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    clayv
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    Pacific Northwest ’73-’74: The Complete Recordings Boxed Set

    WHAT'S INSIDE:
    6 Complete Shows On 19 Discs
    • 6/22/73 P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, B.C.
    • 6/24/73 Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR
    • 6/26/73 Seattle Center Arena, Seattle, WA
    • 5/17/74 P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, B.C.
    • 5/19/74 Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR
    • 5/21/74 Hec Edmundson Pavilion, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
    Mastered in HDCD from the original master tapes by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering
    Masters transferred and restored by Plangent Processes
    Original Art by First Nations Artist Roy Henry Vickers
    Photos by Richie Pechner
    Individually Numbered, Limited Edition of 15,000

    Includes an immediate digital download of "Eyes Of The World (P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, Canada 5/17/74)"

    "We were in the Pacific Northwest...between somewhere in Washington and some other where in Oregon. The road took us to the lip on a ridge, from where we could see around us for many miles in all directions … It was breathtaking to behold, but as we watched, we had a firm realization that we were witnessing something even more beautiful than our eyes could ever take in … Life causes life. Heaven and Earth dance in this way endlessly, and their child is the forest. And so there we were, epiphanously watching that grandest and most glorious dance of life—of which we are just a tiny part—awed by a magnificence without beginning, without end..."

    Bob Weir, “Sell Headwaters—Everyone Wins,” San Francisco Chronicle

    The Pacific Northwest offers up a rich feast of land, sky, and water. It is ripe with influences, abundant with symbols, deep and spirited. It should, therefore, come as no surprise that the Grateful Dead played some of their most inspired shows on these fertile grounds. It does, however, sometimes take a breath for the elements to re-align years later. It seems for us, they finally have and we are able to present not just a glimpse of the band's extraordinary exploratory tour through the region, but a two-tour bounty as the PACIFIC NORTHWEST ’73-’74: THE COMPLETE RECORDINGS.

    For PACIFIC NORTHWEST ’73-’74: THE COMPLETE RECORDINGS, we've paired two short runs made up of six previously unreleased shows - P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, B.C. (6/22/73); Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR (6/24/73); Seattle Center Arena, Seattle, WA (6/26/73); P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, Canada (5/17/74); Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR (5/19/74); and Hec Edmundson Pavilion, University of Washington, Seattle, WA (5/21/74). Each show has been mastered in HDCD from the original master tapes by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering. The transfers from the masters were transferred and restored by Plangent Processes, further ensuring that this is the best, most authentic that these shows have ever sounded.

    PACIFIC NORTHWEST ’73-’74: THE COMPLETE RECORDINGS comes in an ornate box created by Canada’s preeminent First Nations artist Roy Henry Vickers (more on this tremendous artist soon). To complement the music, the set also includes a 64-page book with an in-depth essay by Grateful Dead scholar Nicholas G. Meriwether and photos by Richie Pechner.

    Due September 7th, this release is limited to 15,000 individually numbered copies and available exclusively from dead.net. You'll want to grab a copy while you can and sit back, relax, and enjoy all the exclusive content we'll be rolling out over the next few weeks.

    Looking for something a little more byte-sized? The collection will also be available for HD digital download in FLAC and ALAC, exclusively at dead.net, on release day. You can pre-order it now too.

    Get it while you can.

