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    "When we began discussing audio projects to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Grateful Dead back in 2012, we knew we wanted to do something completely unprecedented. We could think of nothing more exciting or ambitious than a career-spanning overview of the band's live legacy focused on what best tells the story: complete concerts. Our first criterion was the very best live music to represent any given year in the band’s history. We wanted to make sure that there were not only the tent-pole shows that fans have been demanding for decades but also ones that are slightly more under the radar, but equally excellent. For those who listen to the entire box straight through, chronologically, the narrative of the Grateful Dead's live legacy will be seen as second to none in the pantheon of music history." - David Lemieux

    We are more than pleased to announce the Grateful Dead's most ambitious release ever: 30 TRIPS AROUND THE SUN. Available as both an 80-disc boxed set and a custom lightning-bolt USB drive, the collection includes 30 unreleased live shows, one for each year the band was together from 1966 to 1995, along with one track from their earliest recording sessions in 1965. Packed with over 73 hours of music, both the boxed set and the USB drive will be individually numbered limited editions.

    The 80-disc boxed set is individually numbered and limited to 6,500 copies, a nod to the band’s formation in 1965. Along with the CDs, it also includes a gold-colored 7-inch vinyl single which bookends the band’s career. The A-side is “Caution (Do Not Stop On Tracks)” from the band’s earliest recording session in 1965 with the B-side of the last song the band ever performed together live, “Box Of Rain” recorded during their final encore at Soldier Field in Chicago on July 9, 1995.

    The box also comes with a 288-page book that features an extensive, career-spanning essay written by Nick Meriwether, who oversees the Dead archives at the University of California, Santa Cruz, along with special remembrances of the band submitted by fans. Also included is a scroll that offers a visual representation of how the band’s live repertoire has evolved through the years.

    The USB drive version* will be shaped like a gold lightning bolt with the Grateful Dead 50th anniversary logo engraved on the side. The drive includes all of the music from the collection in both FLAC (96/24) and MP3 formats and is an individually numbered limited edition of 1,000 copies. Digital version of the book also included on USB.

    Shows will NOT be sold individually on CD. This release is sure to sell out quickly so pre-order your copy today and stick around as we will be revealing a mighty fine selection of music, art, and much, much more right here.

    (Looking for a smaller 50th Anniversary commemorative keepsake? September 18th will see the release of a four-CD version of the collection titled 30 TRIPS AROUND THE SUN: THE DEFINITIVE LIVE STORY 1965-1995. More on that here.)

    ROLLINGSTONE.COM SONG PREMIERE AND EXCLUSIVE DAVID LEMIEUX INTERVIEW
    Head on over to Rollingstone.com for the very first listen of "Morning Dew" 9/18/87 Madison Square Garden, David Fricke's exclusive interview with archivist David Lemieux, and the reveal of 30 TRIPS AROUND THE SUN's '69 and '84 shows.

    *Helpful hints for using your USB:

    Running the 30 Trips Player / Reader program:
    On Windows – Navigate to the USB drive and double click the PCStart.exe file to run.
    On MacOS – Open the GD 30 Trips drive, and double click the MacStart to run.

    Viewing the digital book:
    You can either view it within the program that comes on the drive, or by opening the PDF directly.

    To view the PDF, open the PDF folder on the drive and the USB_bk_spreads_08-31 file within. Selecting the option within your PDF reading application to view as a “single page” might be preferable to viewing as a continuous document.

    Importing music into iTunes and other library programs:
    When you import the songs from the USB into your library, the information used to identify the track will likely leave them sorted incorrectly. Please use the song list found here to re-number the songs for each show so that they playback in the correct order.
    PDF
    Text

