Grateful Dead

Hello again,I do not want to reiterate the words and sentiments previously posted regarding the change from downloadable to streaming-only music in this section. However, I do want to address the "recent" discovery that people were downloading the music. If my post on June 4th is not clear that I was (and obviously others were) downloading and making personal copies of the music you were making available, I do not know what you would consider a clear indication of such. To now come back and say this is/was a recent discovery is ludicrous. I agree that hope should be held out for future improvement, but it is simply wrong to lie to us about what you knew and when you knew it.

I guess I came off sounding like a self-righteous, arrogant and precious little shit in my last post. I have loved the Taper's Section. It had exposed me to so much music that I am so grateful to have heard. There's so much stuff on my hard disk that I haven't heard yet. I can say for sure that if my hearing all this stuff has accomplished anything, it is to make me want to hear much, much more. David, thank you for all you have provided since November 27 last year. It's been a rare and special treat for all of us each week. As many have said, it's not that the music was necessarily hard to get or unique, or even in some cases, all that great per se, it's that it was exciting and really rekindled a lot of people's interest. I hope you aren't disheartened by the last week. Please keep it up. I'll keep listening I'll also keep buying, if you guys want my business. I guess my gripe in my last post was that I felt like I was being blamed for all this. A weird position for a customer to be in.

I thought these were bones to download and save.I dug it and bragged about it to my Dylan/Zep/Who/Zappa/Stones freak friends.

intended for streaming only? as has been said here a million times - whatever. if that was truly the case you guys are clueless. i say the in the nicest way possible knowing you really aren't. as if people wouldn't download the stuff. i only noticed the taper's section a month ago and i have to that say that i was completely taken back when i saw that files were sitting there to be download. what a brilliant way to generate interest in future releases. i'm not sure that it says much about they way the Grateful Dead's ship is being steered when i was so surprised by the apparent generosity. oh well. not to worry - i will still continue to sink my money into your products. anyway, anyone having problem with the QuickTime streams on Windows it seems that you need version 7 and therefore must be running XP or Vista. I tried versions 4 through 6.5 on Windows Me with no success. Version 7 on XP works just fine.

I'm in the third stage of my reaction to David's explanation for the switch from mp3s to streaming whatevers. First stage: laughter. Like everybody else, I was expecting some kind of an explanation, but nothing as ludicrous as this. As other posters have noted, downloading is what you do with mp3s. I didn't even know you could listen to an mp3 without downloading it. If you post these things in mp3 format, you simply have to expect that people are going to download them--I can't believe that wasn't the original intent, and to suggest otherwise strikes me as just silly. Second stage: commiseration. One of the posters in last week's Taper's Section forum speculated that the switch may have been the result of a threat of legal action from the copyright holder of one of the many covers the band played. I was slow to believe that could have been the case (it seemed much more likely to me that this was a decision dictated by Rhino's accounting department), but now I'm not so sure. This week's explanation sounds an awful lot to me like an attempt to create plausible deniability. "We never intended for people to download these, and as soon as we realized they were downloading them, we took them off--so don't sue us." If that's the case, then I feel sorry for David for having to put his name to what others elsewhere have called (and I agree with them) a "disingenuous" statement. (Note to self: am I blowing the plausible deniability by writing this? Hmm. Well, see stage no. 3 below.) Third stage: not exactly anger, but maybe a state of miffedness. As Little Ben Clock noted, this explanation essentially blames a few bad fans for ruining things--like somebody peed in the pool. But, again, how are you supposed to play an mp3 without downloading it? There may be a way, and maybe some people even know about it--I'm hardly an expert at computers--but then neither are most of us that use the site, I think--anyway, to judge from the comments so far, I'd say that most of us who actually listened to the Taper's Section did it by downloading. It wasn't "certain fans," as the statement goes--it was most of us. And how were we supposed to know we weren't supposed to download them? No statement was ever made to that effect. On the contrary, I think we all, quite reasonably, assumed that since they were posted as mp3s, we were being invited to download them. By pointing this out, am I weakening the plausible deniability? I'm not sure I care, because I don't like being blamed for this. Taking the mp3s away with only a perfunctory notice and no immediate explanation was antisocial enough, but actually blaming this on the fans seems downright hostile. And (as has been pointed out over and over again) this attitude can't be good for business. I've bought at least 90% of the Dead's official releases so far, studio, live, CD, download, whatever--do you really want to drive people like me away? Blaming us for doing what we didn't know we weren't supposed to do is a good way to do it. Anyway, I more or less believe that David wrote this under some sort of coercion (whether from a threatened lawsuit or just outraged accountants), so I still don't blame him. And in fact I've disagreed (silently) with the vitriol that's been on display from some posters this last week: losing the mp3s was a disappointment, but there was no call to get nasty toward David Gans, GDP, or even Rhino. As fans we weren't being exactly mistreated...but blaming us for this is a different story. That, I don't like.

