Grateful Dead

Jim: Like the analysis. Think the S>F and the harder edge were a direct result of Mickey rejoining? I am sure it has to be since he was a writer on Fire. Also Terrapin, much more muscle rock. My opinion, I believe they were trying to find a sweet spot of jamming, not as progressive as a St. Stephen>11 (meaning not having to stay so focused to not mess up a transition which I am sure was tuff at times being hi), or as light as a foot as some dark stars. Examples like Iko and Man Smart show they find a groove and let Jerry rip it as the others fade in and out. I guess sort of an example of what they called "phasing." Don't know but has me a ponderin

Yes.. that and things were changing in the outside environment as well. Punk was beginning to rear its head, heavy metal was certainly in full bloom and perhaps Jerry was searching for an edgier sound. Also, psychedelic use was down and cocaine use was up, most notably by band members. The world was changing.. so yes, all of the above (I think), but clearly personnel changes in the band were a huge part of that.

Jim forgot about the whole punk thing. It did not make it very far down south. Had a friend of a friend that had the ear, nose, cheek chain going with the green hair, but he is the only punk I remember seeing. Wonder if any of the fellas (or lady) owned any punk or metal? I know some do not like it, but I love the band's evolution. I know I read the guy talking midi saying, "why would I want to hear that crap." That is fine, have your opinion. I kinda got off the bus right as the midi was beginning so I still have not heard a ton of it. I have not even gotten a chance to open my Spring TOO box yet. My point here is the lack of respect for Jerry and the fellas in their quest to make the sound better. I am certain many people do not know how much homework went in to learning these systems. That is, from the design team all the way down to making sure all could interact with the systems in the performance. As I stated before, the Warlocks shows were my last shows and they melted the arena that night. I read the other day that people do not like the mix on the Warlocks box. I have only heard it once, our audience tapes are incredible. My first listen, I did not think it was a bad mix. Of course, I was grooving with my eyes closed so I will have to listen again. Some one commented that the cymbals were to high, from what I remember, everything sounded as it did that night, minus the intense quadraphonic sweeps. Can't wait for the Miami Meltdown and see how that was treated. I have not listened to that show in a couple of years. It is hard to recreate the quad sound as I prefer straight stereo. Does anyone have a system set up to deliver the sweeping quad sounds on their surround sound system? Again, my point is, I enjoy the different eras. Wonder would it would be like to have 500 shows of DS>Stephen>11?

No charge yet for me or email about any problems. However my order is still active but says backordered still...with a shipping date of October 31?!?! What's up with that? Are they really charging us over a month before they claim to even be shipping?!

Doesn't mean anything in terms of when the box will ship. It just means they don't have an exact date in October. I see lots of things on Amazon that are available for pre-order but I know won't be out until next year, and when that happens the release date is always December 31, 2015.

Yes, although they're emailing links to stream(/dl?) the full box set, as well as a pdf of the book, to all buyers tomorrow.

Was looking for a 77 fix. Turns out 4/26/77 + 4/27/77 are both available to watch in their entirety on youtube....and then I stumble upon this gem: Grateful Dead - Scarlet Begonias/Fire On The Mountain - 04/25/77 - Capitol Theatre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-DVSFt7_Pg the excitement grows!

I listened to several of the suggested versions listed below. While they are all very enjoyable, I have to say I am still more of a China > Rider guy. It just rocks out more for me. And I do wish very much to be the headlight on a north bound train! Next I think I will do some comparisons on the Estimated > Eyes front Rock on

Amen.. me too, brother. I'm right there with you.