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  • mbarilla
    Joined:
    of course they read the board
    The cart thing,, i thought they did away with that awhile ago. I know people were buying in bulk to sell the last copies of certain Road trips cause they knew it had less than 100,, For those interested in the the trip to Hawaii June 1970,, 6.12.70 was featured today,, Thats It For The Other One.. Vault Master Dave, states the first part of the show does not sound great,, and Bobby can be heard giving the local soundman some grief. Bear was not allowed out of CA and this began in March of 1970. In a couple of days, more from Hawaii will be featured. Probably 6.13.70, but tomorrow's choice will be some June 1976, which coincidently enough was the era I had been listening to right before I switched the radio CD player to Sirius this morning, (6.10.76) Jerry is a little low in the mix, the venue was so small, its a shame the guitar is not any louder, still a great recording
  • MinasMorgul
    Joined:
    THEY ARE WATCHING US
    Not impressed with the new formatting here. Also noticed we can no longer put more than 99 items in our cart. Interesting, that's totally my fault. I posted there were 1795 copies of 30 Trips left yesterday by seeing how many I could add to my cart, and strangely enough, I can no longer do that. DAVE, RHINO, WHOMEVER - WE KNOW YOU READ THESE NOW - PLEASE GET ME A COPY OF DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 1
  • Adam Weisberg
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    Saturday for Sunday ticket swap
    Howdy all. I have two floor tickets (standing, aka dancing room only) for Saturday night, June 27 that I hope to trade for two floor tickets for Sunday night, June 28. If you can make this happen for me -- and you! -- PM me. Looking forward. -- Adam
  • mbarilla
    Joined:
    Upside out or inside down, False alarm, the only game in town
    Nice score brokedowndude,, was it inside the box ? I bought W77box at at mall music store a few years after release and it had bonus disc. I am guessing if it came from dead.net purchase it had the disc and shops that bought early would have gotten. I just scored a sealed copy of Winterland73, if any wants to trade for FW69 complete set, I can sweeten the deal by adding another sealed item, the Warlocks89 box. I would also have a Winterland 77 sealed from my ex-,, but either Dr. Rhino never sent the darn thing out or it was lost in transit.. Hebron the "Black Hole".. During 30 Days of Dead 2012.. I think she won for the track Passenger (5.26.77), a fitting song for her to be picked that day. And also fitting that the prize was supposed to be a killer set from 10 days later. I may take one last stab at contacting the Dr. and ask for tracking info this time.. I have an email that says it was sent, dang ittttt
  • cosmicbadger
    Joined:
    thanks Claney...
    for the name check. Still lurking from time to time and following the show from the fringes...it's been nearly a year. Been restoring my parents' old Quad 33/303 amplifier set up from 1972. Of course I had to use the Europe 72 box set to test it today, and it sounds ...sumptuous. What do I think about 30 Trips? Well .... oops, time's up. Take care.
  • Zuckfun
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    Joined:
    '73 Bonus
    The Bonus Disc is just like the Prego marinara sauce Grandma used to make- "It's in there."
  • PT Barnum
    Joined:
    the customer is #1
    profit makes the world go round, capitalism, what a concept. In the business I'm involved with making the customer happy is number 1 priority, period. Profit is not everything, unless that's what you're all about. We find that if you give a little, you get a lot in return. One of the things that drew me to the Grateful Dead was this band had a heart. Rhino, not so much. If time is money, and money is the root of all evil.............my head hurts. :)
  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    After reading some of these recent posts....
    ....us 'heads are a fanatical bunch. No wonder some non-fans think were are crazy. If I didn't love this band, I would call for straight-jackets for all of us. What are we doing with our lives!!.... ....edit. I agree. Here Comes Sunshine was shelved waaaay too soon. The '90's versions can't really hold a candle to the '73-'74 versions. Still cool they broke it out though....
  • SAMTHARDMAN
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    Joined:
    Done Sleuthing
    All I came up with for the possible missing and returned reel(s) from a late 69'/early 70 is 1/2/70/ and 12/30/69 which contains within everything but Dew. These shows seem fairly complete, so unlikely just Morning Dew would be missing. The missing reel(s) could come from shows which we have seen select songs be released like 11/7/69 or 2/8/70; maybe even the 12/10/69 Thelma show. And Todd you might be right, the bonus disc was the 4th show. All I know is I am done sleuthing (at least in this case) and will wait patiently for Dave's 15 to be announced and the arrival of the 30 box. Good things come to those who wait. SMILE, SMILE, SMILE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sammy T
  • mayormarionbarry
    Joined:
    RE: Random 73 question HCS
    HCS probably was dropped from rotation because it was too hard to sing the high harmonies, and with the microphone setup in 1974, the high notes would not have carried over well. It came back because Vince could hit those high notes.
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"When we began discussing audio projects to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Grateful Dead back in 2012, we knew we wanted to do something completely unprecedented. We could think of nothing more exciting or ambitious than a career-spanning overview of the band's live legacy focused on what best tells the story: complete concerts. Our first criterion was the very best live music to represent any given year in the band’s history. We wanted to make sure that there were not only the tent-pole shows that fans have been demanding for decades but also ones that are slightly more under the radar, but equally excellent. For those who listen to the entire box straight through, chronologically, the narrative of the Grateful Dead's live legacy will be seen as second to none in the pantheon of music history." - David Lemieux

