• 8,102 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • marye
    Joined:
    Bolo!
    Good to see you.
  • bolo24
    Joined:
    Incognito pick?

    2/23/93 - Mardi Gras with Ornette Coleman. Our group of friends had a float in the parade (kind of a long story). Our "Acme Krewe" was listed at the bottom of the poster for that show.

    As usual, I will categorically deny posting here today.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    You had to be there

    Really,
    Unless you were there, you’ll never fully grasp this show. (Toga 84)
    One of our best GD experiences, right up there with Oxford 88!
    In a word: ELECTRIC! The weather, crowd, vibe, cannot KNOW this show without all that.
    The Dancin in the Streets is pretty much the theme song for this show.
    Started the day before and didn’t stop until the next day.
    (I’ll share some more stories separately)
    Yeah the vocals are ragged on Dancin, but have been on every show opener on this tour so far. Dire Wolf has a little cocaine gargle but it’s not that bad?
    Minglewood is off the fuggin charts! Seriously, (besides Bobs slide solo going on to long and the unfortunate mandatory screaming badger being tortured noise) it’s a monster! And from there things just keeps on growing.
    Wonderland was good, but polite, which makes sense considering national radio coverage in two countries along with very pricey tickets (Seva Benefit).
    City Isle started out ruff, but creeped to where I felt the Drumz onward was good, but,…, but Toga…Insane!
    I’m sure the environment/vibe/energy or what not was so intense the band would have felt it, probably before arrival lol
    And they sure seemed to rise to it: going hard for it and having just as much fun as us, well, almost lol. Not only could you feel it, you could see they were way into it!
    I think the only critique I can make about this show was, too much energy. They were so jacked up on the vibe (on top of everything else; ) that at times I think over enthusiasm led to not always being just exactly perfect. Hard to describe, they generally played well, just not so perfect, if that makes sense?
    I’m onto Blossom currently, the third show we hit that summer, and so far it’s ok, but..kinda laid back after the opening volley of tour ragers.
    Oh, yeah, Merriweather I rehashed and they’re similar: start out ragged, but look out, the rocket lifts off and burns baby burns. Again, hot but excess sometimes perhaps leads to occasional less than perfect moments, but good shows if not RJ. Summer tour 84,
    Onward!

    Can’t imagine those shows on a bike. The rain was what helped make both those shows so fun, but in 85 by the next day we’d had enough, (even before Hershey lol) and we weren’t on bikes! But hey, the adversity usually helped make good shows great!

    Edit: added my story to the 6/24/84 show page if anyones interested.

  • Obeah
    Joined:
    Hershey!

    Doc you were there? I normally don't spend time feeling envious, but this is one of those shows where I sure wish I coulda been there. After all these years it is still a show I'll listen to any day, any time. There's something for everyone: Weir was absolutely on, Healy with his bag of tricks, Phil on mad bombing runs (and that Tom Thumb's!!), drummers on point all night long, Brent so colorful and out in front (and just a demon on the organ), and I run out of superlatives to talk about Garcia's performance this day.

  • dmcvt
    Joined:
    For Jim: Airto's Killer Bees

    Hey Jim, no question, play Airto Moreira and the Gods of Jazz recordings Killer Bees, or Revenge of the Killer Bees. Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Stanley Clarke early fusion, like Weather Report but different, very interesting, under the radar stuff. For treatment, instead of toxic spray, Dr. Bronners peppermint castille in cool water, soak that nest from safe distance with a hose end sprayer on a cold morning . Bees, wasps etc hate peppermint and soap being surfactant, gets under their exoskeletal shells. Once the nest is soaked a time or two, they will abandon.

  • Forensicdoceleven
    Joined:
    I have jumped off a balcony from the second floor.......

    Hey hey hey................

    As a certain Mr Pen used to say, "Baby I ain't no balcony hanger!"..........

    The 1985 SPAC show was the only Dead show I ever attended solo. Beautiful day, rode out on the bike, camped out on the lawn, had some green leafy material, just enjoyed the heck out of the whole experience!

