Pick of the Day, with Discussion

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April 6, 2020 - 9:47am

8,084 replies

marye

Joined:
May 26, 2007

Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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April 20, 2022 - 5:53am

#2351

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

More on GD/Amps/US Navy

I was close... if you google it you will get an answer pretty quick. Here is a quick quote from my first google land.

Rosie McGee was cracking up at her desk when Dennis "Wiz" Leonard walked in from lunch.

"What's the story?" Wiz asked McGee, then a receptionist and bookkeeper at Alembic, a California-based custom electric guitar, bass, and pre-amp company where Wiz worked as an audio engineer.

"Well, the Department of Defense just called me," she told him. "They were asking if we could defer the purchase of our next four 3500s, so they could get four."

Those amps were in high demand at Alembic. The 3500s, in particular, would be used in the Wall of Sound's vocal array tweeters, drum tweeters, and for Jerry Garcia's guitars. But was it just Alembic buying them up? A rumor was going around—a "urban myth," Wiz told me—that the US military was using Mac 3500s for sonar, specifically to listen for Soviet submarines.
April 20, 2022 - 5:40am

#2352

Gary Farseer

Joined:
August 1, 2015

Passing the Test

Isn't the goal here to be lighthearted? I try my best to not let the craziness of the world/media not get to me here? Isn't the goal here to be a kind prankster? They ask, "Are you kind?" Most of the flamers I look like as children, either actual age or not. Many are so deep in social media and issues that result thereof, they cannot see what it is doing to them. They are being handled, manipulated, and unwittingly abused by the profiteers. I try to stay away.

Jim, had no idea of the McIntosh amp issues. Thanks for that piece of info. As much as I love the music, it is just how they were. So real and fun which someone wrote, "creating their own iconography." The richness of their traditions and internal musical dialog that we love is an unending source of comfort as they lived it everyday for 30 years. I wish I had a shot at hearing even 50% of their music, but as I have written before, my OCD makes me wear out a great jam over and over instead of looking for the next one. Need to work on that for sure.

So Jim and Oro and many others, thanks for passing the test.

G
April 19, 2022 - 6:50pm

#2353

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

GFar

You are kind soul.. I appreciate all you provide here. Same goes to Oro. I think it would take a face to face to catch me up on all the technology (old or new) that the two of you bring for me to truly understand. As for old.. and I am sure you both know.. in either late 73 or early 74 (I think 73).. the GD got into a scuffle with DOD over equipment they were ordering that was desperately needed for national security. Apparently, the Macintosh amps they were buying in unprecedented numbers were needed both in general and more specifically by special, top secret subs that needed the clean sound and amplification to either detect enemy interference or better hear and make stealth the noise they were making. So they called the GD and tried to work out a way to either stall, postpone or barter a purchasing arrangement that would not jeopardize national security.

I think this is well known, and I apologize in advance for going on memory and surely confusing some of the information listed above as fact. ..but what is written is pretty close, if someone can clarify and correct it would not offend me in the least.

Hope I didn't write anything that was incorrect or in any way interpreted as insulting or offensive.

As for chainsaws and sawzaws to clear way for our living room WOS.. what could possibly be more fun.
April 19, 2022 - 6:05pm

#2354

Gary Farseer

Joined:
August 1, 2015

Sawzaw

Ah the sounds of my earliest fun dentist. "You dont need no gas!"

All my stereo stuff is old, always fussy. Running all old Yamaha into JBL (plus svs). Trying to get stuff cleaned and parts replaced. When it is on, it is quite the stereo indeed. I have an old yamaha eq that I hooked up when Dave's first show was released. Goes into Pre amp, then to a yamaha mx-830. The MX-830 is powering 4 jbl g300's and 2 jbl LX 600's. Running 6 speakers means the amp is running at 550 watts at 2 ohms. It cooks. The speakers all have same tweeters and mid ranges. The 300s run 8" woofers and the 600s have 10 inch woofers. It is old but as you say "in budget." Smile.

edit:
Then the svs has a 550 watt continous, 850 watt peak sledge. The svs I picked up a few years back for $399. I had to have a sub with an internal crossover. So out of preamp to svs (rca cables), then back into the preamp, then to amp. Having old yamaha means older connection points. Modern amps control the crossover themself and pump sub out already crossed over. I happen to run my internal sub amp at a cutoff of 82 hz. George Lucas uses 80 hz crossover in his THX sound systems. So I am slightly above that. I did some sampling of the room using the preamp features.

