highlight for me being the PITB>China Doll. The Other One was typical for the era but good, a soulful Wharf Rat reigned them back to the finish line with a well paired double encore that would a smile on anyone's face as they walked through gates realizing they have no idea where they left their car (or bike).. but who really cares anyway.

    Nice tales from the Road Doc. Creates a little visual and context for the listen.

  • Forensicdoceleven
    Joined:
    In this bright future you can't forget your past.....

    Morning rockers!!!

    Can it really be 40 years ago that we stood in the rain at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center and enjoyed a fun Dead show, rain and all?!! Got drenched on the motorcycle ride down from Canada, but we kept our doses dry. Those were the days!!!

    Decent soundboards are out there, worth a listen.......

    We should not look back unless it is to derive useful lessons from past errors, and for the purpose of profiting by dearly bought experience.....

    Rock on,

    Doc
    One must always maintain one's connection to the past and yet ceaselessly pull away from it.......

  • uncle_tripel
    Joined:
    City Island...

    ...yeah, 2 hour drive to harrisburg listening to the newly taped FM broadcast of WONDERLAND of CANADA show and ready for a great afternoon in the sun, several friends (3 car loads) would plan to meet, one car "alabama toot-away", one car packed with coolers of cold beer, another car "up in smoke". walking through the city enroute to the bridge to take us into the middle of the river, hey look over there at that guy passed out under the tree, damn he sure does look like our friend Chumpweed...keep walking, he would never miss Garcia by over indulging in the early afternoon. Next day, everyone safely back in town and meeting up at a friend's apartment to rap about the show...hey Chumpweed, what did you think of the show? ah, man I passed out under a tree and missed the whole show.....

    I remember most the opener: toot-away, a fun tmns to end 1st set, eyes, black peter, gdtrfb; and yeah it was a speedy GOGD event, and most unique venue to have seen the band.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    If We'd Have Timed This Better

    They might have been talking about worm farming on the last GD Bulletin

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Na, hanging in there but stuck in a painful wait and see endless loop. PT helped a little, but it's torn. Now I am jumping though the hoops and eating valuable time and deductible coinage fighting my way though the system. It happened mid-summer and I'm not that close to getting the MRI that will tell the world that in fact, one of the tendons in my rotator cuff is torn. Something I have known since mid-July. A part of my thinks they drag things out to get double the deductible offset than they would if they could treat the damned thing in a single year.

Is this what Deep Elem Blues is about? Oh sweet mama, daddy's got those Deduct Elem(ble) Blues? Nevermind, even my terrible sense of humor isn't working.

Gives me a little more time to keep up with you folks here though.

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Plastic surgeon?
Maybe I still look young since I hadn’t totally sold my soul to the man yet and started 16 years of hard prison time : (

Yep, we need Jim to get that arm working again, so he can get his paddle on, so he’ll be happy, and thus come here and make us all happy with his good vibes! ; ) JK, know how much it means to you so hoping for a full recovery!

Hit 2/10&11/89 today, and might go for a DHB and hit the last night on the 12th..
Besides some of the spring tour, I’m not familiar with first half of 89.
These were ok, feel like they got better as they go/early part of year etc?
Gonna try to hit 89 hard next year…

FALL 89: why are those awesome multitracks just rotting in the vault FFS…
I’d say a tasty box, and look Dave, I already did the work!

10/9&10/89: released

10/11&12/89: ok, but since something would need to be cut, I’d choose these…
*10/14/89 is worthy and prolly best of Jersey sans 10/16…
10/15/89: runner up, depending on box size, or good DaP
10/16/89: released. Ridiculously under rated!

10/18/89: only tour Shakedown. Runner up depending on size, or would be good DaP
*10/19/89: definitely needs to come out!
*10/20/89; ditto, might even be better? Cali Quake!

10/22/89: runner up depending…?
*10/23/89: Attics and Cali Quake…

*10/25/89; not the best show of tour, but should get in for inclusion purposes if nothing else?
10/26/89: released

9/29;89 could be a DaP…since the above make a good size box, think spring 90 etc…

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Hope you get that worked out Jim. Not fun.

Would love to see some more fall 89 released. However, the way things have been going, I think Dave is on a 169 year plan.
And don't forget those July Alpine shows.

So much to release and time is ticking away.

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10/20/83 yesterday, sorta while tunneling in the garage
4/14/70 and soon 5/2/70. All this 70 talk….
Ok, back to the gare ige …
why do we keep so much crap?