    Early the next morning set out for Hershey. Got soaked on the way, but hey, when you're on a bike and you get soaked, you can't get any wetter. My best friend and my brother---both bikers---were supposed to ride down and met me there and we'd ride back together. LOL they chickened out. It rained, but we kept the blow dry. Another enjoyable and noteworthy experience..........

    Rode back solo the next day, those were the days!

    Rock on!!!

    Doc, paperwork day!
    Youth has no age.....

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    New One For Me

    So why not.. SPAC 84 virgin listen.

    They played the beginning of the City Island show the day before on Today in GD History. I think I have one cursory listen a couple decades ago when I discovered Archive.Org. Jerry's voice is a big haggard on a few songs (thinking Peggy-O for example), which seems to continue on through to SPAC.

    SPAC is one of my many GD regrets. I never made it there and could have. I am particularly fond of the 85 show. Now which one of you was dangling from the balcony that night? never mind.. you'll never admit it, but you know who you are.

    Got a medium size hornets nest in my attic that needs to go before while summer is young. I think my attic fan is shot too. The exterminator is charging too damned much so I am going to brave this adventure tonight. Wish me luck (balanced with how much could it really hurt anway).

    What should I play for the dancing bees 🐝 to give me an edge? A good meltdown space, a rockin' Fire in the attic or Dancing in the Hive?

    Edit: Jerry's a little rough or Dire Wolf but recovered nicely by the time the Candayman came around. Similar to the rough start the night before but improving, apparently, as the night progressed.

    Edit 2: Finished this while cleaning the house. They did pick up steam as the night progressed. Vocals notwithstanding, a high energy Bertha helped pull things together, the highlight for me being the PITB>China Doll. The Other One was typical for the era but good, a soulful Wharf Rat reigned them back to the finish line with a well paired double encore that would a smile on anyone's face as they walked through gates realizing they have no idea where they left their car (or bike).. but who really cares anyway.

    Nice tales from the Road Doc. Creates a little visual and context for the listen.

  • Forensicdoceleven
    Joined:
    In this bright future you can't forget your past.....

    Morning rockers!!!

    Can it really be 40 years ago that we stood in the rain at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center and enjoyed a fun Dead show, rain and all?!! Got drenched on the motorcycle ride down from Canada, but we kept our doses dry. Those were the days!!!

    Decent soundboards are out there, worth a listen.......

    We should not look back unless it is to derive useful lessons from past errors, and for the purpose of profiting by dearly bought experience.....

    Rock on,

    Doc
    One must always maintain one's connection to the past and yet ceaselessly pull away from it.......

  • uncle_tripel
    Joined:
    City Island...

    ...yeah, 2 hour drive to harrisburg listening to the newly taped FM broadcast of WONDERLAND of CANADA show and ready for a great afternoon in the sun, several friends (3 car loads) would plan to meet, one car "alabama toot-away", one car packed with coolers of cold beer, another car "up in smoke". walking through the city enroute to the bridge to take us into the middle of the river, hey look over there at that guy passed out under the tree, damn he sure does look like our friend Chumpweed...keep walking, he would never miss Garcia by over indulging in the early afternoon. Next day, everyone safely back in town and meeting up at a friend's apartment to rap about the show...hey Chumpweed, what did you think of the show? ah, man I passed out under a tree and missed the whole show.....

    I remember most the opener: toot-away, a fun tmns to end 1st set, eyes, black peter, gdtrfb; and yeah it was a speedy GOGD event, and most unique venue to have seen the band.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    If We'd Have Timed This Better

    They might have been talking about worm farming on the last GD Bulletin

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

I wonder what they'll call this summer in the future?

Anyhow I'm grooving on some '67 Dead, thinkin' I need to check out 11/10/67 at the Shrine.

It's got a Potato too!

New Potato Sunday?