G
April 19, 2022 - 3:31pm

#2355

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

Do you have any '74 Dijon?

Neanderthal's use chain saws.. a sophisticated audiophile attacks their living rooms delicately with a sawzaw.

I'm totally jealous.. I am blasting with my 20 year old Denon, similar age speakers with no intents on upgrading anytime soon. Budgets be budgets..
April 19, 2022 - 1:11pm

#2356

Gary Farseer

Joined:
August 1, 2015

Yeah

Can you imagine writing the real equipment book? With the constant upgrading of the system, that book would be multiple enormous volumes. Hope the Meyers have logged a lot of their research.

No 18's here. Of course not needed.

Back last year, Oro, you asked if I was running multiple subs. I am not. I have a 12" SVS Systems sub with built in Sledge D amp. It is like the rabbit, it is a thumper. Goes down to 13 or 15hz, so below the 20hz of human hearing. That is, if all memories about frequency response are still good. Starting to get the old enough to question my own thoughts at times.

I am still hoping for the day when we can listen to WoS through a system that takes us to the "Fare the Well" P.A.. Would have to be software based, but I look at it like 4K upcoding an HDTV signal.

Wow, FTW PA is now 7 years ago. Bet the Meyers' have gone way beyond that. I almost applied for a job at Meyer 7 years ago. Was in my career field. POTHead.

That 2015 system had multiple flying 18's. It also had a load balancing system. This was done by having 2 systems, intake and outake. That is, they had 100 microphones throughout the stadium to push into the analytics software. Of course, the output systems was not connected except thru analytics, to the input system to avoid feedback. Brilliant. The analytic input system could then be used to balance the PA by section of the of the stadium.

Sorry for interruption but I wanted find the article on pro sound web about 2015 FTW PA.

I did actually find it, but not by searching pro sound web, but by searching internet at large and it found it on the pro sound web site, even though pro sound web could not find it in its own search.

Let me know, maybe I can send lynk thru PM here, not sure if they cut that off.

Any way need to do a little work after lunch. I mean a little work.

G
April 19, 2022 - 12:24pm

#2357

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

Ha

That’s what chain saws are for!

Gary, I think besides trying to keep up with Garcia, Phil was using that big system on stage to help fill in those near field areas (up front etc) we were discussing, the areas that didn’t get proper coverage from the PA?
What some refer to as the Phil Zone, though to me that’s was where both his stage sound and the PA sound merged and acoustically coupled.
But yeah, My spine tingles and can still feel rather than hear those sub frequencies in my DNA. (By sub I mean below the threshold of hearing, not a subwoofer). Those Meyers 18”s in the PA were ridiculous in the right spot, in the right venue etc.
Plus, it’s the Grateful Fucking Dead so why not go big!

PS, that Grateful Dead gear book is great, though a little dialed down.
April 19, 2022 - 12:07pm

#2358

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

I want what Phil's having...

Home version. 18"'s and 4"'s. If I move some things around, they should fit.
April 19, 2022 - 11:21am

#2359

Gary Farseer

Joined:
August 1, 2015

Oro

thanks for the write-up, input. Need a little time to read again and ponder. Think again we are speaking the same language but as 90% of communication is non verbal, some times the written language let's us down.

It seems I have the dead's equipment book, need to track that down. Not necessarily for this discussion but just to find it again...

Should have figured Phil would use Meyer systems. Using 18's onstage, wow!

Hope all well your way!