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  • Nanno-1974
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    Pacific Northwest - 1973-1974
    Hi all. Well, it’s been several months since I’ve checked-in on these boards. The fantastic news regarding the release of this sure-to-be amazing box set has brought me out of hibernation. Anyway, to state that I’m very super-stoked about the upcoming release of these dynamite 73-‘74 shows is definitely an understatement. Of course, ‘73-‘74 (plus ‘72) Grateful Dead is my absolute favorite jam, therefore my arousal over this box-set is approaching dangerous levels. As with many others, I was kinda expecting the release of a box set from ‘73, and we’re certainly due to get access to some shows from Summer of 1973. I always expected a ‘73 box set to consist of “Mega Dead” shows from May ‘73, but these June ‘73 shows are on a completely different (higher) level. Thank you with all of my heart and soul, Dave et al. (Jeffrey and Rhino and ...). My apologies if I’ve missed some previous chatter regarding the next Dave’s Picks. I was seriously thinking that DaP27 would be 8/1/73. For one, this show would be released on Garcia’s b-day (8/1), but 8/1 would also be the 45th anniversary of this show. For two, this show is very lovely...and we were due for release of a show from Summer ‘73. Anyway, obviously the announcement of the ‘73-‘74 box-set eliminates the chances of 8/1/73 of being released as DaP27, but this is certainly okay with me, considering the trade-off. I now think DaP27 will be a show from Spring ‘69. I pray to the “Primal Dead Gods” that a show from Spring ‘69 will be the next Dave’s Picks. I also love the artwork on this ‘73-‘74 box set...very much! Thanks again Dave! You da man! My personal list of supreme-o GD box-sets (ranked): Europe ‘72 —> my most prized possession ? Pacific Northwest ‘73-‘74 ? —> anticipated rank Winterland ‘73 Fillmore West ‘69 30 Trips Y’all enjoy...too bad we have to wait almost three months.
  • FennarioXRDS
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    Preview of box!
    https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35168001_1016058924663538…
  • stoltzfus
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    listened to 2/22/73 today
    another fine 73
  • stoltzfus
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    I Woke Today
    box set this box set is one of the top three for me Europe 72 is the top. Couldn't buy it at the time, but I have quite a few from a "reliable source". Thirty Trips is a tremendous concept. Couldn't buy it at the time, etc. PNW 73 & 74 Summer 78
  • icecrmcnkd
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    Seaside chat distractions
    Birds, seals, slippery rocks....
  • amdew122
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    Web site crashing?
    I have tried for the last two hours to try to get a copy and could not doing it through a PC or an android phone on this site...luckily my gf's Iphone did the trick. I can't fathom that this set would sell out in less than a day but we'll see. If you are having similar problem kept trying. Interesting that Dave chose to represents two years of shows on this one. If the quality is good as Winterland '73 I will be in 7th heaven. I did recall hearing an audience of the Seattle '74 back in the '80's and that PITB is long...very long. We'll see if Dave's on the mark with his youtube comments. The Money Honey is hilarious and you have to wonder who inspired that one for Bobby. Only two Eyes and Weather Report Suite out of six shows...quite unusual for both time periods.
  • I Woke Today
    Joined:
    Go ahead and just take my money
    These box sets have been amazing. Just ordered Pacific Northwest and already have May 1977 Get shown the light, July 1978 complete recordings, Spring 1990, RFK stadium and Dave's Picks subscription. Im going to be having some great music to listen to, but quickly running out of money.The real question is should I go Box set purchase over Dave's picks?
  • johnny361
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    2018 Boxzilla!!
    Another amazing piece!! Awesome work, Dead.net
  • Vguy72
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    Shipping notice received!!!....
    ....for the tee shirt. Made you look!
  • kyleharmon
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    (No subject)
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Pacific Northwest ’73-’74: The Complete Recordings Boxed Set

WHAT'S INSIDE:
6 Complete Shows On 19 Discs
• 6/22/73 P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, B.C.
• 6/24/73 Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR
• 6/26/73 Seattle Center Arena, Seattle, WA
• 5/17/74 P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, B.C.
• 5/19/74 Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR
• 5/21/74 Hec Edmundson Pavilion, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Mastered in HDCD from the original master tapes by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering
Masters transferred and restored by Plangent Processes
Original Art by First Nations Artist Roy Henry Vickers
Photos by Richie Pechner
Individually Numbered, Limited Edition of 15,000

Includes an immediate digital download of "Eyes Of The World (P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, Canada 5/17/74)"

"We were in the Pacific Northwest...between somewhere in Washington and some other where in Oregon. The road took us to the lip on a ridge, from where we could see around us for many miles in all directions … It was breathtaking to behold, but as we watched, we had a firm realization that we were witnessing something even more beautiful than our eyes could ever take in … Life causes life. Heaven and Earth dance in this way endlessly, and their child is the forest. And so there we were, epiphanously watching that grandest and most glorious dance of life—of which we are just a tiny part—awed by a magnificence without beginning, without end..."

