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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    Football....

    ....i had a 4 team $20 parlay bet going into the Saints/Bucs game. Brady cost me $240. Even when he's out of my division, he still haunts me.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    DV: 89 vs 90

    I think it’s that searchin’ for the sound, trying to reach the summit, the whole forward progress, coming together, versus spring 90 is like they reached the top of that path, like sitting on top the summit and smoking a fatty, 420 @ 14K as we say out here! 89 was the climb, but spring 90 was the summit, if that makes sense?
    Spring 90 is almost like too pristine, too clean? Don’t get me wrong, imho it ranks with most of the biggins, but there’s something about 89?

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Yaaassss, yassss, yaasss,

    I do like me sum 89...AND Cal Expo! Only made the June 90 run, and did Merch there on 96 Furthur tour, but it left a smoking crater on my mind. Some might call it a dump, but the layout was awesome for sound and good sight lines. Laid back vibe and a great lawn too, especially with GA so folks could go where they want. And yes, the beer was a amazing surprise; Anchor on tap and not east coast stadium mob priced. I had truly, finally, made it too the promised land! If only I had made it to the Frost and Greek : ( Shorline was nice, but I really dug the X! Maybe it was the x lol.
    Irvine would of been a nice place to see um, but unfortunately I only did Furthur fest there...
    So haven’t hit this yet but sounds like that’s what’s up next!

    Rock Thing, welcome aboard, so glad ya made it...as your senator from the great deadnet state of altered consciousness, I can assure you there are very few rules to guide. Generally no politics or any of that kinda heavy shit, and be polite, don’t be a douche! Remember, we all have our opinions, which is nice, but we’re all confused, which is nice, and we’re all wrong on some plain or another, which is nice!
    That’s about it, so Rock On Rock Thing!
    Oh, I’m with you about sources. I’ll take a really good Aud over many SBs, and I really like a good matrix, but I mean really good, like some of the video mixes I believe have actual, ambient mics used with appropriate time alignment etc.
    I get why the majority like SBs, and the historic technical reasons why they became en Vogue. But the tech changed so much and with the eventual gray area removed by the tapers section etc, there are some really amazing sounding Auds.
    I’ll concede that it has to be done just right, but if so I really dig a great matrix; you get the (usually) clean direct feed of the instruments etc, plus the more natural room ambience. Of course like a SB, the mix is crucial, and unfortunately in the case of the “cassette years,” is often mixed so prominently for the house. But when 2 great sources are blended just so it is really amazing how good they can sound.
    The ultimate imho is when the “Dead” did it purposefully like on many of the official releases, like some of the video mixes...EDIT: I believe that 3/15/90 show is a good example that has some really nice “liveness” ambience...
    I like Dave’s Pick 8 and 36, but 8 seems a tad too dry and 36 at times is perhaps to much, but hey, that’s just me.

    Ok, onward....8/5/89 woo, woo!
    GO BILLS!
    KCJ, where you be? I’d trash talk with ya but I don’t think we’re gonna do it, but hey, as Boomer would say
    “That’s why they play the game”

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    1989

    Yes, so many great shows in 89 and Cal Expo is no slouch. Lately, I have been thinking 89 might edge out 1990? It is close anyway. Really high level stuff with Jerry fully engaged. Things changed after Brent died, but there was still some great music. Fall 1990 still doesn't grab me. Not like 1991, where they seem to get the Mojo going again.

    Stay well out there people.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Sweet Run

    This one's for our 89 loving Oroborous. (knowing that most in this group seem to be 80's fans)

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    Cal Expo '89....

    ....was present and camped at all three. Awesome venue. The only time I caught them there. Very beer friendly.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Rockthing

    Right on, Bring it..

    I think you are doing this exactly right. Great show, VGuy, good choice. And an excellent show to have attended. Did you catch the entire run?

    It's keeping us honest.

  • daverock
    Joined:
    Infrared Roses

    Rockthing-your post reminded me of the cd compilation called "Infrared Roses" that came out in the 90s. An album exclusively made up of drum and space segments, each track given the added status of being named individually. I was lucky enough to experience one of them-the so called "Silver Apples of the Moon" which I think came from London 11/1/90. One of the highlights of the show.

    When drums and space come out of Dark Star- I tend to think of them as being extensions of Star, rather than as separate entities.

  • rockthing
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    gd1989-08-05 impressions Second Set

    Am I doin' this right? Sorry if I'm kinda goin' overboard. That's my thing.

    Continuing to listen to the Schoeps MK2 source.

    Hey Pocky Way: This song did not get performed enough. Just some light fun with a little cheesy keyboard sound.