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Still think #48 is an odd pick. I listen to 71 shows fairly often. Pretty sure the Pauly Pavilion show was part of ABCD returned reels. The Port Chester shows are probably my favorite shows of the year, but there are clearly other great shows. That November Austin show is fantastic.

Heard someone mention on another thread that they didn't really like Dave's #21? We all have different tastes, that is for sure, but this is one of my favorite releases they have put out. This really reinvigorated my desire to listen to more Dead. I mean the Rex recording is phenomenal. The Boston Garden in April 73 must have been quite the scene.

Have it going now in fact and the China Rider is one of the best of 73, to my ears.

Stay well out there.

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Don’t think so DV?
I just checked the ABCD list and didn’t see it?
Wonder if Big Red was pestering him to release it?
I mean, hey, if any of us had inside access, would we not petition Dave?

I agree though DV, bit of a head scratcher. Yeah it’s a good show, but there’s some real obvious ones that most folks would consider better…but I’ve spewed my picky DH pontificating negativity enough and will I’m sure, get a few good listens out of it before it joins the ever increasing good, but not go too club.
Let’s hope he’s just jerking our chain about “we don’t save things” and is just trying to evenly dole out the goods on the 169 year plan?
I dig the Capitals, but that’s almost like a different year compared to after KG was hired, so hard for me to compare…

How’d you guys like that 84? Maine always seems to be one of “those” places.
Heard this one not too long ago, and will definitely hit it next year!

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Follow my sister's plan.

If you haven't looked at or touched in a year,,,, GARBARGE!

I'll admit she's a hardass. Her first born went away to college, she trashed him.

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Mornin', rockers!!!

Hey, another memorable anniversary. Carrier Dome. 1984. Single drop of liquid 25. Pretty solid and enjoyable show........

Angry Jack Straw, you out there?????

Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities...........

Rock on!!!

Doc
The aim of art is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance....

Which list do you have OB? There are a few out there and then the secret lists. Kind of like being on double secret probation.

The show from 10/12/1984 is a good show for the time period. Don't need love didn't make it too long on the circuit. Definitely sounds like an eighties tune.

Carrier Dome. I have listened to this show in the past, but right now can't recall much of it except maybe a rocking Shakedown.

Just finishing up Dave's 21 this morning. My god, I love this show.

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2-1-78 on new JOTW.
They were listening in on us again.
Cheers

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Fate Music: the new alphabet

I think brother Conekid hooked us up with this?

Carrier Dome: again, I’m saving 84 for next year, but have heard 84 the most outta the three.
Aaa red sweethearts, yep, good sheet Mon! Perhaps we met at the NYS rest area ; )
Looking forward to hitting 10/22/83 this WE for my personal 40th and since I’ve been flogging around in fall 83 lately.
Hit 10/20/83 again today, along with 11/1/73. Oh, rollin the awesome Dylan 30th anniversary concert again. Forgot how great this is if your not familiar! Good FAC tunes…

Ha! I hit the other uptown’s last week but forgot to post! Same as this February 89s: seemed to get a little better every night? Or maybe I’m getting mixed up? Enjoyed, I know these are Bluecrow gold. I dug em awight, but still think April sets the par for 78 (no offense of course to BC or 1stshow etc)

Garage/garbage: yeah Dennis my BFF taught me that one. He’d hit the basement once a year and liberally use the one year rule lol. Funny coming from you though ; ) mister biggest collection in the world guy lol
My problem is I have access to too much hardly used gear that I think “well, this is too good to recycle since maybe someday I might have a use for this “ mhhmmm, so far my battin a average is on the side of shut up and pitch it lol.
Happy Fri yay amigos!

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If anyone does check out these fine shows, you’ll definitely want to go SB!
The shows were fun as always, but the place sounded like shite mate.
It’s a testament to the awesome GD/Ultra sound crew they got it as good as they did, but still, that place sucked!
But if you go SB all three of the shows are good for their respective years…

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In reply to by Oroborous

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jgmf.blogspot
-dot-
com/2020/09/
the-new-alphabet-abcd-gd

Reassemble that and replace -dot- with .

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Thanks Cone Kid.

That's not nearly enough. I wonder if they ever got the ahole guy to cooperate?

Thinking about this a bit. Why would they publish or leak a complete list of what was returned? The element of surprise and hype sells. There is more than a marginal chance that as time goes on, more of Betty's tapes materialize. Could be wishful thinking, but why publish or release a list if you were them?