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so for the first time in a long time, i wandered into the land of that early Holy Grail in the Dicks Picks series - DP Vol. 4. Fillmore East 2/13-14/70.
i cannot believe what a beautiful recording this is. in all ways. Stunning. Thank You Bear.
My '67 / '68 Dead listening is cyclical. think i'm going to be entering its gravitational pull very soon. always love a New Potato.

Spotlight for the announcer please..

This Ain’t A Show It’s a Party

Glorious Sunday Morning.

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so clean and balanced, detailed and nuanced

an astonishing audio document

shall we go, while we can?

Finished with the 2/14 Carousel. I was eyeing 11/10 and decided to come inside and check in. Shrine Exposition Hall it is, it's got a new potato.

With a little luck I can pull off my first Brewer Hat Trick.

jumping a couple of eras - new interview with Ned Lagin at Aquarium Drunkard (aquariumdrunkard.com)

https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2020/08/25/ned-lagin-the-aquarium-drunkard…

if you're not familiar with AQ, it will always deliver - fantastic music site

back to Pig - ALL I NEED

Step Right Up and Read The Aquarium Drunkard!

Thanks for the Tip, something fun to read later.

Alright, gotta get out of the house.

Enjoy some good Tunes & Check y'all Laters!

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But Vguy's subliminal 5/21/74 HEC Edmundson drew me in!!! Also been a big fan of the WRS from this show... I like the audience version of this show, but going to listen to the one from PNW box as soon as soon as my Cow Palace encores are done!! Happy Labor day weekend all... bob t

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go cover to cover on DP4 - trust me

just came out on the far side of the caution > feedback > we bid you goodnight, and that whole disc 3 shook loose and rearranged a few neurons

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reaching down to the pile of discs on my right, Hec Edmundson 5/21 was right below the MOFI Garcia and Grisman and so Disc 1 is spinning now and it sounds gorgeous

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So, I did 9/3/72 and I agree with you guys. It probably has the same level of greatness as Veneta but the sound problems are pretty distracting (except for the DicksPicks portion-thank heavens!). It's whet my appetite for another similar show. What do you guys think about the August BCT shows? I've had those shows for decades, but they never struck me as being as magical as Europe 72 or the 9/21-28 run. But some folks on the archive claim just that: that the run is as good as anything in 1972. That the Dark Stars are comparable to Veneta and 4/8/72. That just sounds like crazy talk. No way! But I do think I need to revisit those BCT shows. What do you guys think? Are the BCT shows as mind-blowing as the 9/21-28 run? (seems a bit far-fetched....)

Happy Labor Day!

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I think the August 72 BCT run is prime, add in the October Fox Theatre run and you have my two most desired box sets.

I did finish a cover to cover run of Dicks Picks 4 yesterday cutting outside trim for my windows.. detailed, pain in the ass stuff but it went by almost effortlessly with a little help from excellent weather and great music (and a little help from some edibles).

So today I am in with the Seattle '74 show. Thanks VGuy.. BobT, I might end up shifting into New Years 76/77 if I keep it going...

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In reply to by JimInMD

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I am in with that for sure. 5/21/74!

And yes Vguy, I have also been having a lot of problems with the site, I keep getting the technical difficulties page.

Be well folks!

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You can lose a finger tryin’ to use it..
Bobby Looks at Jerry
Indeed says Jerry.

Gotta love that wicked sense of Humor.
For years I wondered what the hell Bob was talking about, then I finally got the joke when I read that part about him looking at Jerry.
Gift that keeps on giving.
Great stuff, still working through the "Outtakes".
That 2/14/70 Dark Star needs some props, so cool how different they could play it each night.

Let's See BCT '72 or 5/21/74.
Gollum I'd do some BCT '72 stuff what about 8/24?

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Yeah, let's do it! As far as I can tell, there isn't any consensus on which is the better Dark Star or show (8/21 or 8/24). The Dave's Pick 8/25 sounded to me like the hottest show of the run, but maybe that's due to the sound quality. Putting on my critics hat and adding 8/24 to the queue.

Fine Fine Show

Got all the songs and is played real well.
Hot and there’s some deep music here, introspective in parts.
By all means part of the journey to a show like 8/27/72, and so being lives in Veneta’s shadow.