After re-reading the comments, I agree that David has probably signed his name to something the lawyers wrote up. I do not believe that he was ignorant to our downloading addictions, and in fact I think he carefully tried to give us as many pieces of his favorite shows as he thought he could get away with without attracting attention. He understands the thousands upon thousands of dollars that I, for one, have spent on tickets and merchandise. Not anymore, sorry.

David/Rhino: "Hey Deadheads. It's raining."Deadheads: "No. That's you peeing on our legs."

SAD I think i´m NOT gonna buy anything from Rhino . Mp3´s were very cool , streaming sucks , i´m sorry Mr.Lemieux that´s the truth , thank you for the coments on all previous downloads , i enjoyed them . Peace

That's quite possibly the most ridiculous explanation I have ever heard. You didn't think people would download the mp3s and just realized they were doing so after almost a year? That doesn't even pass the laugh test. You folks don't think much of us, do you?

That's interesting... none of the streams work this week. When I investigate further (i.e.: reveal the source URL's for the streams in order to play them on my WinMedia Player), I get the following:

Sorry, the content you have requested could not be found or has been intentionally disabled by the content owner. Please contact the content owner if you have any further questions about this content.

404 File Not Found

www.akamai.com Copyright ©2006 Akamai Technologies, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Sigh.... It just never ends, does it? Oh, and David, that "excuse" about "streaming" mp3's.... puh-leeze! There are ways of embedding mp3's so that they stream only, for casual listening. For downloading, any mp3 can be accessed for downloading, through various standard mouse techniques. All mp3's are designed for downloading, not streaming (though as I said, it can be done). Rhino is playing you, buddy.

I know that Jerry loved his BMW's and the band made alot of money ,,but one of the things that made The Grateful Dead so special was that they didnt try to bleed every possible nickel ot of their fans.....I do hope Rhino does have something special planned

My thought was there's so much music in the Vault we could never hear it all. After hearing say 2 tunes from an 80's show. Then sell the whole show... The 2 tunes could be used as samples... In 74' they sent me 45's one of the songs was Turn On The Bright lights, Another selection was from from Hunter.. I' m lucky ,I have a band that I play in (ODYSSEY). So I spend most of my time performing, Writing, Rehearsing,and Hangin with my friends... If you can, watch the interview with Jerry from Entertainment Tonight in vegas, it's on YOUTUBE. I'll let jerry speak for us, about the kind of people we are... suffice to say, No explanation about the switch would have been better then the one offered There was a time when the GD was my whole world Thankfully not anymore Peace Paul

The stream are not working because the source streams cannot be found. All I get is a 404, when I click on the stream source URL.

Sorry, the content you have requested could not be found or has been intentionally disabled by the content owner. Please contact the content owner if you have any further questions about this content.