Bob Weir, “Sell Headwaters—Everyone Wins,” San Francisco Chronicle

The Pacific Northwest offers up a rich feast of land, sky, and water. It is ripe with influences, abundant with symbols, deep and spirited. It should, therefore, come as no surprise that the Grateful Dead played some of their most inspired shows on these fertile grounds. It does, however, sometimes take a breath for the elements to re-align years later. It seems for us, they finally have and we are able to present not just a glimpse of the band's extraordinary exploratory tour through the region, but a two-tour bounty as the PACIFIC NORTHWEST ’73-’74: THE COMPLETE RECORDINGS.

For PACIFIC NORTHWEST ’73-’74: THE COMPLETE RECORDINGS, we've paired two short runs made up of six previously unreleased shows - P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, B.C. (6/22/73); Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR (6/24/73); Seattle Center Arena, Seattle, WA (6/26/73); P.N.E. Coliseum, Vancouver, Canada (5/17/74); Portland Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR (5/19/74); and Hec Edmundson Pavilion, University of Washington, Seattle, WA (5/21/74). Each show has been mastered in HDCD from the original master tapes by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering. The transfers from the masters were transferred and restored by Plangent Processes, further ensuring that this is the best, most authentic that these shows have ever sounded.

PACIFIC NORTHWEST ’73-’74: THE COMPLETE RECORDINGS comes in an ornate box created by Canada’s preeminent First Nations artist Roy Henry Vickers (more on this tremendous artist soon). To complement the music, the set also includes a 64-page book with an in-depth essay by Grateful Dead scholar Nicholas G. Meriwether and photos by Richie Pechner.

Due September 7th, this release is limited to 15,000 individually numbered copies and available exclusively from dead.net. You'll want to grab a copy while you can and sit back, relax, and enjoy all the exclusive content we'll be rolling out over the next few weeks.

Looking for something a little more byte-sized? The collection will also be available for HD digital download in FLAC and ALAC, exclusively at dead.net, on release day. You can pre-order it now too.

Get it while you can.

