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    clayv
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    Who's up for a revolutionary evolutionary ride? DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 30: FILLMORE EAST, NEW YORK, NEW YORK 1/2/70 captures the Grateful Dead as they make their first foray from the experimental 60s into their early 70s acoustic Americana period. Yes, this one is a little bit country and a little bit (psychedelic) rock and roll.

    When the "Magnificent Seven" - Pigpen on percussion, T.C. on keys - first took the stage on 1/2/70, evidence was clear that the trip was about to take a turn. From their western wears to the twang in Jerry’s “broken-string blues,” it appeared they'd brought the Bakersfield sound to the Big Apple. They worked through much of what would become Workingman's Dead, stunning the crowd with laid-back numbers like "Uncle John's Band," "Casey Jones," and "Black Peter." Just the same, they satisfied 60s stalwarts with magical versions of "Dark Star," "St. Stephen," and "That's It For The Other One." Sonic alchemy, indeed!

    DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 30: FILLMORE EAST, NEW YORK, ​New York 1/2/70 has been rounded out with a bit of 1/3/70 (the subscribers-only bonus disc features the bulk of 1/3/70). It was recorded by the great Owsley "Bear" Stanley and has been lovingly mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman.

    DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 30 is limited to 20,000 individually-numbered copies*.

    *Limited to 2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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  • #441
    hendrixfreak
    Joined:
    rumblings for fall '72..... heh heh heh

    I see two, no four! mentions that a fall '72 box would be well rec'd! a virtual trend...

    And DaP 31 will be from '79.

    You heard it here ... repeatedly.

    Gonna paddle 40 miles of the Yampa River this weekend in a packraft, with a soft cooler and a Pax, oh and maybe a tent and sleeping bag. And when I return Monday, the box set announcement will have been made. Or DaP 31. Or both!

    I can feeeeel it...... (God bless sativa)

  • #442
    alvarhanso
    Joined:
    Jealous of Senor Nappyrags

    Wow, to have seen Atom Heart Mother with the orchestra and choir would have been amazing, as well as the Meddle tour, even with a freakout in Careful. Even though you missed the Dark Side tour, weren't they still playing it and Wish You Were Here along with Raving and Drooling and You Gotta Be Crazy as well as Echoes most shows in 1975?

    6/30/95 is one of the last good Dead shows that I've listened to, love the Rain sequence, especially Rain itself, which is probably my favorite Beatles song and their first real psychedelic song, an awesome bassline by Paul, and Ringo's best performance. Deadheads didn't live up to Lennon's prediction on that day: "If the rain comes, they run and hide their heads." My buddy that was there told me even Samba in the Rain was well received due to the downpour.

  • #443
    nappyrags
    Joined:
    Well now...

    ...as for me I wouldn't buy anything after '89....had a hard time at the shows seeing Jerry's decline and didn't go to much after that...I did attend some that i worked, especially the '94 LA Sports Arena shows (To quote Bette Davis "What a dump")...I was helping a friend's catering company at those shows and the one that had the "Dark Star" with Branford Marsalis was pretty good....but still, some of the cover choices were pretty bad for me...but hey, that's life! As for Floyd I was lucky enough to catch both the Meddle tour and the Atom Heart Mother show at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium...AHM was with a small brass orchestra and choir...I can't remember which show it was but someone sitting in the orchestra pit freaked out during the intro to "Careful..." and jumped up with his hands over his ears yelling stop!!! His friends took him out of the hall...pretty trippy...I missed Dark Side at the Hollywood Bowl but caught the Wish You Were Here tour stop at the aforementioned dive Sports Arena...these were the famous gigs were the LA Police threw raids in the parking lot and inside the arena, arresting dozens of poor loaded concert goers...there were signs everywhere saying "THIS IS NOT A SANCTUARY" set in motioon by Police Chief "Crazy Ed" Davis...they pulled the same stunts at the Shrine Audtorium Dead shows in '76 busting a whole lot of folk both inside and outside the gig...well I'll stop rambling now...gotta finish these chilaquiles...