G
April 19, 2022 - 10:10am

#2360

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

Phil’s Rig

As of late 82 or early 83 Phil was using 4 Meyers cabinets: (4 -18”, 4 -15”), 2 per cabinet powered by custom PIE amps, until they started not using speakers on stage in 92. (Which I didn’t like).

Not sure I get all what your saying? I agree that Soundboards do not sound natural for many reasons.
Perhaps your referring to the phenomena of Microphones not having frequency response to accurately record bass waves combing sub sonic frequencies at those kind of SPL levels?
Mic location can also make a big difference and was partly why Dan started the tapers section. Unless you have the right knowledge and equipment chances are a recording made too close will mot sound good.
Plus you have the physics: the lower the frequency, the longer the sound wave. If your too close you’ll not hear the fully formed bass note etc.
In fact if your too close much of the PA sound will blow right by you. You’ll also not properly experience stereo imaging. That’s why usually, the sound board or just before it was THE place to be. It was a trade off going up front: yeah you were up close and could see and hear their stage sound, but the PA mix was so above and beyond you that you missed a lot of info. Eventually they added little Meyers boxes, usually sitting on the front of the stage to add some vocals etc for those up close.
Nothing comes for free! Personally, like Bear, I didn’t like the stereo set up because of this. Unless you were in the right spot, you missed a lot of info, especially if you were sitting on the side!
This was the main reason Reserved seating sucked: nobody could sit where they wanted so if you were a sound nut like us, you often had to endure less than perfect sound/mixes.

John Perry Barlow

John Perry Barlow

Forums

Currently Listening To...

Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

1.3 Rollin

Yo BC!

Just getting into 2/89 DV. Solid, enjoyable, maybe not RJ though..

Early 79 highlights:
All pretty good, unfortunately many Auds only, but some of those were perhaps better than an SB, and some of the SBs aren’t so hot..
Started out on fire but you can hear slight cracks entering the vibe by the end of some of these shows. Burnout and tension perhaps?
Really liked the MSG shows especially the eighth. Of course the 10th.
I can see why Dave Likes the 15, but not sure I found it best of tour.
But man that sequence from playing onward, phew, hell the whole second is great! Next 2 almost as good, then of course the unusual 20, and 21.
A brief speed bump perhaps but they solider on nicely.
By 2/3 their nicely back in step and Dane, still think if there’s tapes it would fit nicely with the rest of the Danes: Great Dane Box! Sorta status quo for the next few, nice Kansas shows, then a good, but not RJ big finale n the 17.
Good show, but enough moments of mishap that I felt it wasn’t RJ.
Too bad there’s no tapes as I could see a few releases here.
Something from MSG, the 10 with DS filler from the 20th, the 15 off of Dave’s list, Dane, somewhere, and BTK 2/17 - 422 idea!

Ok, I’ll get 2 more 89 this week, unless I get 49…

2/4/79

friends had a ticket for me but I chose poorly and didn't make the drive from MN. could've heard a Godchaux era Shakedown and an early Iko. no boards of this but there is of set one night before in Indy with that mid set China > Rider. And don't miss that indy Scarlet > Fire! damn i wish Betty was running reels for these. listening to two four set two now. been awhile since i heard indy so its on the list. that Scarlet guitar break is fire

Wish Betty Was Running Reels

The understatement of the year.

I think much of the late generation shows suffer in comparison to the shows that were properly recorded. True, vocals and harmonies has declined but the band played on.

They are playing 7 7 78 today on Sirius XM as I write this. Boy that Peggy-O was something. What a great run to see as your first show(s)

I let a tiny fart out in the Dave's Picks 49 thread. Music posts don't seem to go through but the test one I made later did. Unfortunately I used up all my patience trying to get the good one through.

that July 78 box

is so very freaking fantastic. a couple weeks ago i revisited omaha 7-5 a k a the waterfall show and it was mind blown - what a screamer

seven seven seven eight

one of my first boots was the superb front of board Wagner audience for that first Red Rocks show Set I and Set II through Scarlet transition. pretty much every song in that first set along with that Cold Rain BIODTL and Scarlet is a favorite version. burned in my brain. its all exactly perfect.