We are more than pleased to announce the Grateful Dead's most ambitious release ever: 30 TRIPS AROUND THE SUN. Available as both an 80-disc boxed set and a custom lightning-bolt USB drive, the collection includes 30 unreleased live shows, one for each year the band was together from 1966 to 1995, along with one track from their earliest recording sessions in 1965. Packed with over 73 hours of music, both the boxed set and the USB drive will be individually numbered limited editions.

The 80-disc boxed set is individually numbered and limited to 6,500 copies, a nod to the band’s formation in 1965. Along with the CDs, it also includes a gold-colored 7-inch vinyl single which bookends the band’s career. The A-side is “Caution (Do Not Stop On Tracks)” from the band’s earliest recording session in 1965 with the B-side of the last song the band ever performed together live, “Box Of Rain” recorded during their final encore at Soldier Field in Chicago on July 9, 1995.

The box also comes with a 288-page book that features an extensive, career-spanning essay written by Nick Meriwether, who oversees the Dead archives at the University of California, Santa Cruz, along with special remembrances of the band submitted by fans. Also included is a scroll that offers a visual representation of how the band’s live repertoire has evolved through the years.

The USB drive version* will be shaped like a gold lightning bolt with the Grateful Dead 50th anniversary logo engraved on the side. The drive includes all of the music from the collection in both FLAC (96/24) and MP3 formats and is an individually numbered limited edition of 1,000 copies. Digital version of the book also included on USB.

Shows will NOT be sold individually on CD. This release is sure to sell out quickly so pre-order your copy today and stick around as we will be revealing a mighty fine selection of music, art, and much, much more right here.

(Looking for a smaller 50th Anniversary commemorative keepsake? September 18th will see the release of a four-CD version of the collection titled 30 TRIPS AROUND THE SUN: THE DEFINITIVE LIVE STORY 1965-1995. More on that here.)

ROLLINGSTONE.COM SONG PREMIERE AND EXCLUSIVE DAVID LEMIEUX INTERVIEW
Head on over to Rollingstone.com for the very first listen of "Morning Dew" 9/18/87 Madison Square Garden, David Fricke's exclusive interview with archivist David Lemieux, and the reveal of 30 TRIPS AROUND THE SUN's '69 and '84 shows.

*Helpful hints for using your USB:

Running the 30 Trips Player / Reader program:
On Windows – Navigate to the USB drive and double click the PCStart.exe file to run.
On MacOS – Open the GD 30 Trips drive, and double click the MacStart to run.

Viewing the digital book:
You can either view it within the program that comes on the drive, or by opening the PDF directly.

To view the PDF, open the PDF folder on the drive and the USB_bk_spreads_08-31 file within. Selecting the option within your PDF reading application to view as a “single page” might be preferable to viewing as a continuous document.

Importing music into iTunes and other library programs:
When you import the songs from the USB into your library, the information used to identify the track will likely leave them sorted incorrectly. Please use the song list found here to re-number the songs for each show so that they playback in the correct order.
PDF
Text

