Grateful Dead

Unkle Sam - Obviously, people know what they like, and I prefer the sound of LP's myself. But science, the same science that allows radio waves to be transmitted and received (and analyzed) and developed the LP in the first place, confirms that you are making the logical mistake of going from "this sounds better to me" to "this has all the music and is closer to the original compared to the other", when simple sound alaysis equipment verifies that the exact opposite is true. Many theories exist for why many people prefer LP with the most common being that the "warmth" comes from the inevitable distortion caused by physical contact and the always imperfect nature of never flat physical media, never perfect needle, never zero pressure on the tone arm, never perfectly consistent rotation speed, etc., all adding up to significant distortion from the original recorded sound. In addition, you actually SEE on analysis equipment the drastically reduced dynamic range on the LP. This compressed dynamic range isn't even an accident - it's applied purposely prior to the cutting of the master LP's because the physical medium is incapable of storing more than 60db of dynamic range (compared to over 96db on CD and over 120db in a HD file) so the volume range of the recording has been altered to "smush" together the softest and loudest sounds so the entire range can fit properly in the grooves of an LP. In other words, the LP is far less like the original recorded sound being placed on it than the results of even standard 16/44.1 digital. No one disuptes that LP sounds better to many (myself included). But, how does one respond to a belief that your preference means that the LP contains a more accurate representation of the original (as opposed to one you simply like better), when this is demonstrably the opposite of the truth? How about your belief that a lot of low and high frequencies are in the LP that are lost to digital?? Again, not only is that demonstrably false, but when the LP is made they remove all ultrasonics (frequencies above 20khz) to avoid overheating the cutting equipment. Analysis equipment shows that frequencies exist on the final LP well over 22khz, but since they weren't in the music actually transferred it is clear that they are "errors" or "noise", although inaudible because it's above your hearing range. You can also clearly see that the CD contains the full range of audible frequencies in the original sound recorded, and when you pass, say, an analog tape recording through analysis software and then a CD made from it through the same software you can SEE that all the low and high frequencies on the original tape are right where they're supposed to be on the CD. The "warmth" you hear in the LP is coming from the opposite of what you are stating - it's not because it has "all" the music (it doesn't) or because it is closer to the original recording being transferred (it isn't). Clearly, whatever the "defects" are in the LP medium are perceived pleasurably by many (including me). When you refer to "a light reading 0's and 1's" it reminds me of original arguments engineers in germany faced when they were developing magnetic tape. Magnetic tape is also used as an analog medium, but can achieve similar or better signal to noise ratios and without the dynamic range compression required on LP's. But, original detractors would write things like "there's no way little magnetized particles can possibly sound as good as the lacquer recordings we currently have", and this was in the 40's when records were '78 and nowhere near current fidelity. The complete lack of understanding of how those "magnetized particles" work (although if they were interested they could have learned about how they really work) and how they are used to reproduce sound leads to a disbelief that this newfangled technology can be as good as the technology they DO understand. Those little 1's and 0's are capable of reproducing any sound, ANY SOUND, even ones way below and way higher than we can hear, as well as encode sound quieter and louder than we can hear (although we don't always have playback equipment capable of playing back these recordings), so any deficiency would be in the method of creating the correct sequence of 1's and 0's. But, your statement implies a lack of belief in the actual ABILITY of light reading 1's and 0's to reproduce sound as well, let alone the reality that they have the ability to (and currently do) reproduce the original sound waves with far GREATER accuracy than any analog medium. That in no way invalidates your preference (or mine) for LP. But that preference does not necessitate or justify the propagation of demonstrably false beliefs about either analog or digital sound recording.

I'm old school but I can most definitely hear the difference in my old analog lp's over any digital recording. There is no way, in my opinion and thru my ears, that a light reading 0's and 1's can possibly reproduce the same rich, warm feeling and sound coming from a vinyl recording. Nothing beats the needle in the groove. I have tried this experiment in the past, even comparing a first press lp to a MFSL gold cd, there is no comparison, the vinyl sounds better, there are a lot of very low frequencies and high frequencies that are lost in the transfer. The cost of vinyl is more, but it is worth it if you like to listen to "all" the music. When I'm just using music as background, the digital is ok, but when I want to really listen to the music, it's analog all the way.

Hi OneMan,I do realize you're NOT ignoring anything, and I DO appreciate the lengths to which you are going to investigate this. Please let me know if/when you get additional feedback from other sources. Thanks OneMan.

You make an excellent point about Neil and how many people have reacted to him over the years due to personality and I would add his willingness to go his own way no matter what people think. I would add the point that geniuses are rarely nice people. 2 others I can think of in the music field are Dylan and Zappa. All 3 go their own ways and it takes time for many to catch up. But those that do are I think amply rewarded. For my money Zappa is highest on the scale that would be musically and following my reasoning being the biggest a$£#%^e at times. I don't need to be buddies with my musical heroes I just want to love the music. As to the specific item under discussion. .. Neil ' s Pono in this case I think he is unrealistic but hey even genius isn't right all the time. Hell if I play Zappa for someone I have to be careful especially with the live stuff. He can be beyond crude especially about women at times. That said to those who won't listen to him because of that, they are missing out on some of the best music of the 20th century

Your last suggestion - I would be VERY interested in the outcome of such a test. I would no longer be able to be a participant in such a test (at this point in my life, anything in my subconscious is STAYING THERE.). But, that would be a very interesting test ;). I used to, and maybe still do, subscribe to the belief in vast and undiscovered powers of the human mind which psychedelics tap into. It actually wouldn't surprise me either way.