BLUECROW

didn't make the drive. I can empathize with you! as I DID THE SAME THING for englishtown (only 35 mile drive);
my fatal error, major gaffe, momentary lapse of reason, bonehead move, dumbest thing to do; AND yes that decision all these years later still makes me want to laugh out loud & cry all at the same time, so everyone please KICK ME AGAIN!!!

peace all!
uncle_tripel

6/23/74

Needed a change of pace after listening to the fantastic 4/27/85.

6/23/74, Dave's #34. Love this one. Hope you can join me.

Oh and bring on that 2024 box announcement from .......74

Ain't Nothin' Shakin'

So I might just as well since I'm waiting on 49. I think I'll start with the bonus disc.
Cheers

6/23/74

Deadvikes - I'd willingly join you, but I played the 1st cd of 5/17/74 this morning, so I'm a bit out of synch. Incredible time for the Dead - amen to a 1974 box.

Ha!

I was thinking February 74 after first amazing listen to 49!
But 6/23 will work. Then, intermission, then 49 again, then perhaps Greensboro 89 where I left off, then later next week digest February 74 for a few days?

6/23/74 Miami

DeadVikes good call. Have to say i probably listen to the bonus disc to this and the 6/16 &18 Roadtrips a lot... Hope you guys are all doing well!!

"wait a minute..." <- in my best pigpen voice

so Deadvikes I just pulled out my copy of 6/23/74 at your suggestion. I have criminally underplayed this one. I call myself a '74 fan too so idk what my trip has been but anyway I grab the liner notes and unfold that thing and read the story of the photos and then I see the credit... to Forensicdoceleven ?!?! ?!

edit: I know this has surely been discussed already. I seem to have poor luck using the search function on this site, but let me see if I can find old posts, i don't mean to hijack this thread. I just felt a strong need to say "wait a minute!"

#34

Holy shit Bob t! Good to hear from you. It has been a long time. Hope all is well.

Obeah, yes, the Doc was involved with getting Dave the photos, I will let him give you the story. I have no idea how to search comments on this site either. I listened to this a lot when it first came out but haven't listened to it in a while.

I was able to get a full uninterrupted listen in today. My god, so good. One of those shows, where nothing is rushed. Sound quality might be the best 74 material I have heard with the exception of the Grateful Dead MST.
One of my favorite versions of To Lay Me Down. Jerry's guitar work is so moving. Great WRS. Love the Jam out of Seastones and then you get the rest of the second set! What is not to like. That Dark Star Jam, Spanish Jam into a phenomenal US Blues, that takes it's time. UJB, OMSN, Casey Jones to close it out. What a great show!

Dig those PNE shows Daverock and the February shows OB.
Would love some more.

5-22-74

Only made it through the bonus disc as I had anticipated. Life got in the way yesterday. The Playin' went some interesting places I didn't expect. Seems the TOOs and Playin' were the interchangeable space jams in the middle from 72-74. Superb smooth China > Rider. Is there a less than great 1974 show?

IIRC Doc had issues getting his photos back. A trouper to give that gift to us all. Thanks Doc!

Cheers

DHB today!

3/30/89
3/31/89
3/30/94: wow! Neat show! Sometimes…

3/28/89 best of year so far…

Friday: much of 6/23/74
1.3 back there somewhere?

And 49 sprinkled throughout!

Feb 74 on deck…
ONWARD!

3/28/89

Will put this on tomorrow OB. It looks like it is a Pearson Healy Miller. I was at the shows at the Mecca in WI and the old Met Center in Bloomington MN in April of that year. My senior year in HS. What a year! Oh shit that means 35th HS reunion this year.

Music is moonlight in the gloomy night of life......

Been in the hospital for a week with pneumonia, wife with metastatic cancer, life, it seems, has dealt us a harsh hand...............

In regard to Miami. Yes, I supplied the photos, the story is from the deep Dead past, now merely a footnote on a footnote and not so important. I had a chance to make a very minor contribution to the community, so I took it and dealt with the fallout. Bad feelings yes, long since discharged, let's focus on the music.........