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If so, I would love to read a post after. Better yet stream the show on Ustream
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Looks like it is possible after all. Just had the email about shipment. It says : " If you need to adjust your payment method, please call 877-DEAD-NET. The deadline to reply is September 8, 2015 at 11:59pm ET. " and " If your payment method fails, your order will not be processed for fulfillment. At that point a Dead.net customer service representative will reach out to you. This may result in shipping delays. "
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sound quality is good. Our futures are assured. Our civilization will survive another 1000 years. Rejoice!
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Just received this fro GD Shop .......'Lazy lightning, I'd like to find the proper potion That's gonna capture your emotion... We ran into a few production snags with our 30 Trips custom lightning-bolt USB and in order to bring you the highest quality product, we're going to need a little more time to whip this lazy lightning in to shape! We'll be shipping out in October, specific date - and first look - forthcoming. That said, we want you to have every opportunity to enjoy 30 Trips Around The Sun on the original street date of September 18th. We'll be sending you an exclusive link to listen to each show as well as a pdf of the 288-page book that features an essay written by Nick Meriwether as well as special remembrances of the band submitted by fans and a scroll that offers a visual representation of how the band’s live repertoire has evolved through the years. We hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies.' Bit of a bummer hearing now ..... as it's too late to get a box, but hopefully they mean early October !
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12 years 10 months
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15 days until JUMBO box ships. IMHO Blow Away from 10/26/89 is the BEST version EVER, Brent is so ANGRY. In fact the whole band seems to be unhinged on this particular night.
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Me thinks USB Delay was announced after the physical product (box) was sold out to keep USB orders from being canceled and boxes ordered in its place. Pure speculation on my part, but...
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I will have to thank this thread's moderator, marye (Mary E.) for providing the picture of the exterior of the 30 Trips Around The Sun box. This picture debuted not too long ago on relix.com site and to me it looks like a case of beer.Hmmm, beer ... I like beer, Grateful Dead Beer - now that's for me! I still want to see more pictures of the contents of the box, please.
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I was kind of hoping that this show would get it's own release with the title "Miami Meltdown". This is probably that last good Dark Star...
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9 years 3 months
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Yeah I can't wait to hear the star if full blown stereo power in hdcd.
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9 years 5 months
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10/26/89 is the last good Brent era Dark Star, but many of the Europe 90 Dark Stars are very good and both 4/1/91 and 9/26/91 are excellent with Bruce's contributions taking them to places deeper than the Branford Dark Stars, which are also quite listenable.
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Yes, KY Trips am very aware of Dogfish's American Beauty Imperial Pale Ale.
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There are also non-sanctioned (or semi-sanctioned) beers like Dead Ringer by Ballast Point and Grateful Red by Capital Brewing. Are there others?P.S. last good (Brent) Dark Star? Nothing wrong with RFK 7-12-90 either imo...
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Great label.. ...I can tell without asking she is into the blues... If I see, I will have to down a pint in your honor. I guess we are everywhere.
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17 years 5 months
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The picture of the USB looks pretty darn cool. Anybody order both, the box and USB? Expensive for the hardcore completionist who has to have it all.
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16 years 2 months
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Tighthead makes, or made a seasonal called Bear's Choice. It may have been retired. Thighthead is in Chicagoland, so it also makes sense to the fans of the NFL's Bears. I have not seen the label to verify.If it were up to me, the label would be similar to the 1973 album art. http://www.tightheadbrewing.com/beer-bears-choice
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Lazy lightning, I'd like to find the proper potionThat's gonna capture your emotion... We ran into a few production snags with our 30 Trips custom lightning-bolt USB and in order to bring you the highest quality product, we're going to need a little more time to whip this lazy lightning in to shape! We'll be shipping out in October, specific date - and first look - forthcoming. That said, we want you to have every opportunity to enjoy 30 Trips Around The Sun on the original street date of September 18th. We'll be sending you an exclusive link to listen to each show as well as a pdf of the 288-page book that features an essay written by Nick Meriwether as well as special remembrances of the band submitted by fans and a scroll that offers a visual representation of how the band’s live repertoire has evolved through the years. We hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies. Stay tuned, The Dead.net Team I spoke to Dead.net and they won't allow us to even download the mp3s on the release date, just stream song by song. I'll probably cancel my order now...
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Items OrderedItem 1 Description 30 Trips Around The Sun Digital Box (USB) Quantity 1 Status Backordered Estimated Ship Date October 31, 2015