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Just heard of the passing of jazz great Carla Bley. Nice to see that list, though it reminds me of how under represented 1968 is for "official" releases... Banging the primal drum again, understood questions remain, whats in the vault. Releasing partial lists teases keeps the buzz going. Will there be a primal box? The archive shows roughly thirty plus shows across 1968, iirc, there's only abut five shows released commercially. Cold rain and snow here, could be the first firing up of the wood stove this season. Trying to find a Matt Gaetz mask for Halloween.

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This jotw is lovely! (deleted various things to see if I could get this to post)

Oro I love your spade work prepping the way for Cap'n Lemieux and a Fall 1989 box. Such an exciting time (redacted various things to see if I can get this to post). I got my hands on a good copy of 10/9 set II by that Thanksgiving, and by year's end my friends were passing around complete copies of some of the Brendan Byrne shows including 10/16. But your rundown of other contemporaneous shows makes me realize there are quite a few I've simply never heard.

As to cleaning house, I'm with Dennis. If you haven't touched it in a year, give strong consideration to placing it into the garbage. When we moved nearly 2 years ago, we'd been in the same house for 16 years. The "aha!" moment for me was when I took down a box from a little-used closet shelf, and the ceiling above it caved in. Obviously that says more about the landlord not doing preventative maintenance than anything else (and that's a big reason we finally moved) but it's a lesson/metaphor: if you have a box that is holding up a ceiling, you obviously don't need its contents...

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Yes, I agree Jim, I don't think they will ever release an official list of what was returned from the transaction or what they even have in the vault. Keep them guessing.

Not sure if Rhino still needs to credit ABCD with assistance on releases as Kezar was on the list of returned reels but not mentioned in the HCS Box (as far as I remember).

Maybe we will get some #49 news this week.

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In reply to by Obeah

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Which box set was holding up your ceiling?

Further proof that Europe 72, Fillmore West 69 and 30 trips are foundational items we simply cannot live without.

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Jim LOL let's just say the shipping box for the Pacific Northwest box set was on the same shelf

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In this week's Taper's.
An audience tape.
Not sure I've ever seen them do that.
Cheers

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Great to see you again Bolo. Still a core group of crazies here. See what you started??!!

1stShow - not sure what to make of an audience source for 1/31/78 in the taper section except to highlight a gap in the SBD. Do know the Let It Grow to finish Set I rips. Now onto the Scarlet.

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That explains Putin's heart attack.

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....I've been ignoring this thread recently. Got put my game face on it seems.
Y'all been active. Love to see it.
And Putin did have one it seems. So close.
Keller effin Williams! Wow.

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57 years ago today, I moved with my family from Houston to the San Francisco Bay Area. Talk about culture shock!

Less than 3 months later, my barely 12 year-old self was accidentally exposed to the Grateful Dead for the first time when I was dropped off in Golden Gate Park with new friends. It happened to be the day of the Human Be-In. I had no idea what was going on, I just knew that the world was not as I had known it - and I liked it!

Been in a glorious purple haze ever since.

Since last update, In no particular order (that would require a functioning memory ; )
Hit and enjoyed my 40th anniversary double shot of 10/22/83.
6/25/78 was another big show that was definitely played to the situation/gig (both big and loud)
5/2/70:
11/17/71. Good but not RJ
5/9/78 ok show, but aud only
3/10&12/85: 1st time. Good but not great…
12/6/73 bonus disc. The MJ “beat it” Dark Star!
9/22/93: whoa, who knew 93 could be this good?

Ok, I think that’s all?

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Yes sir, I’m all about the nuts, bolts and stats. I’ve done all of Summer 85, Fall 89, fall 91, E72, Spring 83 (and whatever I forgot) in order, without any other Dead intermixed. I feel it’s the only way to fully deepdive a tour.
I then carefully consider set lists repeats etc and attempt to construct the best possible box from the tour.
So basically, I’ve done at least half the work for ole David, but for some reason he never seems to reach out ? ; )

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You have been busy OB. 6/25/78, there is another one I can't recall at the moment if I have ever listened to that one. Might have to check it out.
Currently, just about to finish Dick's 31 and I kind of feel like keeping that 74 vibe going. I mean, come on, it is 74. Where to next?

Way too cold here in MN already. Trying to squeeze in my last round this afternoon before the courses close and then the World Series tonight.
Stay well out there.

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Been in 1974 mode lately thanks to GD Hour selections and this fits right in, thanks for the suggestion DV. Just starting and you know it's going to be good when they start with a Playin'. And this one is ripping. Great jazzy feel so far. Sure beats raking leaves!
Cheers

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Doing the anniversary listen.

139303.cm.miller

Would love a ‘91 Box.