404 File Not Found

www.akamai.com Copyright ©2006 Akamai Technologies, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

tj crowley i've enjoyed the ability to download and assumed that was the intent as you permitted access to...i've switched around dates/shows to create my own preference's re: seque's, mood, tone, memories. going to the streaming only was/is not an option for me. not permitted while at work and at home between a 32yo daughter, 21yo son and 10 boy thee's no access for me there either. but, i thank you for the priviledge to having been able to. i (and i'm sure all other) had/have no intention(s) of selling or even trading. why trade when all you need to do is infor of where access is(was). thankyou again. i was concerned initially when last weeks posting was available as the usual time thinking something had happened to you, glad your ok (and back). am sad to not be able to download tho but..what is, is

round and round I don't download but the player doesn't work consistently for me and I don't dew Quiktime. Why Who about quiktime? Is that an Apple product or something? I Dew Windows, well, i try to anyway.

is that a bunch of stoned hippies built the GD organization into a musical juggernaut and now a bigger group of big business record label "pros" are running it into the ground. It's a perfect example of how record companies don't understand the market and who their customers are. No wonder they're hemorrhaging money.

What a f**kup! Now, streams don't even work. Vus noch? (Ask your Bubbeh)I'm going back to work.

One man gathers, what the vault spills.truly very sorry, JurassicBlueberries

DL2's explanation should be more than enough for any and all of us. More than a few deadheads have known DL2 for several years, and we know him to be a good and honorable man. I trust him, and I encourage all of you to trust him. Some of you were around when the "hush tapes" were very quietly circulated back in the previous century. We kept them "hushed" because we knew that if we made a big deal about it then people on the inside would lose access, lose their jobs, or at least get a savage chewing out from tptb. The result: as we quietly shared music quite literally all around the world the entitlement crowd shouted "hoarders" and "elitists," even when they were on the trees and vines. As they shouted, mostly online, some of the people who were sharing music with us got their backsides in a sling. As David Gans has noted, "the enemy is listening." Back in the 1990s they even scanned gd news groups and forums, checking to see if anything got shared. Deadheads on the inside got hurt because people on the outside would not stop shouting "gimmie more more more." And so please, my friends, calm down and be a bit more careful what you say and where you say it. The enemy is still listening. We may still lose a great deal. Jace --- ethics is using free will to choose good over evil ---

Oregon Field Trip

Seems to me that y'all could afford to throw us a few bones now and then just to keep some goodwill going on. Who do you think buys the music and all the GD shirts and hats in your store? I've been a DeadHead since 1967 and I make at least a couple of purchases a year for myself and I tell my friends and relatives to go to your site when they want to buy me a Birthday or Christmas present every year. So what is it that you think you are losing by shutting down the downloads of the Tapers selections? Could be you are losing my future business and I'll bet I'm not the only one who feels this way. Oh well, have a Grateful Day anyway.

it's painfully obvious to me that David didn't write that statement, and I feel bad for him to have to be the public face of this mess. when i go to the bakery, and they give me a sample of something to try, it doesn't make me not want to buy something too. same thing applies here. anyone who believes that these mp3's were going to cut into their revenues doesn't understand this business - but especially this market segment - the Deadhead community - at all. i won't bother repeating what has already been said about mp3's, we all know their degraded quality is not what we're all interested in. pity TPTB at Rhino obviously don't get it. after all these years, it's mind boggling to me. never a good idea in any business to bite the hand that feeds you. never a good idea in any business to try to make up for it later with an explanation that is so lame nobody buys it.

Seriously -- are these streams working at all? For anybody? I can't get them to work no matter what I do.

Sucks to work for a big corporation. Spin is e-v-i-l. At least they could have written up something plausible. Speculation on this board last week was more believable than this explanation. I'll be trying the stream now....hope it works.

Duh!!!! If I sample some "free/tasty" food in the grocery isle, and I like it, I probably will buy the package.

Oh, boy!I love a good soap opera! ;-) Now, I can't even access the player window! This just get's worse and worse! I'll let the web boffins figure it out. I'll be back tonight, when hopefully, it will have all been solved. I'm just shaking my head at the incompetance!