The one-drummer / two-drummer conversations always interest me. I played with multiple drummers in my high school ensemble band, and as the lone drummer in half a dozen ill-fated high school and college bands. It's fundamentally impossible to play with the improvisational style that the '71 - '74 Grateful Dead did on numbers like Dark Star, The Other One, Playing in the Band, and countless jams titled Jam, with two drummers. One of them would have to be relegated to an auxiliary role, or the parts would have to be well arranged and rehearsed ahead of time; no room for improv. Take Dark Star circa 1972, for example. Changes within a performance were typically directed by Jerry, Phil, or Bill, with Bobby and Keith following (I don't hear much of Pigpen on these '72 performances - I suspect he sat out or played light percussion). If Jerry or Phil want to head in a different direction (i.e. play louder, softer, faster, slower, or introduce a new melody), one has to take the lead, the other has to follow, and the leader has to communicate with the other and the drummer, either through auditory, visual, or telekinetic queues (some argue that telekinetic queues are a more advanced form of auditory queue, but they're usually not musicians:) All of this has to happen with speed and proficiency to sound good, which is what the one-drummer version of the Grateful Dead did with pinpoint precision; they made the unrehearsed sound rehearsed. When they were on their game, they interacted like pistons in a musical engine, and Dark Star moved along with uninterrupted grace. Not to take anything away from Keith and Bobby; they played as much as anyone on these performances, they just weren't facilitating the changes quite as often (a notable exception is when Bobby ENDs Dark Star, typically with a teaser line from Sugar Magnolia, or whatever else was to come next). And that's just Dark Star. I haven't listened nearly as closely to the 1972 performances of The Other One; Bobby may very well lead more here, as it's his song. The unpredictability and originality that typified the jams of this period isn't possible with two full-kit drummers (they would end up competing with each other, which would not only sound awful, but it would also close off a good deal of the open space where the melody and color of the non-percussion instruments dwell); so a change was in order when Mickey returned. I suppose there are two ways they could have done it: one drummer could stand down and take an auxiliary role (i.e. augment the percussion sound with maracas, bongos, floor toms); or, they could go back to how they did it pre-'71, which is what they did. So, if you compare Dark Star from The Closing of Winterland (or a pre-1971 performance) to just about any Dark Star between '71 and '74, you have more of the changes revolving around melody and volume, rather than tempo and meter. Effectively, they returned to more rehearsed, tighter arrangements, and less improvisation. Take it easy folks. Whoa, whoa, whoa, but wait a second here...didn't they have difficulty finding room for TC when they had the beefed up, busy two-drummer rhythm section of 1969? You bet they did, glad you mentioned it; because TC isn't a chord player, he's a note player. TC's challenge wasn't so much having another organ player onstage in Pigpen, as it was finding the open space to PLAY in (and Pigpen was a chord player anyway, so their styles were complimentary). And if TC was a note player, and KEITH is a note player, then wouldn't Keith..have...the same problem....oh boy, I see where this is going - where is my boy Godchaux going to play with two mother-f@#ken drummers in the band? In retrospect, the demise was certain. With the resignation of the jazz-fueled, acid-drenched monster and pin-drop finesse of the 70s, and the onset of the hard-rockin' cock-swingin' machine of the 80s, Keith Godchaux's role was slowly diminished. The man could play chords in his sleep (which he eventually demonstrated:-), but he didn't thrive as a rhythm player, which was essentially what he was relegated to as the 70s wore on. Within the Dead's sonic landscape, he went from having huge open fields to run the ball in, to getting one or two at-bats a night. No doubt, the return of Mickey Hart was the snowball that started rolling towards Keith, gathering size and momentum with each passing year, until finally it swallowed him up and buried him under. How's that for drama. But yeah, Keith Godchaux, great piano player...

11/6/79

Brilliant analysis! The re-introduction of Mickey made it impossible to turn the corners they were navigating in 71-74. The speedboat had become a cargo ship. LOVE Mickey, but I always wonder what the band might have been like if they had stayed with the one-drummer set-up...

Great figurative language dude, "the speedboat became the cargo ship", "impossible to turn the corners". That's what I was trying to say! It's funny, I have two girls, 5 and 9, and they're at the point where they can sense a dissertation coming, and flee accordingly. Yeah, I also wonder how they would have turned out if Mickey hadn't returned. Not just for Keith's sake either; Billy had become a formidable drummer with a style of his own until things changed.