  • #444
    icecrmcnkd
    Joined:
    Box Set - Oakland October 1991

    That would be quite nice. Those shows smoke.

    DaP 31
    7-1-85
    Playing Scarlet/Fire right now.

    Pink Floyd discussion - it’s because we’ve been left high and dry regarding the next GD Box announcement.
    I bought all of the individual PF Boxes for about half the price of the Complete Box. Only missed out on some bonus stuff that wasn’t really that enticing - the 2 movies are available separately.
    I had that Wembley 74 show on cassette. I bet the official release sounds way better.

    2-28-69 vinyl coming out soon, along with some JGB.

    But, what about Gainesville?.....

  • #445
    Strider 808808
    Joined:
    Gary Duncan / Quicksilver Messenger Service

    The one time I saw Quicksilver Messenger Service they were the headliner at Winterland, December 28, 1975. One of those one time passing moments of luck. Ken Kesey wrote a glowing piece about them in the Last Supplement to the Whole Earth Catalog back in 1971 . The first QMS album with the Rick Griffin lettering and scroll work on the cover was reflective of the times in more ways than one. Stand out songs would be Gold and Silver and The Fool. In fact to say that some their music exuded and personified the psychedelic experience would be putting it lightly. (Light-lee) Also of great note would be their second album "Happy Trails' that includes psychedelic bolero riffs. Very tripped out.
    When Gary Duncan jammed with the Grateful Dead in October 1991 I thought something remarkable was going down. The jam (Hey Bo Diddley-Mona) on the first night of that run at the Oakland Colosseum that included Carlos Santana and Gary Duncan was perhaps the closest feeling to old time jam sessions at the Fillmore transported 25 years into the future. As readers well know that night took place right after Bill Graham died in the helicopter crash.
    Then the jam on Halloween night of that same run with Gary during Dark Star that included Ken Kesey performing a "Beat" eulogy was so fucking over the top that included Kesey reciting the E.E. Cummings poem "Buffalo Bill" had to have been one of the last great defining moments of the Grateful Dead in their waning days and the spirit of times gone by. Gives me chills thinking about it.
    One other extremely "outer/inner space" song by the amazing Quicksilver Messenger Service was"the Flute Song". Including the skeleton keys of Nicky Hopkins. Gary Duncan was a man of extremes. Read the interview with Gary in Uncut Magazine from a couple years back. He was intensity personified.
    So "Trip the light fantastic" while you still can.

  • #446
    Mind-Left-Body
    Joined:
    No doubt pass

    Not a fan of Brent's. I could deal with a Bruce Vince set if the performances are really knockout. Yeah I'd be bummed. That would put me at 2 years between box sets that I would really really enjoy. They could just do both. While I would like to see a huge 1972 box, I'd settle for a 3 show job.

  • #447
    Butch
    Joined:
    I would pass

    On a Brent box set. I would be disappointed if it's not something from the 60s or 70s. I would buy something with Bruce and Vince.

  • #448
    Mind-Left-Body
    Joined:
    Ba' gok!

    Check your PM

  • #449
    Vguy72
    Joined:
    My first Floyd record was also Relics....

    ....but i bought it because i thought the album cover was cool and that he had a cool name (hey. give me a break. I was twelve). Then I got The Wall, Then The Final Cut, then Dark Side, then the rest.
    The first time I heard Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict, my world was opened to a whole nother side of what music could be.

  • #450
    Dennis
    Joined:
    Final Cut

    Two Suns in the Sunset

    And as the windshield melts
    My tears evaporate
    Leaving only charcoal to defend.
    Finally I understand the feelings of the few.
    Ashes and diamonds
    Foe and friend
    We were all equal in the end.

    I always feel ……. wow, followed by the tear

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Who's up for a revolutionary evolutionary ride? DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 30: FILLMORE EAST, NEW YORK, NEW YORK 1/2/70 captures the Grateful Dead as they make their first foray from the experimental 60s into their early 70s acoustic Americana period. Yes, this one is a little bit country and a little bit (psychedelic) rock and roll.