    Playin': Nice and spacey jam. Sparse. Chill. Percussion taking the back seat in the mix. Jerry really challenging the others to find the trail he's blazing. Catch me if you can! Whoa, what's he hintin' at? No way! So THIS is the standalone I Know You Rider. More like a Playin' Rider. THAT really came outa nowhere. People musta been goin' nuts. Can't really hear too much reaction from the crowd, even though this is an audience pull. Up up tempo. Really flying. Headlight ¡GONG! on a northbound train. Nice. :)

    Terrapin: Are you serious? Third song into the second set is Terrapin?! Pretty solid.

    Drums/Space: At some point I really began to dislike the generic titles for drums and space. It's canon. I know. Can't fight city hall. Never gonna change four decades of precedent, but when I track my old tapes for my own personal use, I include drums and space in the song either before or after them. I like to think of them as a drum solo and free form jam into or out of a composition. I realize they rarely have much of anything to do with the tunes around them, but some of the early stuff would go out so far you had no idea what song they were playing, I kinda like to stay in that frame of mind. So, to me, this is the drum solo for Terrapin. ^^; Is there a cut, or was that just the world's shortest "drums"? Some wacky MIDI stuff to start off space. Everyone playing everyone else's instruments, virtually.

    Gotta run. Catch up with the rest of the second half later.

    EDIT:

    Sorry, Terrapin wasn't the third song. Maybe Pocky Way felt like such a throw away that subconsciously I didn't even count it. At any rate, seemed to arrive at Terrapin awfully quickly. Time flies when you're having fun? :)

  • rockthing
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    gd1989-08-05 impressions First Set

    Hey now. Is it ok if a newcomer jumps in on this? Never need an excuse to cue up a show I've never heard. Wish I had time to do it more often. Easily lead into rabbit holes, so hafta stick with my old favorites when things are busy. Nice to have someone to share the impressions with. I apologize in advance. I am notorious among all my correspondents for writing the sequel to Ulysses in every email.

    I don't have any hard and fast policies, but generally I prefer to find a good audience pull over soundboards. There are plenty of boards I love, though, so as I say it's not a rule. Being a minor taping enthusiast informs that tendency, but often I actually like having the crowd in the mix. Sometimes the audience can be as entertaining as the band, like the dudes calling out for Casey Jones during Seastones. Hilarious. Idle chatter drives me up a wall, though.

    Introductions out of the way, please allow me to share my experience listening to this Cal Expo gig.

    First impressions:
    Wow. Bobby's vocals are really loud. This is something I often find distracting about boards. The vocal balance is way too high in the mix compared with the instruments. It's inevitable, I guess. Usually the instruments don't need to be amplified as much as the vocals. I gather that we're supposed to be listening to the same releases, but I decided to see what the other sources sounded like.

    I switched from the Miller SBD to Mattes Schoeps CMC 44 pull. I've heard some Mattes tapes I like. The Schoeps are top of the line mics and can't be faulted technically, but I often find Schoeps pulls to favor the lower frequencies in a way that seems to muffle the overall experience. In this case my first thought was, where's the band? Had to really crank it to even notice OMSN had started.

    Next it was a switch to the Casey Coniff Sennheiser 441 pull. Starts off promising. Instruments loud and clear, but then I WENT UP TO THE MOUNTAIN, wow, the vocals were blasting into the audience, too. Yes, you can hear Dan Healy, I presume, immediately pull the volume back, but Bobby's vocals are really dominating the mix.

    The Schoeps MK2 pull seems to offer a frequency balance I like best of these sources. The vocals are still really high, but they would be since everyone's taping the same show. Let it be said, however, that the focus and clarity of both this and the Coniff audience pulls are right up there with soundboards. No need to search for the show in the recording.

    Cold Rain and Snow: Poor old Jer. Love that old silvery elf voice of his and I know it won't be there in '89, but he sounds kinda tired to me at the beginning. Kick drums kinda have that slappy festival sound quality. Phil's bass sounds great. Low end is powerful, but well-defined, and his upper register runs are right there too, but not harsh. Big smile for that little hiccup/accent around 4 and a half minutes in. Love this tune. This probably won't rocket to the top of my list of favorites.

    We Can Run: As much as I love Brent's keyboard work with the Dead, I rarely get into his songwriting.

    Stagger Lee: Nothing in particular to say about this.

    Stuck Inside of Mobile: Nothing to write home about. Everyone seems to be getting a little more warmed up. The buildups for the choruses each seem to grow in intensity.