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Weird, that's exactly where I have a skip; Box of Rain Portland 73.
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06/25/85- Blossom 06/27/85- Saratoga 06/28/85- Hershey 06/30/85- Merriweather 07/01/85- Merriweather - Birthday show. A 12 disc box all music edition would nice.
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All great shows.. was at a few and listened to all of these many, many times.. both back in the day on cassette and in modern times, I pulled down what I think is the best version from the archive. We will have to wait and see.. I am enjoying the enthusiasm very much.. they stepped up their game that year for their 20th anniversary and I prefer it for the most part to '83. Be good folks.. Happy Friday. I am finished with my first deep listen to PNE from the box.. on to Portland.
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I've been listening to this box pretty much non stop for the past couple weeks. This is peak dead. And this box is the cherry on top of 25+ years of vault releases. I feel completely content. Whatever comes after this is all gravy. In fact, if nothing came after this I'd be ok too. (that said, how about Gainesville?)
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I received my box and it seems that only one disc is defective. That would be Disc # 5 (disc 1 of the Portland ‘73) BIODTL and China > Rider skips all over the place, and there’s a clearly visible scuff on the disc. So I emailed Dr. Rhino and I got a response saying that a replacement disc would be sent to me “as soon as possible”....... this response feels kinda vague. I’m wondering if as soon as possible means I may be in for a lengthy wait......or does it mean that a new disc # 5 will be sent more or less right away? I guess I’ll find out one way or another.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45600372 Octopuses on ecstasy drug 'become more social' "Gül Dölen, a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who led the study, designed an experiment with three connected water chambers. One of them contained a trapped octopus, and the other a plastic toy. Four other octopuses were placed inside the tank to test their response. Researchers measured how long they spent with the other animal, and how long with the action figure. Then, they were exposed to a liquefied version of MDMA, which they absorbed through their gills, and placed in the chambers again. The study found that all four spent more time in the area with the other octopus than they had before the drugs. "They tended to hug the cage and put their mouth parts on the cage," said Prof Dölen. "This is very similar to how humans react to MDMA; they touch each other frequently," she said."
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For anyone interested in additional 1974 shows Amazon has The Grateful Dead Movie Soundtrack (5 CDs/Compilation) priced at $18.00.
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I ordered 2 of these sets, one for me and a friend and both the Box of Rain on CD 5 have a skip or flub during the first verse. Reading all about this particular error on this disc makes me wonder if this is a cd mastering error or just a small batch of bad discs. Anybody not have this problem on the CD version? is this error present on the HDFlac version as well? Many Thanks!
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Hi! It’s interesting on my Disc 5, Box of Rain plays fine, but BIODTL and China > Rider (the last 3 tracks on the disc), skip all over the place. It’s unlistenable
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More '69-'70 - their best years by far. Please no '80's - their worst years by far!I stopped going to Dead concerts in the '80's because I couldn't bear how bad they got after seeing them in the '70's. Frankly I wish they had quit after 1977. Then Jerry would have been able to do simpler solo stuff and would not have died so early. 1985? No thanks. 1970 YES PLEASE! More like Dick's Pick's #8, the best Dead concert EVER! Jerry was never better, before or after.
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I stopped seeing Dead shows in 84. I just didn't think they were pulling it off anymore (first show was in 76). At the time, they were just another rock show. I was no "Dead Head" though I loved their music. They came around every year so I was lucky enough to see a bunch of shows. Fast forward, now I'm getting on in years. First off, I love listening to mid-80s shows. It's definately a different band. Frankly I'd welcome a box set from any era. Finally got through the (digital flac) NW 73-74 set. This set alone is going to keep this old soul going for a while. I just hope any future box set has a download option. CDs are dead in my dwelling (Except for Dave's because that's the only option). Loads of babble with no direction, I realize.
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i went off the bus in 83 and got back on after the coma in spring 87.i had been trading tapes and keeping up but they didn't come to Boston anymore. meanwhile the Butthole Surfers where wild when pie eyed and as close to an acid test as i ever got and they played Boston in the mid 80s. here's what i remember about the mid 80s, Gracie & Zarkov and their "academic style" papers on their experiments in chemical expansion. i got a copy of this stuffed in tape trade box and loved it. i got back on the bus to find some of this stuff in Shakedown and do some experiments of my own. thanks to the internet it's now a PDF. no Grateful Dead content, but a nice friday night read. https://erowid.org/library/books_online/notes_from_underground.pdf
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Don't let your head explode I don't think that would happen and if it did it wouldn't be the annual box it would have to be a side project. I like the sixties and the eighties I don't care if they weren't playing that well. I don't listen to The Dead just for it's good music. https://archive.org/details/gd1985-06-25.142391.sbd.dalton.miller.clugs… https://archive.org/details/gd1985-06-27.sbd.gmb.79382.flac16 https://archive.org/details/gd1985-06-28.sbd.miller.107066.flac16 https://archive.org/details/gd1985-06-30.sbd.miller.89192.sbeok.flac16 https://archive.org/details/gd1985-07-01.139047.sbd.gastwirt.miller.sir…