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There are a few others that I'm aware of... Here in Louisville, Bluegrass Brewing Company (BBC) makes a Dark Star Porter. And Starr Hill, a brewery in VA must be run by a Deadhead. Here are some of their choices... http://starrhill.com/brews/grateful/ http://starrhill.com/brews/dark-starr-stout/ http://starrhill.com/brews/little-red-roostarr/ http://starrhill.com/brews/shakedown/ We ARE everywhere! Thank goodness for that!
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else care for Guinness's seasonal - Stout Your Face? Instead of a harp on the can, they've got a Nash Strat. Each one is numbered, of course, so remember to leave the Dead soldier in tact before you put it on the shelf next to Europe '72.
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Speaking of beers and music: just sitting here in my new apartment grooving to 12/6/73. Im drinking a DogfishHead Punkin Ale. Great stuff. I have a bottle of "vintage" American Beauty" from the first release Im saving for "Boxzilla". Im listening in chronological order the first time. The show Im looking forward to the most is 9/24/72. Love that 72! Actually looking forward to all the shows! Cant Wait!!! Later Folks!!! Crackin anotta! ;) P.S. GO GIANTS!!!( I know preseason, whoopee shit!)
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Not to be forgotten is Terrapin. I don't think they have overt GD references in any of their beer names, but the company name itself is an homage on every can...
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If I remember correctly the 1972 box set arrived before I thought it would...infact I remember it just showing up and totally not knowing what the grateful dead people could've sent that was so big then when I opened it, it came back to me...when I ordered the 1972 set I think it was in April and kind of put it on the back burner and didn't think about it again...so i'm not exactly sure if it came early...but I called the grateful dead 800 number today and they're sticking to about the 18th they'll ship...obvioiusly could be the 16th or the 19th but in that pocket...not next week which would be nice...we will be charged next week though that's a fact on the 9th we will be charged.
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We visited the brewery on Tuesday, and officials there seemed pretty certain American Beauty will NOT be brewed again (at least with the GD co-branding). As it was related to us, the brewery had a license to do two runs (Nov 2013 blue bear label was first, 2014 red bear was second) of the beer. They apparently received permission to do a third run in May 2015 (Skeleton label), but will likely not re-up with the band's licensing arm. I got the impression the band's licensing fees are steep, or at least not financially worth it for the brewery. They told me the music series brews usually don't last. Two exceptions are the Robert Johnson Hellhound Ale and the Miles Davis Bitches Brew. Let's hope this proves wrong. American Beauty is delicious!
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....I've got a couple of Red's and Blue's and an American Beauty Imperial IPA on my kitchen shelf....wish I had more but they're not cheap....what is anymore? ....yeah, they're empty. I love my IPA's....what can I say....prost!!
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How are y'all going to listen to this much music? I am compelled to process every release by writing impressions of each song in real time as I listen carefully on a first pass. It really gets me to pay attention to the details and note the big moments I want to return to. Then and only then can I relax and listen more casually. Clearly, this fatty will take a long time to process - probably more than a year. I did the E72 box over about 8 months and I often refer to those write-ups. I doubt if many (or any) of you share this compulsion, but I'd love to see your writing if you're willing to let it out of the house.
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14 days YES JUST a mere 336 hours until the MONSTER box ships.
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But I get it. Dick latvala did the same thing. Much like in school, I'm a terrible note taker but I'd like to see yours if you get a chance to share them!
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s anyone else a little concerned about the potential sound quality? I am sure the 70s shows will sound pretty much as Dave's/Dick's/RT do - at least that is how the listening party examples come over - somewhat short of the care taken with the Winterland 73 and 77 boxes. The Blow Away above is from a multi-track but is a long way short of the first Spring 90 box never mind the Spring 90 TOO - it suffers from the usual Brent keyboard and vocal louder than the rest of the band together which I am sure could have been addressed with a little time. The Cumberland Blues is presumably from a cassette soundboard and I know they limits things but they have made more effort in the past - it also sounds like the end of it is patched which makes it an odd selection for a listening party. I have an awful feeling that this project has been too big for the timeframe of a summer launch and the mastering will have been rushed (perhaps this also explains the complete absence of Dave giving updates and the lack of any pictures of a finished set - the picture of the box could very well reside only in someone's copy of photoshop). I am not knocking this - I am as excited as anyone to get hold of this but I would prefer to have it done well in November than to have the sound compromised in September.
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If u missed this box, and u want a home run. "The other one" which is the 2nd 1990 box is fucking dirty dirty good. Sound quality is unparalleled. Im not a salesman, ive just got it in.....again. My average Monitor Audio floor speakers absolutely sing with these discs. Normans best work imho, the first 90 box mix and quality is inferior. The Other One is special. Winterland 73 is my favorite, but the sonic sound on this is epic, and the boys are ON every night.