One click streaming working on my 'pute.

I know, I know. It's all about the dollar. No free lunch. I must say, however, that the reason The Dead as an institution is/was so successful, was the unrivaled access to the music and the band. While other bands were whining about people enjoying their music for free, The Dead promoted it. Consequently, more people were exposed, more fans when to more concerts, and everyone bought everything offically and unofficially released. Complimentary MP3s is actually a brilliant idea. It keeps us all connected and re-energizes people to play more Dead music. Then, when something like Live at the Cow Palace gets released, we all buy it. Economics is a fishey business to begin with, but The Dead proved long ago that a free taste will generate a butt-load of money. I encourage the powers that be in the Taper's Section to GET BACK ON THE BUS. Us Deadheads ain't dead enough yet to recognize a good idea becoming a bad one! Cheers!

David-Thank you for doing what you could before the man caught on... I will treasure the tapers section mp3's that I did download, but the streaming just doesn't fit in with my life/schedule. But no biggie! There's plenty of good things that don't fit in with my schedule! I'm sorry that I was such a bad person and downloaded those mp3's and put them on my ipod and enjoyed them... Luckily I'm a recovering Catholic, so guilt is something that I can relate to... I plan on punishing myself later for my downloading atrocities. Is it wrong to listen to the taper's section mp3's while I punish myself for the downloading of said files? hmmmm.... Meanwhile, I'm afraid the taper's section is closed for me. I would echo the sentiments of a couple of other poster though: I will happilly pay $5 a month for the right to download these little gems, even in lossy format! toodles- neddles

New messages posted to this forum should be placed above older ones. Otherwise, the messages we see on page one are those from the people who get up earliest. Yikes!

. . . of downloading. But David L's an accomplice. I emailed him on 12 December 2006 and said, "there seems to be a problem with this week's download.". I compounded my admission of guilt by telling him on 10 April this year, "I've not played all that I've downloaded yet, though hope to remedy that in the coming weeks . . ." And I know that David read my messages because he kindly replied and left my original messages in his replies. So, where does that leave us? BTW, Little Ben Clock in Australia you didn't come across as self-righteous in your original post today. No, when I read your message I thought, "Wow, I wish I could have written that sort of stuff when I was 23" (and that ain't meant to sound patronising). Email me at chris AT live-dead DOT co DOT uk for info about other Aussie heads if you'd like to hook up with them. CJ (in the UK)

Don't play us for fools. The whole d*mn mess with mp3's from the very beginning was that people wouldn't stop downloading them. I think the pressure came down when someone over Rhino (or more like Whino) crunched some numbers on the downloads and realized they could be making money. Now the mp3's you've been offering are hardly polished sound files. This is the last straw. I stood by while the Live Internet Music Archive went dark, I stood by while gdlive.com dissappeared. And now the Taper's section is a shadow of it's former self. I own every possible official release from the dead. Spending thousand's of dollars for a dead man's tones. I have a few hundred gigs of shows in digital format and a couple tower's of tapes. Yet I still continued to keep up with recent releases as a practicing audiophile. Not no more. You're trying to be graceful with a disgraceful act. I'm going back to trading. As my cousin Vinny once said, "I've got no furthur use for this guy."

Jace wrote: > As David Gans has noted, "the enemy is listening." I didn't say that. It was a sticker that Jerry had on his guitar in '76-77. Someone else made reference to it in last week's topic, and I made a meta-comment about it. If you're going to parse this sad thrash to death, at least be accurate about it. GD Hour blog Station list

------------------------------On August 24th, 2007 David Gans posted a statement that read, in part: "I don’t have a lot of information at the moment, and it’s not my place to make a public statement about it in any case, but I can assure you it’s a good deal more complicated than it might appear." ------------------------------ On August 27th, 2007 David Lemieux posted a statement that read, in part: "Recently, I and others that work on dead.net became aware that certain fans had been regularly downloading the tracks offered in the Taper Section. From the very beginning, this program has always been intended to be a "for streaming only" service. Downloading was never announced, described or promoted in any manner." ------------------------------ Mr. Gans - it does appear that your assurance that the reason behind the format change was 'a good deal more complicated than it might [have initially] appear[ed]' has finally come to fruition. Thank you for providing us with a whole new meaning to the word 'complicated.'