When the "Magnificent Seven" - Pigpen on percussion, T.C. on keys - first took the stage on 1/2/70, evidence was clear that the trip was about to take a turn. From their western wears to the twang in Jerry’s “broken-string blues,” it appeared they'd brought the Bakersfield sound to the Big Apple. They worked through much of what would become Workingman's Dead, stunning the crowd with laid-back numbers like "Uncle John's Band," "Casey Jones," and "Black Peter." Just the same, they satisfied 60s stalwarts with magical versions of "Dark Star," "St. Stephen," and "That's It For The Other One." Sonic alchemy, indeed!

DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 30: FILLMORE EAST, NEW YORK, ​New York 1/2/70 has been rounded out with a bit of 1/3/70 (the subscribers-only bonus disc features the bulk of 1/3/70). It was recorded by the great Owsley "Bear" Stanley and has been lovingly mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman.

DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 30 is limited to 20,000 individually-numbered copies*.

*Limited to 2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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Submitted by Elbow49 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 18:29

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The next box set will be announced next Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at approximately 1:00PM EST. The box set will contain the 6 shows played at The Capitol Theater in February 1971 or maybe every show played at The Capitol Theater.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 18:37

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....if true. Three From The Vault is already an official release of one of that run, so I'm skeptical.

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Submitted by jrf68@hotmail.com on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 19:10

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How about a box that's got all the different piano & keys players representing all the band configurations through the years?
Pig, TC, Keith, Brent, Vinnie & Bruce.
That would be something...

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Submitted by alvarhanso on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 19:22

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Would love that! So many debuts, the ESP experiment and the Dark Star> Wharf Rat (debut)> Beautiful Jam> Dark Star would be on the 3 cd compilation for sure. Amazing that they only ever did Wharf Rat in the middle of Dark Star once. One of my bands does Wharf Rat quite a bit, and it's hard to avoid doing Dark Star teases in it. I've even labeled some of them Wharf Star jams as we'll go back and forth. We also like to throw The Other One jams into Wharf Rat at the bridge when it crashes into E, or other songs in E scales, like Phish's Carini, but I digress... I'm not expecting the Capitol Box this time around, but they have to at some point since the Bettys came back, and they were among the most sought after. If they indeed do announce it, I'll definitely be on board. It would be odd to release the already released show as part of it. If they did, I would hope it would sort of be a buy 6 get one free type deal to keep it the same price range as the PacNW box, which was $50 more than July '78's 5 shows.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 19:37

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....and I'm sticking to it. Dude was the showman of showmen. I have a couple of aunts that approve. And one uncle. Eating flaming hot Cheetos as I type this....phone getting orange. Gonna go there.... Liberace was gay. Flaming is a term for gay. 🤔 that one out.

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 19:40

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Really, where to start....

That’s why we need more than one per year.

Mini-Boxes: Pigpen/TC, Keith, Brent, Vince/Bruce.

That way people can choose their era, and for those whose era spans 65-95, they really score.

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 19:49

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Moved to the second hockey game (muted), now spinning 5-19-74 vinyl.

Vinyl sounds awesome with the volume turned up.
Starting to think that the return of vinyl in 180g form was a good idea by those people who keep coming up with ways to get me to send them money.

Little known fact.. In his later years, he covered a mean version of Day Job.

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Submitted by kevinbrandon on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 20:06

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"Are anyone of you Homosexuals......Like Flaming......No but we are willing to try"

Sorry VGUY I couldn't resist everytime I here that word I think of this very famous 1981 (big Hint) Movie

Any takers

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Submitted by kevinbrandon on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 20:28

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Ding Ding Ding you are correct sir.....Give that man a Cigar ( Quote from another classic 1982 movie) Did not mean that it just came out..

KeithFan after I wrote that I saw your Stripes quote....."A foot without a big toe" LOL....

I wanna party with you Cowboy.....

....John Candy. "is there a good movie on this flight?" Yessir. Early 80's is my wheelhouse.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 20:46

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Don't call me Francis. And don't none of you homos touch my stuff. Or I will kill ya.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 21:40

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.... savoring the '67 Boxilla gig. I love Alligator. This take pulls Jerry and Phil into the ether. Don't look at me! It's not my fault....

