Grateful Dead

The real problem we have here is of vigilance. Someone kills a vine and no one notices for quite some time because no one is watching. The idea of official reseeders (actually unofficial reseeders would be a better moniker), would ensure that someone would be watching. As an incentive, the unofficial reseeders would be given prefered positions on the sign up lists. I don't see why people who agreed to perform this duty shouldn't be given a preference over people who don't. I'm not sure that we even need to do anything differently (other than post often and PM), but it seems like this topic has generated a lot of discussion and perhaps something should be done. I disagree re: waiting a week for people to respond to PMs. I think that vines move too slow as it is. I almost always get vines out within a day or two. In general, I think that one day for every DVD or WAV show that you receive is ample time. So, if you receive my 2 DVD SHN 73 Part 1 vine on Mon, you should rip and burn 1 DVD on Mon night and the other on Tue, and get the vine out on Wed. If you take an extra day or two because you were busy one night, or received multiple vines, no big deal. And if you have an emergency, by all means take all the time you need (please let us know). If you wait a week to hear back re: a PM, that is 4 or 5 MORE days it will take for the vine to move. Maybe that person shouldn't be bumped to the end of the line, maybe just dropped down one spot. But why should one person delay the vine for everyone else? I think that's the definition of selfishness, placing your time and happiness above that of the community. On a better and perhaps more interesting note, I will be posting Parts 3, 4 and 5, to the SHN 73 vine soon. The discs are ready to go. I want to allow a little time to lapse so that if the same people sign up in the same order, there won't be a delay as a result of receiving all the parts at once. These parts will go up to 9/21/73. I am going to cover some of the same ground as the William & Mary and Eurovine vines so that newcomers and others who didn't sign up for them can get all the shows at once, or at least on one vine with multiple parts. And finally, my last finally, I was wondering if people were interested in participating in a group project. It might help heal the wounds that surfaced over the past week. I was thinking we should do the same thing with 1977 as I am doing with 1973 (or at least 3/21-9/21). I want to gather and vine in SHN/FLAC format everything from 1977. In my possession, thanks to the great Rick mostly (that's thanks mostly to Rick, not meant to imply that Rick is ONLY mostly great, he is 100% great), I have 2/27, 3/18, 3/20, 4/22, 4/25, 4/26, 4/29, 5/1, 5/3, and 5/11, some with multiple versions. Off the top of my head, I would guess there are about 60 shows in 1977, so I have 1/6th of them already. Not to mention that we wouldn't be vining the officially released shows (5/19, 5/21, 5/22, 5/28, 9/3 (I think that is the date), 11/5 or 12/29) Of course, if we did this, we would go by SHN/FLAC signature number (or whatever that sbd.cotsman.11111 thing is called) but for now the dates are good enough. This would be a huge project, and would take a couple of months. And it would require the help of our bit torrenting friends, who already give so much. I've said it before and I will say it again, these guys, Rick, Bob and Cosmic Badger, give us so much. They don't EVEN sign up for vines anymore! They get joy out of giving to us. We appreciate their contributions immensely. I bet that a lot of people out there have a lossless show or two they have acquired in some fashion. With my 1/6, Iand your contributions, I bet we could get together 1/2 to 2/3 of the year without requiring the bit torrenters help. I would of course volunteer to receive the DVDs and put them together for the vines (again, in parts). And people who contributed would be the first to receive the vines. Are people interested?

this seems to really complicate things to me. In so many ways that I don't have the time to list them all. Hey, I really appreciate all the work everyone is doing for this but I am wondering if what is more of a "people problem" is being analyzed as a systems problem. Sure lets figure out what works best but keep it simple, please. If this gets too complicated I am sure that some of the steady viners may leave, it becomes too much on top of lives that are already very busy. No matter what we do to fix the system it still remains that there are unreliable people. I know that we now will be going through a weeding out of black hole viners and that should improve things around here quite a bit. Also folks have gotten excited and signed on but not taken the responsiblity of it. I see that as time passes that most of those inthe Vineyard will be the responsible viners. I am also wondering if there are so many vines lately and they come so fast that it gets overwhelming for people. Too much signing up and we can't control when they come to us. I know I have gotten that way several times but have dug myself out in due time. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake

"One final thought, a suggestion really. Perhaps we could accept volunteers to be official reseeders. These people would be allocated the first 3 positions on every vine. Maybe 10 people could be official reseeders. And if something happens to the vine, one of the official reseeders reseeds it. This would be a good way for viners who don't regularly seed vines to contribute. This would also avoid having to ask the original seeder, who already put in time and effort, to reseed. And perhaps this would solve the problem here of a few bad apples stealing a bunch of vines. The official reseeders would know who killed the vine they had to reseed and would be on the lookout for that person on other vines." I think this is a great idea....it enlists a "Vine Police Force" of sorts, it'll help out....I'm starting to get concerned about MitD, I hope he's ok "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."

The only problem with requiring a PM is that some people don't come on the site every day. I believe that passing people if they dont respond in 3 or 4 days is way too restrictive. Also, the fact is that not everyone will be diligent in sending out PMs. Since I dont think tracking my vines is very labor-intensive, I suppose either way is a valid method. In other words, if a person PMs his addy within a short period before he is due to receive it, there is no need to PM him. If not, send a PM, but I would wait a week before passing over, especially if the viner has an established track record. Either way, I think we should discard sending addresses at the time we sign up. That method no longer works. As far as re-seeding, I dont believe that we need official reseeders or to reserve spots. However, I totally agree that the original seeders should not be the ones to re-seed. I believe that there are enough good souls in the vineyard that valid requests for re-seeds will be fulfilled. I know that there are a number of stalled vines from Dstache's list that I will be happy to re-seed, once we get a new topic set up. ( I know: there goes POMO beating that same dead horse!) "One watch by night, one watch by day If you get confused, listen to the music play"