It was, after all, the kind of magic that only the Dead could conjure. Very fine and very interersting, consumate quirky gooey good old Grateful Dead. Apart from Providence (my second show), my favorite 1974 outing...........

Rock on,

Doc

Best wishes

For Doc & the Mrs.
You're the best.

Doc sorry to hear the news

Doc, I'm sorry to hear your news,I hope things will get better for you and your wife.

Doc

So sorry you and your wife are going through this hard time.

Doc

Sorry to hear that no good news. Best wishes and best of luck to you and your wife.

thanks Doc

Well let me just take this opportunity to say 'thanks for the photos', and meantime, I'm so sorry to hear that your health is going through a rough spot, and your wife's situation sounds even more serious. Much sympathy.

Doc

Doc, sorry to hear about the health issues with you and your wife.
I hope it gets better for the two of you.

Sorry Doc

Best wishes to you and the Mrs.
Cancer sucks.

SUPER4DTOTO

Sorry to hear that no good news. Best wishes and best of luck to you and your wife.

The Good Doctor

Sending best wishes your way Doc. There's not much we can do or say but we are thinking of you both in the best of all possible ways.

best wishes and hopes

Thinking of you and yours, Doc. Heartfelt wishes that your connection to the medical community results in the best possible care in Jville. Though we have never met, special discovering you were an unknown neighbor eons ago here in the land of big green, that we happened to be at Lewiston and maybe Boston shows. Thanks for your devotion and contributions to these boards.

So sorry to hear this

Doc, six years ago my wife was diagnosed with cancer and I rode in a similar horribly difficult sidecar.

Hope for some gentle days ahead for you and yours, and sending healing vibes your way.

"that path is for your steps alone"

Doc

been sidelined a bit too and just read about this, so sorry to hear of you and your wife's medical woes. Hopefully the VA can help with this and that the bill won't be out of this world. I hope for the very best for both of you. Keep on Keeping on my Florida bro. Get well soon.

Aaaa FFS!

So sorry to hear bout you and the misses Doc.
Effin cancer cancer cancer, Marsha Marsha Marsha, man it seems to be all we hear these daze. In stead of pissing billions away on space pipe dreams, and tax breaks for uber corporations, how bout we cure cancer and clean up our home we’ve turned into a cesspool!

Be well, and may the music heal!
Our thoughts are with you!

Onward Dr. and Mrs. Doc

Even though most of us have never met "ForensicDocEleven" in person, your good spirit shines through on these pages year in and year out. Words fail me, but, right now, I'm adding whatever energy I can in hopes you and Mrs. Doc get through this smooth and soon. Onward brother.

3/28/89

Good show OB. Thank you for the recommendation. Great mix. LTGTR, Franklins, Stranger! Nice start. Stagger Lee. Memphis Blues. Really good flow to the first set.
Good second set Playing, Foolish Heart. Always enjoy a Box of Rain encore.

Decided to revisit Ladies and Gentlemen this afternoon. Wow! Bob Matthews and Betty did a great job with these recordings. Is it too late to go back and give us all these Fillmore East shows in a box?

DV

Vguy recommended 3/28 as a POTD awhile ago.
I rehit it for enjoyment and comparison etc

Hit the first six of 84 since, with some 6/24/85 and some of February 74 too.

Thinking 2/27/69 for Doc! Big medicine!

Going to continue with 84 and 89, perhaps try another 94.
I’ll let you know if anything moves me…

Go Niners!

Big Medicine

I'm down for some 2 27 69 Big Medicine.

I haven't gotten to 3 28 89 yet but I did hit Miami 74. That Cumberland snuck up on me, great picking and then there are the other highlights that shined just as bright this week and I remembered. The recording might have shot up a notch too.

Big Medicine, which reminds me I go under the knife for my shoulder Friday. My ills do not compare but I will take the Big Medicine offer from the kind people here. Believe it if you need it, right.