To David, Grateful Dead Productions, and the folks at Rhino, In weeks past when explaining your selections and their sources you refered to the fact, and on several occasions I might add, that many recordings in the vault were "un-releasable." your quote regarding a selection for the May 21-28 tapers section "This is drawn from the cassette master, and is included partly to demonstrate the limitations of many recordings from this era (and partly because it’s really, really good). As you can hear, the mix on the tape just isn’t very good, and is typical of many of the 1980s-era board cassettes. So, despite the fact that the vault holds many soundboard master cassettes from this era, many are un-releasable due to mix issues. It’s unfortunate, but in cases like this, the music can certainly shine through and provide a pleasurable listen." So I ask, what is the harm of allowing us to download something that in your words will never be released.The music in doing no good to anybody by gathering dust on the archive shelves. After all you are going to the trouble to make your selections and post them. Might as well get this "un-releasable" music out there for the people that love it to enjoy. Makes me wonder why all that "un-releasable" stuff was ever taken down at archive.org. What a shame this is. Rhino is walking on thin ice these days with these ongoing short sighted decisions. Why on earth GD ever handed over the vault to Rhino in the first place, when they lack even the most simple understanding of the Dead Head community,I will never know. Despite Rhino and there shortcomings I thank you David for your past and future efforts in trying to get this music out - Peter

pathetic explanation, I'm come to the conclusion that dead.net's management has fallen into the hands of Dick Cheney's legal team. This sort of tortured reasoning couldn't have come from anywhere else.

As if we needed things any worse... My fault on the windows media files. My apologies. They forgot to be uploaded. No excuses, that's the plain and simple truth. They have been uploaded and should be working. Feel free to post any more technical difficulties. Regards, -pat

I listened to the streams and enjoyed them immensely, but when it came time for Sugaree to play it wasn't there! Oh, well, thank you David. You're efforts are greatly appreciated.

I used to look forward to downloading the MP3s each week and listening to them at work. I don't have the bandwidth or time to stream at home and I can't stream at work so I guess I'll never get to hear the new postings. At least Rhino has a few projects in the works for us to look forward to. I certainly wish the MP3s come back someday though.

Glad the not-streaming files was an easy fix Pat! thanks for speaking up here, too.

tj crowley part of my problem (and this is just a small portion of the whole) is that 1 work does not permit such animal 2 no access at home due to family dynamics and 3 if i were to be able to i'd find it difficult to (not just because of my computor limitations) because of time. i prefer to listen on my terms (ie; car) rather than someone else's. i never did enjoy/get into video's because of restriction (need to sit and watch) so adding this deminsion to listenning is just as restrictive. how can anyone just sit a listen to poor quality speakers....don't get it

"...and it's one in ten thousand that comes for the show..." What strikes me after reading the previous comments is the tremendous sense of entitlement that exists within this community. Was this a poorly thought-out decision? Hell yes! Is it reason to never buy official product, boycott the Dead or give David abuse? Hell no! Believeing that you are entitled to free mP3's is the same attitude we saw with people who jumped fences, etc. to get into shows and ruin the scene. So perhaps, like the young Deadheads who followed us onto the Bus, who we taught just as others taught us, we need to treat Rhino like a newbie. Show them the ropes through the positive examples of our behavior, not through negativity and anger. Show them that if they throw us a few free samples, we'll still buy the real product when it arrives. And most of all, don't focus your anger at David, because he is certainly not behind all this. And to the good folks at Rhino, I'm not getting any younger and there's a slew of stuff I want to hear. So would you be so kind as to step-up the schedule of releases. Thanks! namaste

To me, listening to The Grateful Dead has been, is, and always will be an honor and a privilege, and not a RIGHT. So, I will continue to be happy to listen to anything that you are willing to share with us, no matter what the format. Thank you for your efforts.