I too enjoyed your explanation KeithFan. As I hear more and more I find I like the single drums better as well. 73 being the fav year.Keith had a style that really worked in the Movie I thought. But as I see Brent and then later Bruce step into that position, it makes your point all so much clearer. Hornsby was a killer guy in that moment of the band too. I was watching VFTV 2 on DVD and appreciated his contribution as it appeared so did Jerry. I know Brent can be a dividing issue, but he was a great addition at that moment too. He reminds me of a guy that would play in a saloon in the old west. Interesting too how Bobs playing evolved some with the different keyboard guys. This band and all its twists and turns can take a very long time to explore and understand. A group of friends much more than a traditional band is what it reminds me of at times. Very loose and open. I spent the day with the Movie soundtrack listening to all 5 discs. That's a big undertaking in of itself. Very enjoyable.

The Mecca 4.16.89 ,, heard this one on lunch today.. One of the finer Scarlet Fires from 1989 and late 80s end of Mydland era.. Solid show and April 89 has a lot of good stuff.. Listen to this China > Rider this one sails and floats all at the same time 3.3.81 ... If anybody can recommend a finer China > Rider from Mydland era. Please I am searching for one. 3.3.81 China > Rider best of 80's Some of Ohio's finest 10.31.71 - Dark Star 9.30.76 - Scarlet Begonias 3.3.81 - China Cat Sunflower > I Know You Rider Honorable Mentions 4.3.70 - Dancin' in the Streets 6.11.93 - So Many Roads

awesome right up. Never thought about how mickey might have impacted keith. i will definitely be scoping that situation, maybe as i go thru the box. a nice project for a year or more's worth of absorption. i think most heads would have preferred if it had just been billy. i am a big mickey fan as well, as mickey also spent a lot of home work time with new technology, poly rhythms etc which did make the drums space era come to real life. but as mickey was a rudimental drummer as opposed to flee flow jazz, the songs were going to be a bit more angular than gooey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7f_FpZz9lU the old fort ticonderoga. i got close to getting this one right in 8th grade. could not even hold the sticks today. also, here is an excellent example of differing styles with some masters, love these guys. have seen all 3 even more intense, but they are good here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czOjnlvHrQU

Jerry always said he was not the leader of the band. True? He was cpt trips, so of course he was. I always looked at it that it was 49% Jerry and 51% fellas. That is as they were improving and trying to signal and discuss the next move, that Jerry had a 49% say so and the others had 51%. The others could override Jerry but the team had to do it. If Jerry got one, he had the super majority.

thanks for the link to the mixonline article, great stuff. Will definitely be passing that on to FOH sound guys I know. I am trying to get them to understand what is right and wrong with their approaches.

The old interview with Jerry. He stated what they were looking for with Brent was color. I know you have read that one. Piano is a percussion instrument so with Billy, Mickey and Keith you had 3 percussion instruments versus 3 harmonic instruments. When Brent came in with B3 and Moog, you get color. Long held notes, long sustain, bendable notes. It was now 4 harmonics with two percussion.

am curious that a couple of punters have been charged, and a few not. what's the word on this? i'm now imagining some lone figure at rhino given the job of individually checking 6,500 transactions and doing the deed. sounds dumb, but is that the reality? i wanna be charged before the aussie dollar slumps - can someone give that lone person a nudge!

one last one before i head to the house. Mickey called the music polyglot babbel music. great description. polyphonic means many sounds, which Brian May described Kansas as in "miracles out of nowhere." many sounds in structured alignments. the fellas were polyglot babbel music. Polyglot meaning many voices (or glocia meaning tongue or language). Each band member had to find his voice in the whole. the band had to be heard and dissected as a whole and the sum of its parts. babbel means confusion. to the outside world that is all they can hear. they complain "that is unrehearsed crap." wrong you just do not have the open mind to hear it. yeah, polyglot babbel music - many voices making confusing arrangements. sounds wonderful to me!