    Row Jimmy: Whoa! WTH was that atonal weirdness. That was brilliant, whatever it was. lol. Sounds like someone accidentally dropped something on The Beam. Unfortunately no one had the presence of mind or inclination to try to incorporate it into the song, or improvise off of it. It just happens and sounds like a mistake. Jimmy plods along as usual. Gonna get there? I don't know.

    Let It Grow: Oh, some of those crazy Healy vocal/etc. effects. I usually liked it when he added stuff like that, but I guess others didn't. As is often the case with this tune in the second half of the 80s and onward, we get our first taste of the band firing on all cylinders for one quick hot lap before the set break. This one doesn't get too far out during the first jam, though, before Bobby brings it back and seems to miss his own cue. lol. Nice fills from Jer and Brent in the outro. Could've stood a bit more of that, tbh.

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Oberon.

Having one now.

Cheers DV.

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Morning, rockers!!

I had something very different written, but got Hey Now'ed. Numerous times. Can I please apply for an exemption?

All I can say is, May 15 1970. Let it elevate you!

Doc
If the king loves music, there is little wrong in the land.....

I was going to start on these shows today, but I began with 5/13/74 on Monday, completely forgetting that it was a show that lasted over three days. There's always tomorrow. Hopefully.

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A true heavy weight champion of a show. I'm. happy I got the bonus disc. The Dead at their best.

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We are used to it now, but I sometimes wonder if it threw people a bit when The Dead came out and played an acoustic set in 1969-1970. People who saw them couldn't have been as aware of what they were up to until they actually saw them, communications being what they were. I can't imagine the Jimi Hendrix Experience or Cream coming out and playing an acoustic set.
The Stones played a few acoustic songs live in 1969 - but only two as far as I am aware, not a whole set.

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Really enjoyed this show. Anyone else listen to it recently? The Uncle John's Band, Wharf Rat, Dark Star are the highlights of the show for me. Such good energy and man they are on fire.

Decided to keep the ball rolling with the Lyceum shows with 5/23/72.

Hope all is well out there.

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Yes!!! The 4 Lyceum shows are all top notch. 5/23 really fine, 5/26 one of my all time favorites!

Enjoy, and rock on!

Doc
When it's three o'clock in New York, it's still 1938 in London.....

Gave it a spin this past weekend.

Planning on spinning the rest of Lyceum vinyl this coming 3-day weekend, as well as my DP12 vinyl that is supposed to arrive Friday.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Holy cow. There's serious music everywhere you look.

... and I have the last show left.

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Hey Jim, yes, love these four shows. No Vinyl for me, but I have the steamer trunk.

Still need to listen to 5/24 and yes 5/26.

Needed a diversation today, so I went with 4/27/85 from #49. What a great release.

Hey OB, how is everything going?

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Gave the vinyl a spin last night. Sounded grate.
Now about to brew my second cup of super dark roast Columbian Supremo.
I plan on roasting some beans this weekend, among other things, like spinning some more Lyceum vinyl.

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Yo, rockers!!!

For goodness sake, what else would I be listening to?

May 26, 1972. An all time favorite, the last show of a fabulous tour, the last truly classic show with Pigpen. The E72 cuts from this show were truly part of the soundtrack of our young lives. And still are.........

Who hears music feels his solitude peopled at once.......

Rock on, my friends!

Doc
To be alive, to be able to see, to walk, to have houses, music, paintings - it's all a miracle, I have adopted the technique of living life miracle to miracle.....

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In reply to by nitecat

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Alright, we made it to June!

Any picks out there?

Might have to check out 3/22/90.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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and since it's June..

It's been a while since I have listened to Road Trips Vol 4 no 5, June 9, 1976 at the Boston Music Hall.

It's funny, I was not a huge fan of the Road Trips series in general, but by the time this one rolled around I has warmed up on it tremendously. They were doing more complete shows by then and collectively I realized there were some monumental shows released as Road Trips. By the time I began to enthusiastically embrace the idea it got kiboshed. Go figure.

Or as Yoda was found of saying, Late to the Party, I am.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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This sounds good for my Monday Jim.

Our second taste of this tour, with the download series being the first.

This was the only year this released five from this series. Maybe this was supposed to be 5.1 before they decided to cancel this series and go to Dave's Picks.

Definitely an underrated series Jim.

Hope we are due for another 76 release soon.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Just started 6-10 in the car tonight.
A June 76 TOO Box would be grate. Give us the remaining shows.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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Seventy Sixtus would be proud.

I didn't quite make it to the end. Distractions abound. There's always tomorrow.