"Believeing that you are entitled to free mP3's is the same attitude we saw with people who jumped fences, etc. to get into shows and ruin the scene." This is a non sequitur if I've ever seen one. If would be one thing if people were asserting their right to have something for free that everyone else pays for (like access to a concert), but these were free recordings offered to everyone for download (I utterly reject the assertion they were meant for streaming only, as no statement to that effect was ever made; indeed, they were not streamable files). The mp3s were provided for months, then suddenly revoked for no apparent reason until we were given a breathtakingly flimsy explanation this morning. I think the anger around here is less the result of a feeling of entitlement than one resulting from a lack of respect for the fans who keep this organization in the red. I think if a reason were provided when the mp3s were removed last week, the backlash would be less severe than what we've seen. There would certainly be angry outbursts from some folks, but I suspect most people would be somewhat appreciative of an honest explanation from GDP. The good faith gesture would have gone a long way. Instead we've been jerked around and treated less like loyal fans than disposable and replaceable consumers who are unworthy of respect and appreciation. "So perhaps, like the young Deadheads who followed us onto the Bus, who we taught just as others taught us, we need to treat Rhino like a newbie." When Rhino leased the vault contents from GDP, the word was that committed fans were taking stewardship of something they knew was a valuable commodity with an enormous fanbase eager to hear more of it, and pay to do so. Instead, what we've seen has been totally inept management of one of rock musics greatest treasure troves by a bunch of corporate hacks. Rhino is not an organization that wants to be part of the Grateful Dead's fanbase community. As such, they would not be responsive to the "lead by example" advice that you suggest. They simply don't care and believe being Rhino means never have to say you're sorry. I hope one day they will see how horribly they have mishandled the vault. It's a travesty.

"I think the anger around here is less the result of a feeling of entitlement than one resulting from a lack of respect for the fans who keep this organization in the red" That should be "in the black." Duh.

Thanks for everything, I hope this does not cost you your job.

Thanks Dave For Another Fine Selection.To Bad 9-6-80 Is Not In The Vault.Keep Up The Good Work.Don't Let The Whiners Bring You Down.Also A Question.Does 6-11-69 Happen To Be In The Vault?Would Love To Hear The Boys Do Wabash Cannonball.Would Be A Nice Treat.Here's The Set List.Haven't Come Across It In The Trading Circles. 06/11/69 California Hall - San Francisco, CA Set 1: Let It Be Me Silver Threads Mama Tried Cathy's Clown Me And My Uncle Slewfoot Dire Wolf Games People Play The Race Is On Green Green Grass Of Home Set 2: Tiger By The Tail I've Just Seen A Face All I Have To Do Is Dream Wabash Cannonball Railroading Across The Great Divide Hope You See This But Understand If You Don't With All The Whiners Bitchin In This Thread. P.S...To The Mods Can You Place A Forum Thread For The Whiners To Bitch At,So Folks Who Come Here To Enjoy The Music Can Comment On Dave's Selection's Without Having To Deal With All These Me,Me,More,More People.Thanks. "Fuck 'people's music'." laughs Jerry Garcia from a reclining seat in the plush, wood-finished business offices of the band. "I mean, I thought it was a dumb discussion even when it was the big thing awhile back to talk about how music should be free... that music belongs to the people and musicians rip them off. That kind of thing really irks me.

hey david dont ruin your credibility by telling us about your long term plan for streaming. thats a lie. you know what time of day it is. so the less you say the better david. first it was live archive, then dead net. hope you dont come to my house and check my bootlegs for copyrights. you guys, including you david,screwed up. just admit it and take your criticism like a man. your new site was righteous not anymore. its just a wounded bird trying to fly again.