I listen to '60s and '70s Dead all the time and have all of those releases you listed except FW'69 (I missed out on it but can't justify paying the second hand price to acquire. Shame as it would probably be among my favorites), Winterland '77 (same situation as FW'69) and Ladies and Gentlemen (just never got around to purchasing it). For E'72, I revisit the Rotterdam show frequently. Other favorites are 4/16/72, 5/3-4/72, 5/7/72, 5/13/72 and 5/18/72. Closing of Winterland was one of the first of many tapes I collected starting back in the late-'80s. I actually used to listen to mostly '70s era tapes for many many years, to the point of over-saturation. That's why I kind of prefer '80s now-a-days. Telling me that the era that appeals to me is comparable to an opening band, well, that's one way to insult ones personal tastes. Those Mecca shows from 4/15-16/89 sure would make a nice two show mini box. Good call!

thanks for the recommendations folks 4/21/71 Rhode Island Auditorium Jerry starts catching fire around 4:30. He is almost fully engulfed by 5:30. Five alarmer at 6:50! I think there is smoke coming out of my ears after that. 8/6/71 at the Hollywood Palladium This is very "Sly and the family Stoned"....funky as can be. "Play yo guitar!!" Jerry mind melds with his guitar around the 3:20 mark. Flashes of brilliance around 6:00. On top of all this the aud recording on archive is mint. Phew! Verdict? They were both way better than 7/31 but the April 21 performance is the best Hard To Handle I've heard yet.

Look no further than 9/2/80. It's unique (especially I Know You Rider) and fantastic!

....and its gettin' late....... ..sigh....

i think he or she has finished work for the day...

Weir hands off to Garcia AFTER 4:30 on that 4/21/71 version of Hard to Handle. He plays what could be considered lead guitar for the first part of the jam, as he typically did during this era. He also played the leads in the first part of the Easy Wind jams around the same time. Same goes for the China>Rider transitions. I never understood why he didn't make more of his obvious talent for driving the jams.

Well it's from 1990 but the 3/26/90 out of the Victim was ripping. After the show we talked more about the China Rider, than the Dew. There's a speck of feedback or that would have been the one for Without a Net.It benefited from being so late in the set, after the final Built to Last and a very spacey Victim it was a total surprise as it bubbled out of the transition from Victim.

punter. And I had a weirdly rough day. Almost turned to Jerry for comfort tonight, but back to Shintaro Sakamoto. Watch this and listen with headphones. http://youtu.be/Ho2LTuQBEV8 Have a good night all.

....was hit today for $750. Some of you will get that hint drop. And this box is a most definite emergency. Sold out again!? We'll see..... ....and to 420bandito, thanx for the 4/25 youtube link. Sweet stuff....

JimInMD...sent a PM

I said kind of like seeing a really good opening band at a show, meaning simply, yeah that was good, but just wait, the best is yet to come. That's not an insult. I worry about you Space.

Your CC should be 699 if you pre-ordered , which u would of had to do. If your in the continental US your bill should be 699.

last couple of years internet transactions are now taxed...

No need to worry about me. You look at the era I like as a "really good" opening act. I disagree and look at is as the grand finale that was the culmination of 25 or 26 years of great music. I'll never fully understand the era debate stigma attached to the Grateful Dead. Everybody has their personal favorite eras/moments. There should be no right/wrong, lesser/greater label attached to personal taste. That's what politics are for.

just went to my order status and discovered a download of the book and bright sparkle streaming of the tunes. i felt compelled to quick scroll through the book, that looks just exactly perfect, and found my egypt story printed in full, along with so many many more. i had, sort of, told myself, i'll wait for the big box delivery to delve in deep, but these tunes just keep on playing, and i'm cock-a-hoop dancin' with joy!

I've got my download also,great to see the contents of the book,not sure that that I want to play the music as yet,think I will save that for the opening of the box in couple months time,not looking forward to the £100+ postal/import duties gulp!,at least with the delay in shipping, the expense won't be in one hit. Oh maybe I may have a few listens,drop in and out of the various years,really want to listen properly through the discs with the sleeve notes,plan being to listen all the way through the years from start to finish,bliss!