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You don't listen for good music? Really? That stopped my mind. Don't know what to say. LOL! When I hear Jerry and/or the Dead playing lousy, it makes me sad.
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next Friday on the late night talk show ,coast to coast with George noory they will be talking about the history of the greatest band ever the grateful dead , very cool check it out I will
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It’s missing 7-2. Anyway, next Box should contain 6-10-76 6-11-76 6-14-76 6-15-76 6-29-76 and maybe some in between. Still spinning the current Box in the living room. In the car been playing the ‘78 Box in chronological order, started 7-8 on the commute home today. Need more Boxes. I like Kayak Guy’s idea of Plangent Boxes every few months.
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My skipping disk has a visible gauge. I will address customer service after I've gotten through the entire box to insure that is the only defect.------------------------ fyi I am not a robot-----------
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....has so many awesome Greatest Stories Ever Told's that I almost can't even handle it.
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At 10:30 this morning 80's Fan gave us an update as to where his head is at right now. Mine too, word for word.
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The Dead never took themselves as series musicians and they were more about transportation than music. Plus it's not about what there playing but more about what there not playing. I find that the sixties and eighties have more color. Come on get happy.
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I'm with you Ice cream kid. That June of '76 box would be just exactly perfect in my book. This box hits my sweet spot but even though I've had this week off work I've only listened to half of it so far. Started with an all time favorite, 5-19 and gave it two deep listens. Followed with the next show in the box, 5-21. Sounds better, much better than i remember from the old tapes. Then on to 6-22-73, two deep listens to one of the all time greats. This music is not to be trifled with--I'm taking my time and giving the music my undivided attention. I've got a date Sunday night with 6-24-73.
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I could get into a '76 box set if the audio quality is good. The 1976 show that they released for 30 Trips Around the Sun didn't sound so hot to me. Flat and muddled. I wasn't too keen on Dave's Picks for either. Throwing some shows with some good song variety and at least three Help / Slip / Franklin's and I'm in. Well, I'm in no matter what. Vguy, I'm with you on the GSETs. Cool clear water well you can't always tell. I put all 5 Greatest Stories in a playlist, this is going to be so cool. I will find the greatest Greatest Story.
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Has to include 08-04-1976, Roosevelt Stadium, Jersey City NJ. This show is killer. Funky grooves throughout. I love this show. A 1969 Box or a 1976 Box! I would enthusiastically take either one.
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way too early to be talking about this, but it gives you time to check out some stuff on LMA to sample whats in the vault. you have time to make your own. from the june 76 come back tour, aka the "4 sneakers in a tumble dryer period", the FMs are probably the nicest and most likely. 2 Mission in the Rain, 2 Help>Slip>Franklins, the return of Comes a Time... 4 shows 12 CDs. 6/12/76 Boston 6/19/76 Passaic 6/24/76 Philly 6/29/76 Chicago want another one 7/18/76 San Francisco. because they are FMs they should have a better mix than the SBDs that all have high vocals and drums and low guitars and bass because of the small venues played. 1976 SBDs from the small venues all suffer from the enhanced drum sound from the PA mix. the guitars are pushed to the background and only during the jams do Jerry and Bob become easier to hear. sorry no links without etree to paste them from :(
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I got my box from UPS on Sept. 13. I picked it up from their depot which is not far from my home. They tried to deliver it the day before but required me to pay the exact amount of tax etc. in cash at my front door without telling me in advance how much it would cost. Fail, naturally. When I picked it up from their depot I could pay electronically using my bank card. The machine was even good enough to spew out a receipt. Today I received an invoice from UPS for exactly the same amount. This came as something of a surprise, naturally. I guess I will have to call them on Monday and try to get an explanation. If they know I have paid, why send me this invoice and if they don't know that I have paid then they are surely beyond redemption. Just finished listening to the fourth show from the box. So far it has played through the few small scuffs, scratches and fingerprints without skips. The clarity of the sound is indeed amazing as others have said. That the mix is a bit weird in places makes it more interesting, but it can be frustrating when someone disappears completely for a while. The music itself is stellar - no complaints there whatsoever. The mixing 'anomalies' at the very beginning of shows is extreme until they get the mix properly adjusted, but the mix to the 2-track recorder was probably not the most important thing to get right. Next box? Ark please!
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I contacted them last Monday about the disparity in tax and shipping charges across the UK, and they told me they would get back to me-but that they were experiencing more than the average amount of enquiries at the moment. On Friday I contacted them again to see if there was any progress, and they repeated about how busy they are, and asked for information I had already given them. I can understand that they must be busy-especially the complaints department! I am on my last show in the box. I have noticed that, due to the mixes, I have been more aware of different musicians than Jerry to a far higher degree than I normally am. Bob and Phil were well up front during the 1973 shows, and Keith seems to shine on every 1974 show. This separation of instruments seems quite jazz like, to me. When I am listening to a jazz album-"Kind of Blue" was the last one-each instrument is clearly audible-much more so than on rock n' roll records. With a kick ass rock album-something like "Kick Out The Jams" by the MC5, the impact is wholesale, and can't be divided up like it can with jazz. In this box, the 1974 mix seems a bit more rock n' roll to me. They also seem much better shows to me than the 1973 ones-but I have only listened to them all once so far. For the next box-the Ark sounds good. I don't think I would bother with anything after 1974 now.