I definitely am not sending bad vibes anyone's way. I hope that the worst offenders are just jerks, and have not suffered any real tragedy. I second birdsong's belief that seeders put a lot of love and time into creating these vines. It is indeed offensive when someone kills a vine. PMing the person who is after you when you receive a vine to confirm the person is still active and that you have the correct address will alleviate some of the problems. It isn't a panacea, but I think it is the best thing we can do. We should all TRY to post when we receive a vine, when we send it out and to whom, and when we are having problems that delay our sending the vine. I am in favor of smaller vines. I broke down the 10 DVDs of 73 into 5 parts, both to get the most music to the most people in the shortest possible time and in case a reseed somewhere is necessary. Much easier to reseed 2 DVDs than 10. One final thought, a suggestion really. Perhaps we could accept volunteers to be official reseeders. These people would be allocated the first 3 positions on every vine. Maybe 10 people could be official reseeders. And if something happens to the vine, one of the official reseeders reseeds it. This would be a good way for viners who don't regularly seed vines to contribute. This would also avoid having to ask the original seeder, who already put in time and effort, to reseed. And perhaps this would solve the problem here of a few bad apples stealing a bunch of vines. The official reseeders would know who killed the vine they had to reseed and would be on the lookout for that person on other vines. Whatever our problems are, they really aren't that bad. There are a ton of great vines that are available. New people shouldn't be deterred by what is going on here over the last few days. we're just trying to clean house a bit. Newcomers are always welcome.

To compile a list like that....it helped me out.I think the idea of tracking a vine until it gets close to you prior to sending an address is waaaaaayy too complicated and labor-intensive...I can't see the purpose there.... just PM'g next in line for their address once u get the vine is the best way to go...it's a lot simpler that way...we go on to post that we've recvd it anyway, we can then just PM the person next in line for their address....no PM response in 3-4 days you're bumped to the end of the list....at the time of the PM (addy request) if the next person in line's situation has chgd they can let the sender know and the sender can revise the list accordingly....that way we aren't blindly mailing a vine to somebody weeks (usually months) after their initial signup....too much changes in everyones lives during that wait (computer probs, life, travel, relocation, show acquired elsewhere, etc).....the proposed method will ensure they're being sent to the right place, and most importantly, to a person who still wants it and is prepared to turn it around in a few days to their fellow music lover.....This idea seems virtually flawless from what I can tell...what do you guys think? The method we're using now would work seamlessly if we were circulating Classical Compositions amongst prestigious Harvard grads..not Dead shows between Deadheads...and tracking a vine for months until you're 3 away and then sending your address is not feasible for anyone with a full schedule (work, family, etc.)...it's just too much. "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."

Wow. Not sure where to start. dstache is an American Socrates. Well, that "most wanted" list is bound to get some attention by shining the bright glaring lights of scrutiny in their direction. They are now under attainder. Well, maybe not. This is a hobby. While I take it seriously and try to fulfill my social contract with each of you, I understand things do happen to folks. I can't sit here and condemn anyone because I myself may "disappear" some day due to family issues and unexpected contingencies. My thoughts and prayers go out to pkpotter, Hal, and MITD. I do have MITD's personal e-mail address. I e-mailed him about 2 weeks after he went AWOL with no response. Remember this folks--he ventured out into the snow & ice to the public library to post updates when his community was without power due to the ice storm. Something bad happened (family, job loss…etc). I think folks should be forgiven, as stated above, when they "confess their sins" to the community. Anyway, dstache's metaphorical descriptions of murder, crimes, and suspects sure conjures up a good "who done it" murder mystery. :0)

Sisters and Brothers, but I do believe it's time to stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings. When I seed a vine and someone is careless and it is killed it hurts my feelings. Needless to say most all of the Vineyards "Most Wanted List" have never seeded a vine. I honestly have been hesitant to seed. I have my 20 years so far that needs part 2 + corrected flac of part one. I will be seeding this soon, but it makes you hesitate when you see so many stalled, lost or dead vines. The 1979 part 1.5 Loving Rhino vine was a lot of work by more people then I. It was nurtured, grown and improved along the way and WAS A VERY COOL VINE and now it's dead because someone did not give a shit. The Stones Vine is the same way. I say call them out and absolutely DO NOT SEND THEM ANOTHER VINE UNTIL THEY MAKE IT RIGHT WITH THE COMMUNITY, PERIOD! If I sit on a vine, by all means call me out. Life stuff happens, babies, illness, whatever. That stuff totally gets a pass with just a simple post, but just being plain selfish and inconsiderate is just bullshit in any type of situation. "Say you'll come back when you can Whenever your airplane happens to land Maybe I'll be back here too It all depends on what's with you."

I've stated from the very beginning that there is absolutely no disdain towards MitD or anyone else for that matter. I just wanted to raise the issue to a higher level of awareness to please stop sending vines to these folks until we hear from them. That's all. Since he was on pretty much every list, the lost vines snowballed very quickly. Same with a couple other folks... Although dstache's list is incredible to say the least, it still doesn't address non-Grateful Dead vines. There are some ABB, Stones, The Dead, etc vines missing also. The situation is actually worse than what dstache's list shows. But when it is all said and done the bottom line is that I am wishing the best for our missing Vineyard friends. "Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"

where my problem lies... Northern New England Wish Vine: must be a mistake, I'm not even on the list Valentines Day Dead Vine: mailed, failed to post sent Repatriation Vine #1 13 from 70: mailed to dpwstldeadfan in May, failed to post sent Merriweather PP 6/30/85: sent to OneGratefulDad, failed to post sent ****I have since posted accordingly in the applicable topics with the exception of the Northern New England Wish Vine for obvious reasons**** "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."