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They started tossing around ideas for this project in 2012. So, not terribly rushed imo. I'm sure they will have done what they could with the source tapes they have. Also, my understanding is they went digital in '83 - someone chime in if they have some more information. I know I posted a link up here a while back inquiring what Norman, et al. will have done with 6-24-85 Iko Iko which Dave said in one of his Taper's Section posts has PCM dropouts aplenty. I bet they have cassette backups for the PCM/DAT recorded shows as well. That may be the splice you're hearing in Cumberland Blues. I'm tempted to listen, but I'm waiting on the box for my first listen.
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The quality has a lot to do with the venue...some of the 1968s never sound better than when they played the circus?? or some place as a residency...in later years when they got really big they played stadiums and stadiums tend to be echo-ey...so if you really want good quality listen to 1968-1978...1980 had a lot good quality shows...but I did find the larger venues not as good when they played smaller places auditoriums, theatres...not sure if that can be fixed so easily...1990 box set I got that too a little echo-ey a little big...overall not dis-satisfied with the box sets just an observation...still say 1972 is the pennacle of the grateful dead.
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Is spliced
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Allow me to change the subject. Dancin' In The Street - according to Wikipedia, that song on the bonus portion of the studio album Terrapin Station is from 5/8/77. My question is - if they can put one song from the show on an album, why can't they put out the whole concert? Waitin' for for the box. Is that like Waiting for Dave? And who gets the reference?
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I think they're waiting to have the master tapes back, but I'm not sure. I didn't think they had the tapes from Academy of Music '72 either and that didn't stop them from releasing shows from that run. This is of course speculation on my part. I try to follow the scuttlebutt on the tapes, but I truly have nothing definitive to work with. It would be cool if there was a clearinghouse for such information.
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So... I finally broke the news about Boxzilla to my wife last night. I had been dreading it for months, and when I saw the pic of the product a couple of weeks ago, I knew it was going to be too big to "hide." She took it remarkably well... as in, she didn't give me any grief whatsoever. So... there's hope out there for the rest of you!
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I could not agree more! The 2nd 1990 box are the finest quality Dead recordings I have ever heard. You feel like you're on stage with them. Ofcourse the Fillmore '69 box gives me goosebumps too. :)
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Email I got two days ago. They also took down the comments on the USB...and it still shows a Sept 18 ship date. Lazy lightning, I'd like to find the proper potion That's gonna capture your emotion... We ran into a few production snags with our 30 Trips custom lightning-bolt USB and in order to bring you the highest quality product, we're going to need a little more time to whip this lazy lightning in to shape! We'll be shipping out in October, specific date - and first look - forthcoming. That said, we want you to have every opportunity to enjoy 30 Trips Around The Sun on the original street date of September 18th. We'll be sending you an exclusive link to listen to each show as well as a pdf of the 288-page book that features an essay written by Nick Meriwether as well as special remembrances of the band submitted by fans and a scroll that offers a visual representation of how the band’s live repertoire has evolved through the years. We hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies. Stay tuned, The Dead.net Team BTW my order says it will be shipped October 31
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It's NOT SOLD OUT, here we go again!!!!!
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Perhaps these were found when they fired Box Cutter Boy? Rock on
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I am sure as the email went out, there have been some back out. Personal finances can change. edit: or maybe the "talk" did not go as well for some.
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Are we thinking that the tracks that are on the gold single will be included on the discs somewhere? Also, I picked up the 2nd spring 1990 box earlier this year and just downloaded the 1st spring 1990.... It's ridiculously good. The music itself as we all know was incredibly inspired. But, the quality of the purchased product is outstanding. Hoping for more if the same but confident that they'll deliver on this epic release. Congrats to all who get to experience it.
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The first night of 3 from Richfield Fall '91 and of the last great Grateful Dead tour. Every song from this three stand in Ohio are played beautifully. The Scarlet>Fire will melt your mind. The third night will make you want it released. https://archive.org/details/gd1991-09-04.sbd.miller.95313.sbeok.flac16 This run of three shows screams for official release. 9/10/91 is a nice box choice, but 9/4-6/91, 9/26/91, 10/27/91 and 10/31/91 are equally as essential as far as I'm concerned.
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...scrambling to ensure there's $751.43 in their bank accounts or available credit on their credit cards. Can't hold off on that mortgage payment...the electric bill can wait...cable bill should be paid, don't want that getting turned off...car payment can wait...
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