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Submitted by Charlie3 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 21:47

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The title to Bolo's post is reminiscent of some of the opening lines of the song In the Beginning by the Moody Blues from their 1969 album Threshold of a Dream. Another clue for a 1969 show, or was he just paraphrasing Descartes?

Fugazi always meant fake when I heard it used and that seems consistent with the context in which Bolo used the word.

Bolo's reference to the captcha thingy showing stages of his life - does this mean shows spread over different years or decades, or is it just a fugazi clue?

Chrono-synclastic infundibulum? Gotta say never heard of this before and had to look it up to see what it meant. As I understand it now a person who has entered a chrono-synclastic infundibulum exists at multiple points and lines in space time. I like ShaggyFraggle's thoughts on this and his pointing out that it is from a Kurt Vonnegut's book Sirens of Titan. So are we getting shows from different points in space and time throughout the dead's career? Or did Bolo just want use the phrase chrono-synclastic infundibulum in a post?

So many questions...

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 22:10

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We will be getting a box announcement soon.. It's not going to be 73/74, thinking earlier. Ark or the Capitol?

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Submitted by Charlie3 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 22:12

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McArthur Court, August 16, 1981, Eugene Oregon, Grateful Dead with Ken Kesey, Zane Kesey, Ken Babbs and the Thunder Machine.
Hmmm...
Looks like Kesey and his Thunder Machine also made an appearance at some other shows as well, including maybe 6/25/78 Eugene, Oregon, 5/8/84 Silva Hall, Eugene, Oregon and 6/23/90 Eugene, Oregon. I think I see a pattern here.
Making me think maybe it will be a series of shows from Eugene, Oregon with appearances by the Thunder Machine.

....'cause, you know, that's how it works.
8.16.81 is fine. Gotta give kudos to a Stranger 2nd set opener. Right?
edit.... Scarlet is fast. Fasten your seatbelts.

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Submitted by Charlie3 on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 23:00

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After checking to see at which shows Kesey's Thunder Machine made an appearance, and all of the ones that I was able to find looked pretty hot based on the comments that I found with the shows. Looks like the Thunder Machine also made an appearance at the closing of Winterland show on 12/31/78, but that has already been released. If that is what the box will be, a series of shows with the Thunder Machine, I'll be a happy camper, and if not I am guessing whatever it is will make me smile.

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Submitted by Lovemygirl on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 02:59

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...a grateful morning to all my brothers and sisters in Dead Land...drinking my coffee with the Grateful Dead Road Trips Vol. 4 Number 1
“Big Rock Pow Wow” May 23rd-24th 1969!!! Playing in the background while I prepare myself for another day of love, laughter and joy! Everyone enjoy your parcels today of Daves Picks #30 / Plus this years Bonus Disc!
Sit back and get transported to a time long long ago in a galaxy far far away thru the space continueum transporter... peace be with all. Smile Smile Smile my friends, guaranteed to make you feel better than good; great! Lol ha ha . Take care and Rock On! 🙏❤️😎

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Submitted by Roguedeadguy on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 03:49

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weekend plans confirmed. Although I will have to mix it up with some of the New Orleans Jazz Festival broadcasts on WWOZ.

I gotta say the Bolo clue sleuthing seems really on point. If the box doesn't turn out to be a collection of shows from different eras; then he has to admit he's just f*ing with us :)

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Submitted by fourwindsblow on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 04:33

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"My trip back here to this site has been long and strange. Hmmm...that sounds oddly familiar. I was trapped in a chrono-synclastic infundibulum a couple parsecs from Earth for what seemed like a decade, and only made it back here by the grace of God and my life-sustaining supply of flamin' hot Cheetos®".

I'm going with a box of Greek shows. One from each run of shows for the entire 1980's decade.

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Submitted by Forensicdoceleven on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 04:48

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Yo!! Rockers!!!!

It has been a year since I had my stroke. To all those who sent thoughts & prayers, good kharma, and general encouragement, I am eternally grateful. I am feeling fine, doing well, life is good!!!