Sports Fans

Okay OB. If I only had those 69 shows.

Anyway, decided to go with 6/14/76 from the Beacon Theatre. The June 76 Box still shines.

Enjoy your Superbowl Sunday out there.

Hope your surgery goes well Jim.

Thanks DV

I have to hit those 76 shows again.

Funny.. those post haitus releases shook me out of my 68 through 74 comfort zone, there was a period when I just couldn't get enough 80's (and 90's, toss in some 79 for good measure). High octane GD. I hit the Giants box pretty hard but spent some time in 85 (of course), Spring 90 and several shows in 89. I just couldn't get enough.

But hitting Dave's 49 through several listens was a nice aperitif and More 74 broke the spell. They played the WRS>Row Jimmy from DaP 13 on my drive home last night. Icing on the cake.

Grateful Dead, good for what ails (ales) you.

Thanks so much for keeping the spirit going. I'm mostly keeping up.

DaP 13 1974

What's the story with Jerry's F... SUNY t-shirt from the photo in the liner notes? I remember seeing it before but couldn't seem to bring up a story. GD played there going back to 1970? Sounds like some discontent there.
Cheers

SUNY

Ha, as a proud alumnus of the “fine” institution lol, seems like something a student would come up with? Perhaps it’s as simple as JG thought it was funny, or a student offered it up as a joke? But now of course you went and did it lol, so now we have another mystery for Inspector Lose O!
Damn you fist show! ; )
DV, anything, just ask…
JIM, hope that doc isn’t stingy with the propofol, hear that shommer shit is very
Owey. We will of course be thinking good thoughts, any last, er a, I mean any requests for while your elsewhere? ; )

2-11-86

For tomorrow?
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Actually on a Fat Tuesday in '86.
For my friend "Swamp" who would always skip class for a week to go back home to N.O. for Mardi Gras.
Cheers
Edit: Is there an official release of this?

Positive Vibes

On your surgery Jim.
Hope all goes well brother!

2/11/86

I'm still off work on disability from Legionnaire's Disease, so I'll do 2/11/86 tomorrow.
Don't think there's been an official release, but there's a cassette soundboard patch on the archive.
Uploaded by Jonathan Auizen.

Good luck Jimbo

Hoping for a successful surgery and quick recovery.

2/11/86

Rollin!

Went with the HS matrix?

If ya dig 86 I highly recommend 3/24/86…

Excellent (in the Mr. Burns voice)

What a pleasant surprise! Lively show with a killer start, great set list, and in an unusual order. Was Jerry in one of his "clean" phases? Can't get more authentic on the Iko-Iko than with the Nevilles! And the drums segments (plural) were a treat. It's clear the band was having a great time. What a difference that can make.
Cheers

2/11/86

That was a good show.
Wild transition into Truckin.

The Nevilles

Added so much to the second set. Those extra guitar riffs during the second NFA > Hey Bo Diddley > GDTRFB really complemented the boys' playing so well. Let the good times roll!
Cheers

RE 2/11/86

Fun enjoyable show!
HS matrix was good.
I’d call it good, but not RJ: fun, good energy, but a tad sloppy in spots.
JG struggles occasionally I.e., Might as Well. But that isn’t a problem for me…
Think this was first year doing the MG drum thing?
If yer into that, I know I liked the tape I had from 89 of it…
Nice to do something completely different.

2/15/73

Dane County Coliseum
I'm rolling this one today if anyone else wants to?
This was one of the first tapes I acquired back when I first started going to shows on a regular basis.
There's a good matrix on the archive.
Peace

Rolling in 84 TN

But that show MUST be released!
Finished hitting all of 73 last year and I think the first six shows of the year would make a killer box, better than HCS!
Or,
A Great Dane Box, all the remaining Dane shows including the 2 73 reels…
Enjoy, that is a awesome show, RJ for sure!

EDIT: it’s on Dave’s list too, so…

2/15/73 Dane County

Happy anniversary Dark Star blip....... Also anyone see Two Towers Documentary on Fall 73 Tours??