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Finishing up the 3rd and 4th CD this morning.
Our first snow today, didn't stick to roads.
For a mix tape release (ala RT series) this was laid out like a couple of shows. Probably wouldn't have even known if I was just casually listening and didn't look it up. And fine shows they were! Love the jazzy, tight nature of 1974. Everyone really on the same wavelength here. Polished even more than '73 but not the Just Exactly Perfect (read slow) pace of the early post hiatus era. 8-4 and 8-5 both so good, what a pair of shows that would have been to see. I have tapes of the 8-6 used as filler here and it has also been a favorite all these years (Playin> Scarlet> Playin'). Highlight may be the WRS on 8-4 and the seamless transitions like the one between that WRS and Wharf Rat. Not only are these shows firing on all cylinders, the engine has been modified for increased horsepower it seems.
Going with DRs pick over on the 48 thread of the 10-29-77 anniversary DaP 33 for a lazy Sunday snow day.
Cheers

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Too early for snow for me, but, it is that time of year already.

Agree Firstshow and really enjoy the Jams out of songs from this time period. Early Peggy O always satisfies. After 31, went right to RT2.3 . All three CDs are great, again really dig the Jam out of Truckin, into Wharf Rat, GDTRFB and Sugar Mag.
Hit the bonus disc from Dave's #2 at the Capitol Center.
Might have to que up 9/18/74 next from the 30 Trips box next.

Hope you all receive your #48 soon. I don't have a shipping notice yet.

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Our first snow comes tomorrow, I seriously doubt if it will stick. I might have to pull a good release that opens with Cold Rain and Snow.

I love DiP 31, especially when it first came out. Disc 1 is worth the price of admission alone, but all four discs are full of magic.

I've been dancing around 10/21/83, 10/14/83, 10/8/89 and 3/28/73 (Worcester 30 Trips, Hartford DiP6, Formerly Warlocks Hampton, Springfield DaP16), mostly OB suggestions. It had been forever since I listened to the 83 and 89 shows, and Springfield.. well, do we really need a reason to put that one on.

Went to a real freaky Halloween party Saturday night dressed as the sorcerer from Fantasia, got fungaldosed which was nice. MRI tomorrow.. I get to find out if I will recover or get a shiny new six-million-dollar bionic arm instead. I still remember that sound effect Steve Austin used when he went into bionic mode. You'd think we would have that technology figured out by now..

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Someone gave Jerry a pot brownie in Sweden 10-13-1990

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Doing some Halloween Radio City from nineteen eighty.
Ten twenty nine seventy seven was OK.
Distracted listen or just too many wahoo shows lately to compare fairly.
Best wishes on the MRI Jim.
Cheers

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Been having a high time here lately, sort of.. went to a wickedly wild Halloween gala over the weekend. The first psychedelic Halloween event I have been to since college (actually three parties Sat, but the fun one was last). Great bluegrass being played almost everywhere you went. Two freakishly fun parties tonight as well, all within a couple blocks from home so no driving, etc., work tomorrow will be light.

My MRI today did not go as I had hoped.. I thought I had a partial tear in one tendon in my rotator cuff (Supraspinatus), something where the repair is not the biggest of deals. Turns out two of the four tendons in my left arm rotator cuff are not only completely severed, but the tendons have recessed far away from where they need to be re-attached making the repair more difficult. Much worse than anticipated which sort of blows, but that's life.

We could have us a high time, living the good life....
....Wel-eelll I know.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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I'm in pain just reading that. That and docs HO are bummers. Glad to see you keeping your head up.

Maybe our luck will turn around sometime here soon.

Comes a Time for 30 DOTD

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Sorry to hear about that news Jim. Hope they will be able to find a solution for you. Doesn't sound like PT will get you there.

Oh and I almost forgot, Hey Now!

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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It appears anything beyond one syllable words get hey nowed.

Ill try again later

We got our first snow here today, this show opens with a decent Cold Rain and Snow. Jerry was married backstage in-between sets. Great third set, good recording, good show. Well I Married Me a Wife, She's Been Trouble All My Life.

Thanks for the positive thoughts. I've been very fortunate, I was due. Dropped four flights and cracked my spine..

Edit: Goes to show, the seventeenth try's a charm. Right back at you crapatcha and heynow.

I think that term as a form of greeting may have been ruined for all time now. Maybe someone should tip Dave off before his next lecture.

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7 years 10 months

In reply to by daverock

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Received an Email this morning from this site that stated Hey There!

I received my #48 last night so will be diving in and then I will hit that 82 New Year's show. Thanks Jim.

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13 years 2 months

In reply to by DeadVikes

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I just got Hey There'd

These forms look different. narrower, you can fit less on a screen.