I'm sure I can't hear the difference. I'm not sure no one can. I'm not ignoring anything -- I'm actively participating. There is another side to this that I want to explore (and NOT ignore). I'm not convinced there is absolutely nothing to the claim that 24 bit has merit. I may come to believe that eventually, and Jon you certainly have done more than your share to try to push me in that direction. But it ain't over for me yet. I know several people in the pro recording world and I want to hear what they have to say. Other 24 bit proponents may have evidence or counterarguments I have not heard. And I want to test some other listeners here at home. I'm not advocating this, but maybe a listener high on hallucinogens would have a different perspective.

Thanks for taking the time to test using meticulous methodology, and reporting back results whichever way it went. Obviously, I'm still confused by the statement "I still believe it is possible for younger, less damaged ears to distinguish the difference." That's why understanding the science behind this is so important. What would younger less damaged ears have that would enable them to distinguish the difference more readily? An ability to hear frequencies over the 22khz that 44.1khz digital audio files already encode perfectly without encoding frequencies above that? Not unless they're infants. An ability to distinguish gradations of volume more finely than 65,536 gradations of amplitude? LP's, because of required dynamic compression, and analog tape because of inherent tape hiss causing a much higher noise floor, already have far less dynamic range than a 16-bit digital audio file. In other words, exactly what do you think is in files that use more than 16-bits and and higher sampling frequency than 44,100 times per second, that these younger less damaged ears would pick up??? When choosing the original CD standard, they specifically looked to the science to determine the minimum specs required to reproduce audio at the frequency and dynamic range limits that completely covers the abilities of human hearing (see my caveat about dynamic range below). Going beyond this was a waste of precious space (at the time), while not going this far would not provide maximum audio quality. No one disputed the usefulness of recording at higher bit rates and sampling frequencies for the purposes of digital manipulation of audio files, which was already standard. Again, what is it in 24-bit files or 96mhz or 192mhz files that you think younger ears could hear that is not completely contained in 16-bit 44.1mhz files? That's what I'm not getting. What is the difference between ignoring what the science says about how this works, and the assumptions made by people who don't understand the logical fallacy in stating that since flac is better than MP3, hi-res flac must be even better? Edit - it is possible someone will point out that my statement that 16-bits can encode the same dynamic range as the dynamic range capabilities of human hearing, is not strictly accurate. But, the point is moot, as no recording of music requires the full range. As stated, 16 bits already covers FAR more dyanamic range than LP OR analog magnetic tape. If you tried to record the sound of a slight breeze juxtaposed against the sound of a cannon with a microphone in the barrel, 16-bits would fall slightly short. BUT, of course this is NOT the argument hi-res proponents espouse. They refer to the actual music that people listen to every day, from jazz to hip hop to rock to whatever. It is recordings of THAT they believe derives some benefit, and the dynamic range of all of those are more than contained in 16-bits (way more than). So, for all practical purposes, the dynamic range issue is moot. Additionally, it's ironic that many of the proponents of hi res are also analog aficionados, where the dynamic range is TRULY impaired. Not all of them, of course. There are many lovers of analog who are also aware of its limitations and distortions, and are aware that digital audio is a more accurate and clear reproduction of the original sounds that were recorded; it is the specific and unique nature of the sound of the analog media themselves we have developed a love for.

I once tried a similar test.My friends all drank Bud. So I bought some Bud and some Busch, and did the Pepsi challenge so to say. To my surprise, the majority picked the Busch and said they were sure it was the Bud! The lesson we learned? Buy Busch when playing quarters! But now I will spring for the good booze, cause Everybody can tell, and the headaches arnt worth it Glad with my iPod, I remain.......Bobaloo

So this morning I transferred the studio version of "Candyman" from a previously-unplayed vinyl LP copy of American Beauty to two digital files -- one in 24 bit/96k and one in 16 bit/44.1. The levels for both were precisely the same (I didn't even touch any of the input controls other than switching file formats) and I trimmed the top of each file so the audio wave started at the same time. Of course, I cheated while doing this and listened to parts of each file. I thought man, this is going to be easy. The 24/96 file sounded so airy on top and rich and clear throughout, and the 16/44.1 not so much. Then I talked my wife into playing the first verse and chorus of each file randomly, using a random number generator to decide which one to play. We repeated the test 25 times, listening first on studio monitors, then on one pair of headphones, then another. I correctly identified the file format less than half the time. Sometimes I felt sure I had it right but this was not an indicator of success. I failed. I cannot hear the difference. This is not to say no one can. I still believe it is possible for younger, less damaged ears to distinguish the difference. I will try it on some other folks when they visit. But I won't be buying a PONO, since my iPhone plays lossless files and they sound great. I'm still rooting for old Neil, but he has some 'splaining to do. Interesting sidebar -- I discovered some audio feedback in the intro of the song I'd never noticed before, along with an unintelligible human voice shouting something. These were plenty audible on both file formats.

i'm personally not hip to this kinda stuff, but a good friend & fellow Head showed me the list of nominees for Best Limited Edition Boxset (or something like that) & THIS BOXSET WAS ON THE LIST, so again, CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE INVOLVED IN MAKING THIS HAPPEN, ON THE GRAMMY NOMINATION!!! ♤