Goes to some dreamy places.
S1 Jack Straw, China > Rider, Birdsong, PITB.
S2 BEW, Truckin’, Dark Star > Morning Dew, Ramble On, UJB
Well worth the travel and the jam songs are full of exploration.

Dark Star moves through some trippy landscapes.
Here, as the music played, a smoke haze began to encompass the area and the wind was whipping.
A hummingbird was flying way up high and then diving quickly down low, repeatedly.
So I got some visuals :)

I liked it.

If I were to complain, which I would never think of doing, it would be about the mix of the vocals out front.
The performance is full of quite and loud dynamics, so the vocals being so prominent isn’t ideal.

That all being said, I’m curious now, how’s that 8/21/72 Dark Star again? Hmmm…

PS - 5/21/74 I’ll get to you! Alas just not today. Your 47 minute PITB will be given the attention it deserves.

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Great write-up GOGD and nice visuals (I dig!). I'm glad to hear you/Jim/VGuy rate this BCT run highly. I've neglected it too long and plan to dig in with a vengeance. I listened to the full show with multiple repeats of PITB and Dark Star. I kept trying to find hints of Veneta in the jamming, but I couldn't hear much similarities. In the fine GD tradition, every jam is unique.

I couldn't help sneaking a listen to the 8/21 Star. That Star seems to me a little more thrilling and visceral, while the 8/24 seems a bit more mellow and reflective, which is fitting since it melts into that great Dew.

I'm looking forward to discovering these shows!

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In reply to by Gollum

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Hope you like them Gollum.

I don't compare them to Veneta, they are just good shows and hopefully will be given the full norman at some point.

I didn't finish Seattle yesterday. Today hopefully I will finish this and move on to what's next.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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I thought you all might find this article interesting. It details this Group's pursuit and acquisition of the Betty Boards.

https://denisonmagazine.com/feature/spring-2019-raising-the-dead/#

Based on this article, ABCD ultimately obtained all the reels from the original three buyers of Betty's storage locker. 780 total. Rhino, it looks like only bought 375 reels. Why not all the reels? Which ones were left out? More mysteries.
Would love to hear from ABCD on this.

I would think they will continue to put out at least two shows per year from this stash. Next up, you would think 5/26/73, Dave's 37 to start out 2021? Mark it GOGD.

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Today's pick, I thought I would fire up 11/14/73, San Diego, from the 30 Trips Box?

Stay well all.

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I wonder why Rhino didnt buy all the tapes? I wonder if they bought 6/17/75, because I would sure buy it, if they would sell it to me, my first show. I wonder if $ 1000 would get you a tape or even get you in the discussion for buying one.

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Let it be known throughout the land, that on eight September 2020, DeadVikes is calling 5/26/73 Kezar Show for the first release of 2021 on the Dave's Picks Series Volume 37.

Nice! I'd buy it :)

Thanks for the article tip on the Betty's I'm digging into that right after I type this nonsense.
And the Warner Hack Letter doesn't sound very encouraging. Boo!

8/21/72 starting off sounding good over here today.
And yeah Gollum, I agree with Jim, not sure these shows can compare to Veneta, but it's fun to listen for those hints of glory. Ultimately 8/24 is a real solid show, but it's missing the X-Factor or whatever it is that takes a show to that Next Level of Upper Echelon Dead. Like you I did some repeated listening to Bird Song, PITB & Dark Star > Morning Dew and it's a cool trip, real thoughtful almost eerie at times. I'd keep listening to those and will try and remember that. Man we're lucky, Gotta love it!

Sounds like some '73 as soon as this Berkeley trip winds down. Dig it.

Alright, gotta go read about the Dead while I listen to the Dead.

Enjoy!

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Interesting stuff.. so if memory serves the average show contains 5 reels.. say 6 for the biggies (Kezar, etc.). so approx. 70 shows in 375 reels??

Some of these shows (many??) are Jerry Band stuff.. hopefully the Garcia Estate is on this too.