After I catch up, and with all the '74 hype, I'm tempted to dig deep into something from that year I have not heard in a while. Any suggestions? Something off the beaten path from a year that is pretty well paved. Maybe a complete, under the radar shows from the October Winterland run or Roanoke or something else that just hasn't percolated lately?

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This show might be the best of this run. Haven't listened to it in a couple years. Great first set, love that long Crazy Fingers and the second set with the St.Stephen Eyes all the way through the Franklins is a fun ride.

Thanks for the pick Jim.

74 sounds good to me. Can't remember if I have ever heard the Roanoke show.

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Playing now.

June 1976 TOO Box - the remainder of the month, let’s have it in 2026 Dave.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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I am really enjoying this show, too. Completely off my radar until I foraged it out again yesterday. I would but a June 76 box in a shot.

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Going in with some red congolese... and Koyaanisquatsi on the vid. Lord have mercy.

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I'd love to hear doin that rag June 8th at the sphere in VEGAS BABY

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4-20-84
It’s a DaP.
Started playing in the car yesterday, set 2 started tonight driving home, get the transition to Fire tomorrow morning as I head back to work.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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Thanks for the pick Conekid. Will fire it up tomorrow morning.

Then, will have to check out the new Miller via Doc 11/7/71.

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Enjoyed that recently as part of my run through the spring tour.
Better than one might think…
Think I’m all the way up to summer tour which I’ll start soon…
Have also hit a lot of 94 summer tour, the rest of 79 I hadn’t hit yet (except 2 or 3), and a few missing 89 (think I only have December left), and I’ve completed all 69 up to September (did not do most of the Auds), and an occasional 74.
ONWARD!

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If those cassettes could be cleaned up the way 4-27,28-85 just was….

Ooooh……mmmmm….(drool, drool)….

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I did this one recently too, about the same time I last ran in and out of the Garden box. I also hit Philly 83 and Boise mixed in for good measure. Plus, I continue to revisit the Giants box, which keeps on giving it up and sounds fantastic.

I will hit 4/20 again though after I rest my bones and get some laundry done.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I will risk it all. Weed clones for One Thousand, Alex.

I see a comparison of 80's GD to dynamite sativa, 70's GD to trippy Indica and 67 through mid 70 to a really good hybrid. Hope I did not offend anyone.

I like it all, but when I really want to get things done or go for a speed hike, road bike ride or climb a mountain, 80's GD get's me through the pass and home earlier. I have always had a soft spot for 83 through 85. It's raunchy, the mix and clarity vary, and it suffers from over-saturation or sterility from time to time. The cassette master blues.

But it's like a Nirvana tinged GD you can turn up and make it through the day when you have to get shit done and don't really care about anything else except maybe the volume level.

Feel free to whack me down or snap the limb I climbed out on as I tumble down from the tree I just climbed.

the flip side is, when I need to come down off my adrenaline rush, 10/19/73 is a good place to start. That DS>MLB>Morning Dew will cure what ales you.

Summer tour baby.. bring it.

Is a very good show. It makes sense to release them now. We have become more accustomed to cassette masters and this run is as good as most if not any of what has been released lately. Combining this with Hawaii does make a little sense, or as a Dave's Picks.

One thing cone kid said recently was more June 76. Years ago when I listened to all of 76 in sequence the Tower Theatre shows (and I think Beacon) were not the best sound quality. In fact, I believe there were a few where only audience existed. This was probably ten years ago so and I haven't checked for upgrades lately.

Anyway, they have been doing this thing this year on SiriusXM's GD Channel where either Gary Lambert of David Gans does a deep dive into a show for some reason or another and they highlight a few songs for a week with some language on why they are playing and it's importance, quality, etc.

This week Gans has been focusing on one of the Tower Theatre shows and I'll be damned if the sound quality is not supreme, just like the first June 76 box. This is a major upgrade from what I pulled down from the archive all those years ago.

So yea.. 6/20/80 Alaska. Why not I say. Also, I really like the Matrix approach they pulled off with Dave's Picks vol 8. I love that show, another 1980 cassette master matched with a really special audience recording. They pulled it of, I'd hate to think this was a one-off.

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Time will tell. Would love to see any 1980 shows out, but, I still have my money on October 74 at Winterland.

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Seventy-Four

No argument here.