In honor of this auspicious occasion, anybody who needs/wants any 71s, you know where to find me...………

Rock on!!!!!

Doc

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Submitted by stoltzfus on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 06:11

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if there are Greek shows on the way...

:)))

to buy, or not to buy? that is the question.

got a "few" discs here at home, plus a change of abode coming up, plus other expenses.

just gotta wait and see. "now let's go wait and see, wait and see, wait and see....."

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Submitted by stoltzfus on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 06:29

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claim to fame: Chewbacca actor.

RRRRRRRRR!!!!

it was funny at the time: my kids (as teens) and I used to joke that Wookies sound like they do because they are wasted drunk.

Chewie forever; thank you PM.

What did you think of DaP 26? I'm sure you had 12/14/71, but nobody had the SBD of 11/17/71 and just curious, in your 71 expertise, where did that improved sound land that one in your books? Glad to hear you're well!

May everybody get their 1970 fix today!

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Submitted by Lovemygirl on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 07:21

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*Bonus Disc: January 3rd 1970
Cold Rain and Snow, Alligator >, Drums >, Alligator >, Feedback, Casey Jones, Mason's Children, That's It For The Other One >, Cosmic Charlie, Uncle John's Band.

...I might of wrote it down wrong, I’ll check when I get back home. Driving home from the doctors. 🙏

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Submitted by alvarhanso on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 07:40

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Well, my guess was off, surprised the UJB> Black Peter segue is cut (Dave seems to love Black Peter) and at the cut of Cumberland and especially Dire Wolf given the cover art, but no complaints. Didn't realize CR&S was public domain, but I love any disc that opens with that.

2 weeks ago I predicted:
Only clue given was Alligator, and they very wisely used the key covers as filler on disc 2, and the rule about originals or public domain leads me to think the bonus disc will look thus:
Cumberland Blues, Alligator> Drums> Alligator> (Caution Jam tracked?) Feedback, Mason's Children, That's It For The Other One> Cosmic Charlie, Uncle John's Band> Black Peter, Dire Wolf

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Submitted by deadegad on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 07:47

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#952 has landed in N.Y.C. via UPS just one minute ago! Wow! Usually we are late in receiving a Dave's compared to the rest of the country but not this time. What a complete surprise. Having said, and to our European friends, my heart goes out to you for those long waits and #$%^& damned tax/postal fee collectors who 'Shake You Down' for extra money to get a cd in the mail. I got lucky this time.

It looks beautiful on an unseasonably cold May 3rd. Smiling on a Cloudy Day!?!

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Submitted by hbob1995 on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 07:49

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Two things here:
1 - The confirmed ship date for DaP30 was April 26th. Now we hear that Dead.net / Rhino is moving to a different warehouse and shipments will be delayed!! Why was this move not done on Feb. 2, right after DaP29 went out? C'mon Doc! We are dying out here! 3 months was bad enough. This is just insult to injury!
2 - Most of us call for "complete" shows. While DaP30 may include the complete show from Jan. 2, looking at my Deadbase it appears that this release has completely reconfigured the set list of the show and they have changed the flow. Not cool. It may be complete, but it is not the way the boys offered it up that night.

Rock on

It’s friday, the snows gone for now, it’s a bright sunny Friday in the high country, new Dead showing up everywhere, Bolos got this place jumpin’ , new box on the horizon, and if that ain’t Enough,, WELCOME BACK DOC!

Edit: oh yea, and the AVs came to play last night too!

Doesn't look like I'm getting it until next week which is fine since I do a lot of quality listening driving to/from work...

Doc - very happy to see you here. Every time I think of April 71, I think of all the great shows you have sent my way over the years. Glad you are well!

and of course, keeping with tradition, now that the release is starting to hit everyone's mailbox it's time to guess the next one. I say Dec 79!

They have done this before.. I think someone, perhaps KeithFan?? has a handle on re-ordering them using some software package.

Agree it's not ideal, but first world problems. I am more interested in getting the music. Got my shipping order last night, the arrival date is not yet in the system. 1970, what a pivotal year.. Bring it! I think one day we will get 9/19 and 9/20.