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For a 50th Anniversary. Well overdue. 3 Apr shows with 3 Dec shows would be a just exactly perfect way to show the progression of the band and set lists during that hallowed 'n heavy year. Please Please Please.
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Exact same thing happened to me today. Called UPS and asked about this. Very strange to receive an invoice knowing that I had to pay (‘cash on delivery’) to be handed over the package in the first place. Lady on the phone was helpful, said that their financial department must’ve send an invoice instead of a confirmation of payment. She had heard the same complaint several times lately. I will get called back on Monday. I’m sure that will be the end of this nonsense.
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Fourwindsblow....too much acid? LOL!More about that they are not playing? Really? Not serious musicians? Really? Garcia was about the most serious musician on the planet.
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17 years 6 months
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Would be awesome. A Cal Expo box would be sweet too.
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17 years 5 months
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....lol at heads looking forward to the next box. Demand trumps supply. I would like a Vegas Box, but a plethora of guest star sit in's makes me think that will never happen. 1969 or 1976 would be welcome. Winter '79 would as well.
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Those aren't my words they came right from Jerry himself.
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As anyone with a passing knowledge of Philip K. Dick might know- no one can be 100% sure whether they are a robot or not.
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8 years 10 months
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Prolly the best bang for buck retail set still widely avail. Pull the trigger! Steal one! Never enough '74 GoGD in the collection. A stand alone 10-18-74 Dave's Pick with Phil & Ned Set 1.5 would be massive. May need to be a 4CD bonus CD set to get it all. What a show.
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A robot does not know they're a robot, therefore if you do not know if you are a robot, you are a robot. QED
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Hey- I'm not sure if this has already been addressed but I'm just getting to the 5/19/74 show and the vocals for Maybe it Was the Roses and El Paso were so low as to be almost inaudible. Loose Lucy seems to be much better once again. Is this just inherent in the recordings or could I have a bad CD? I can't imagine that the CD would be bad, but the booklet doesn't mention any shortcoming in the recording...a few in vocal recollection, but nothing with the audio. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
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Drop outs on the master reel. Warts and all. If you get confused let the music play.
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That stretch has been referred to as karaoke Dead. The audience hears the vocals fine, you can hear them roar at the vocal crescendos and climaxes. When it goes into Loose Lucy then Money Money the funk is irresistible. The sound quality on these 74 concerts is crazy good.
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7 years 9 months
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We should film it. A prime contender for this years Mystery Science Theater 3000??
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I thought it was you but wasn't sure. Great line.
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....I recall getting kinda high and laughing my ass off to those. I also recall getting really high and laughing even more. Great show.
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There is a reboot on Netflix that is just as good...AND ROBOTS!
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I'm not a robert.
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He was a VERY serious musician and the quality of his music mattered a GREAT DEAL to him.He was super bummed when they played bad. Maybe your attitude explains something I never totally understood: why the Dead became MORE popular as their music became worse and worse. The masses don't have the ear to hear what's good or bad. They just liked the "scene" and the music was unimportant.
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Not so sure about that.. I saw a ton of live music during this period.. not just the GD. Seeing a better live act in the 80's than the boys was an elusive task, comparatively they still delivered night after night. If I accept the premise that they had declined (I'd prefer to sidestep that controversy altogether).. Bands that performed better in this era were few and far between. Might I say.. they were still kick ass and if care and attention went into recording shows, I bet opinions would shift too. Their numbers grew gradually, over the years. The term 'on the bus' is exactly correct.. As for the parking lot/zoo scene, I think that's a separate issue than the music.. but I still believe the whole scene was 90%+ about the music. I wouldn't bang on fourwinds for what is clearly word choice and semantics. I think there's a quote from Jerry in Long Strange Trip where he admits he used to sabotage their success. I see this issue as one where there is truth on both sides and reality meets somewhere in the middle. Jerry was a serious musician, Mountain Girl is quick to point out how much he practices and what a professional musician he was, especially in the early years.. up very early every day practicing scales and working out problems. Anyway.. If I had the crystal ball of truth, I bet you two aren't as far apart as it appears and from afar, you both have points..
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