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1976 - 57 REELS

• 06-10-76 Boston MA, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• *06-11-76 Boston MA, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete *= + 1 REEL NOT ON ORIGINAL INVENTORY*
• 06-14-76 NYC, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-15-76 NYC, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-17-76 Passaic NJ, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-18-76 Passaic NJ, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-19-76 Passaic NJ, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-21-76 Philadelphia PA, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-22-76 Philadelphia PA, 5 X 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-23-76 Philadelphia PA, 1 x 7” REEL Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Reel #1
• 06-26-76 Chicago IL, 5 X 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-28-76 Chicago IL, 1 X 7” REEL Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Reel #2
• 06-29-76 Chicago IL, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete

2026 would be a grate year to release June 1976 The Other One Box.

“HI, I’m butters and I’m…”
But seriously, how come nobody ever includes any of the Orpheum shows when dis using 76 box wishes?

Edit: where does seventy Sixtus stand on this ; ) lol

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I've mentioned 7/13/76 as a good release lots of times. I was fortunate to have been there.

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In reply to by billy the kiddd

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I’ll take those too.

But my priority show is a Plangentized/Normanized 6-29-76.

6-14-76 playing in the car yesterday and today, and Monday because I’m not done yet.

My favorite ‘76 shows are 6-14, 6-29, 10-9.
Two released so far.

Heard High Time through end of set on cassette one enchanted evening back in the day

Yummy

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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That is easy, 12/31, and yes, I am with you on 10/9 and I will add 10/10, both Beacon shows, shit the list is growing. Just wish they played more shows in 76.

Edit. And of course 6/9.

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High Time was a bonus cut on DaP 28.. maybe they have the full show..

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Hey rockers and Fathers!!!!!!!!!

LOL yes I have a favorite 76. Rochester. Maybe biased because I was there..........

We were also at Colt Park that Summer, never heard a soundboard of that one, LOL did they forget to record it?????

Also really like 7/18/76. Lord, if it has to be mellow, let it be like this!!

Off to walk dogs and have more coffee, happy Father's Day to all!!!

Rock on,

Doc
Music is the silence between the notes.......

Over last 2 weeks enjoyed several spins of DaP 28 - 6/17/76 Cap Theatre. Long while since i had listened. Hit the '76 sweet spot from opening notes of Cold Rain.

8/2 Colt Park has a funny story (review) on archive where a kid realized that it was his Mom(!) that just walked to the edge of the stage and sat down in front of Keith. Turned out she was friend of Barlow and knew him from Wesleyan. And after he (son) got her attention, Mom got him on stage/backstage too! And he got to sit on the stage rest of first set watching Jerry from 6- 8 ft away.

Agree with ConeKid as to 6/29 (also 6/28) Chicago Auditorium Theatre needs to be released. As Danehead pointed out, 6/28 High Time is filler on DaP 28.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend friends.

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In reply to by bluecrow

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Playing now.
Happens to be the anniversary.

The Giants Box is grate.
More video please Dave.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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I did a quick revisit of 4/20/84 also and it was enjoyable. The minute I finished this yesterday and walked inside they were playing the Help/Slip!/Franklins from 4/26/83 on SiriusXM, also at the spectrum. So a twofer early 80's spectrum fest. Both shows feature Morning Dews.

Have we done 3/26/73 yet? The night after Dave's Picks vol. 32, also at the Spectrum. It might be worth our time.

Baltimore 73 sounds good to me Jim
These are monster shows. Will get it going tomorrow. Thanks Jim.

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Perhaps I am a bit late on this one...but I always love me some 76 discussions, thanks Oro for the tip!
I am wholly on board for more '76 - always.

Given the amazingness of the June 76 Box which of course included 6/11/76, a top-5 all-timer in my books (among others), I would more than welcome a second 76 summer box to round out those Chicago shows as well as Orpheum shows. My top tiers include 6/28 and 7/18 from those runs, as well as 8/4 which has its drum beaten almost monthly by Alvarhanso (with which I totally agree). It is noted there is an flawless YouTube of 8/4 in its entirety which is not to be missed. For sure, 76 has a fond spot in my heart - as I say, the glory and exceptionalism of 1977 had to be birthed somewhere...I say in 76.

Be Well People!
Seventy-Sixtus

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I ran through Dick's 20 on Saturday. Very enjoyable.

My listening list has gotten longer not shorter, hmmm.

Guess need to listen more...

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7 years 8 months
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That was actually the first '76 show I ever heard. Anyone remember "Thursday Lunch" on KPFK down in Los Angeles? With Uncle Bob Young and Cousin Tom? I tuned in the program late, and the first set was underway, I heard some crowd noise and then Crazy Fingers began. Followed later by Let it Grow->Drums->Let it Grow, Might as Well. I was absolutely spellbound for that Crazy Fingers! I know many say the CF from Boston a month earlier is 'the best' but this is still my go-to, decades later...