Just downloaded and scanning through the book. Truly a labor of love! I am restraining myself from the streaming music and will wait for the real thing (USB in my case). So great! If I could I'd buy the CD set as well!

Yes! They left the banter in, my prayers have been answered, and all is right with the world ;) Edit: Once I actually have this in hand, my neighbors are going to be taking an unplanned trip to Golden Gate Park, circa 1975! You see, I paid $762 for 9/28/75...the other 29 shows that come with it are a bonus.

lol - the irony is that you're the one creating the debate you say you don't understand. I simply suggested some shows from the earlier era, because you sounded like you hadn't heard much of it (considering 5/17/77 was a recent first-listen for you, as stated in your own post). I figured if 5/17/77 was a show you've only recently listened to, then you were in need of some recommendations. I made a harmless comment to try to stoke your enthusiasm, and whoa, somebody's got a case of the Mondays - Mr Sensitive. I certainly wouldn't take it the way you did if you said check out 3/15/90, it makes everything else sound like a good warm up band. So essentially, you're saying it's okay for you to express which era you prefer, but not for me to comment on which one I think is better - and then you question why there is a "debate". I shouldn't have tried to include you in the dialogue - it's not as if you don't have well documented issues with people here and at other message boards. The debate's on you pal, good day sir! Four Winds - don't PM with your profanity about business that is not yours. You also misunderstood my comment. If either of you bozos had half a brain, you would have seen that I actually chose a Brent era Scarlet/Fire as one of my favs. Couple of bad apples.

My credit card was finally dinged 30 minutes ago. Normally such a transaction would be depressing but I'm actually euphoric! Now I've done my part, and I anxiously await the culmination of this long-awaited transaction. So how do Boxilla buyers get access to the on-line book? Will I receive a link via e-mail?

Go to your order status page for the box order. There will be a link there to download the book and stream the shows.

Is a good day to listen to 9/18/87. Waited ALL summer for today, the original shipping date for, BOXZILLA well it's here & what do we have to show for it, a link & a download. Not complaining though as long as I know I'm getting one I'm OK. I've waited this long what's another month or two. COUNTDOWN starting October 1st I will restart the BOXZILLA countdown, I'll figure out a creative way to do it as we don't have a definite shipping date. Suggestions anyone? I see it's NOT SOLD OUT....again, I guess after running some credit/debit cards a few were unprepared or just outright cancelled, eventually it will SELL OUT. FOUND; the LINK I will do EVERYTHING in my power to wait for the "REAL" deal however I 'm tempted to just "sneak" a peak without getting to deep into it. Otherwise what did I pay $758.87 for? I'm going to wait for BOXZILLA after all I feel the "LINK" is a consolation prize it's not BOXZILLA. Plus I totally want that WOW factor without knowing what I'm wowing about. If I already know what to expect what am I looking forward to? I'll already know what to expect, I LOVE SURPRISES!!!! HAPPY SEPTEMBER 18th, DEADLAND!!!!!!

I've been billed but still have no link for the download or streams. Has this happened to anyone else?

Got it.

Propogating Fennario's great advice, go to your order status page.

They are now up on the order status page. The book pdf is nice, the music is streams.

No links on my order status page either. Things that make you go hmmmm.

Stopped by the local record store and picked up their one and only copy of the 4cd 30 trips. Not packaged very well. CD 1 needs to be removed in order to remove CD 2 and CD 3 needs to be removed before CD 4 can be removed. The sleeve that somewhat holds the book is slick and the book wants to slide out when trying to juggle the removal of the CD's. I hope the box set is not packaged in this manner. Did not have time to listen to the music yet.

Got the link on my order status page and am listening now!! I've also downloaded the book but see no link to download the "scroll that offers a visual representation of how the band’s live repertoire has evolved through the years." Am I missing something here? I looked through the book and it doesn't seem to include this kind of feature.