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Submitted by CaseyJanes on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 08:17

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Grate to hear from you Doc and glad to hear you are doing well. I will have to scan the 71 catalogue for gaps...are there any recent upgrades from 71 that you are aware of?

Bolo...glad to see you are back from your interstellar galactic travels and as cryptic as ever. Maybe you could at least tell us where to find one of those chrono synclastic infundibulum things you’ve been riding around in/on. I spent the whole morning searching Amazon, eBay and Craigslist...cant even find a used one...WTF?!?!

Anyways, finally got my shipping notice today and was saddened to learn that without the infundibulum thing, I will probably have to wait until tomorrow for my subscription copy of Daves 30...I have stalled out on Europe 72 for now. Stuck back on 04/26...but I did give a listen last night to 04/27/85 that Sixtus called out the other day...fun show with lots of 80s energy, and a cool setlist. Also busted out 05/05/77 New Haven...love the Sugaree in this one, but the highlight for me is Peggy-O...Phil’s base seems to be especially Grate in this one as well.

Peace all...please play it loud today...maybe I’ll catch a tune!

KCJ

Edit: Bonus Disc problems. I was hoping for the Morning Dew, but not surprised. Am surprised about possible reordering?....seems odd
Double edit: never mind on the Dew...found it...track listing on my phone has it in the same line as The Monkey and the Engineer so I missed it...:

Daves 31 guess: would love some 79...think it’s been a while? would also like to see some 82 or 85. Also think we are due for something from the 90s.

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Submitted by Slow Dog Noodle on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 08:43

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As we wait for these Fillmore shows...

The 30 trips 1986 show is from this date at the Cal Expo center. I love the eclectic set-list on this one.

And check out 5-3-87 at the Frost: https://archive.org/details/gd87-05-03.sbd.hinko.18848.sbeok.shnf/gd198…

The soundboard is really clear and there are a couple cool moments in the first set. Brent preforms a rousing version of Little Bunny Foo Foo as Bob is plagued by technical issues. looking forward to jamming the second set at work and hoping Dave's 30 hits the mailbox this weekend.

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Submitted by Carry On Grate… on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 09:03

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Blimely that was quick!

I have received mine in the UK today. It usually takes at least a couple of weeks to arrive here.

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Submitted by icecrmcnkd on Fri, 05/03/2019 - 09:17

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Thats how a DaP30 got to the UK so fast.

My shipping notice didn’t have a tracking number, but UPS sent me an email saying that I have a package coming tomorrow.

Song reordering?
Same thing a year ago. Took me quite a while to undo the damage. It’s not as simple as reordering the songs on the computer because, at least on last year’s release, tuning for the next song was appended to the end of the previous track, and so has to be edited. Very annoying.
Hope they didn’t screw that up again this year.

What’s up Doc?
Glad you’re doing well.

Great news for you that you got the latest installment in the Dave's series so quickly. I would have to agree with the "leave the setlist flow as originally played alone" criticism. That is as they say: A No Brainer.

Stoltzy - I'm here with you my man. Pouring one out for Ole' Chewbacca - RIP Peter Mayhew.

Heya Doc. Glad to see you are good.

I am happy with the Bonus disc, but I am feeling VGuy's displeasure for No Cumberland....pouring one out for you too, homey.

Sixtus

I hear you icecreamkid on the DaP 26 bonus reordering, I normally would have edited out all the tuning and teases, but just stuck ordering it correctly and trying to ignore when that Tennessee Jed tease goes somewhere else (I think that was the most prominent one) but I honestly don't listen to the 12/14 part of that Pick as much. Not because of that, but because the 11/17 portion is sooooooo much better to me, and the setlists are so very similar, so I can't get myself to listen to those back to back again like I did when it first arrived, and I usually listen to 11/17 then move on to another era. Since I mainly listen on a USB drive in the car, I'll reorder 1/2 and 1/3 accordingly, but I may take the time to do those edits this time around, because I think this one will get more consistent play of both shows. Or all 4 shows, however you wanna look at it.

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