Still great news!! I think in addition to tunneling under the vault and freeing the reels we need to find out where these reels are being housed and send in one of our top agents (bolo?, zuck?) to liberate them. I personally am not opposed to taking Norman from his office and putting him to work immediately. We have needs.. we are being repressed!

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....I'm finally getting to 8.24.72. Had a few too many beers yesterday and ordered this.
https://blisslights.com/sky-lite-laser-galaxy-projector/
Totally forgot i did until they sent me an email this morning saying it was shipped. Drunk me apparently thought it looked pretty cool. I trust drunk me......usually.

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In reply to by Vguy72

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That article is Awesome, thanks DV!
Really dug the story and was unaware of ABCD and their role.
Super Cool.
My assumption on the purchase of 260 reels vs the whole shebang would be that the GD already had some of the other shows, and they don't necessarily have rights to the Garcia stuff? possibly. Betty taped her own two track copies of all shows, so in some cases there are Master Reels and Betty Boards I believe.
Anyhow, FWIW there's my heavy duty assumption.
yeah yeah.. it ain't worth the paper it's written on, and in cyberspace, even less.
But shit, what else you gonna do.

VGUY - That shit is dope! I wonder can you film the projection? You're definitely gonna get some good visuals.
Nice work Drunk You!

8/21/72 is super sweet so far, just went through PITB and it's Mighty Fine, from a different place than 8/24 fo sure.
BTW on 8/21/72 shnid=139581 has a weird repeated section in Stella Blue at 3:00 that is not on shnid=150 JSYK and don't have to dick around wondering what is going on. Like I just did. It's a sweet early Stella and there should be no repeated sections ;)

Good Stuff!

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I went crazy on Real Gone Music today and haven't had one yet today :-)

Just a FYI - Real Gone Music has a big sale going on right now on cd's,,,, I think at the end of the month it will be vinyl.

They had quite a chunk of road trips.

I found enough to piss a chunk of money away. Who would have thought I'd need a copy of the Supremes doing the Funny Girl soundtrack!?!

5/26/73: being three sets I’m guessing that’s not gonna fit on three discs, but probably would fit with the bonus disc..though don’t feel he’d do just one show like that? Seems like it’s a good way to use partials, and still think they’ll do some kind of summer 73 box at some point, but of course that’s ass talk....

VGUY: sweeettttt! That might be perfect for my music room? Definitely needs some research...
Oh, and #$*&$ the Stars! Go Knights!

Sorry, been a free range listener lately. After the fun Alpine 87 run, no dead for a brief respite...today been going primal;
- 7/3/66
- first album bonus stuff
- 11/10/67 again!
- 3/17/68 again!

Thinking bout that 11/14/73 later,
and tomorrow because;
A) it’s due, and
B) it’s supposed to snow so I’m thinking DP 28 from chilly February 73 will be apropos...

Oh, didn’t get to 8/24/72 yet, been meaning to carve out time for that whole run, but did go with Dap 24 yesterday.
Overall great, jam is awesome, but I remember thinking then as now that it’s not necessarily in my useless opinion a “top” show?? Need to hear the 21&24 Dark Stars fo sure though! Perhaps I’ll have time later this week to do the whole run?

DV: thanks for the cool article. Knew about ABCD etc, but this sheds more light on this very interesting topic.
Guessing perhaps some reals were in such poor condition and/or not complete, or like Jim said already in vault so not worth the price? Like Oak island, every clue seems to add more questions?

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....I'll post a review once I test it out. BTW. I got it at the guitar center website. $10 bucks cheaper. Apparently, drunk me knows a deal when he sees one. (pats myself on the back).

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Just put it on!!! Looking forward to it... for some reason i play Waterbury and Dijon more from 30 Trips... mmmm don't know why... I love Kezar 5/26/73, one of my first Betty's back in 88... I still think we get a "May 73 box" Des Moines, Santa Barbara and Kezar, someday.... All 3 set shows... I don't know if you can fit them each on 3 CD's.. This is the time of year when Weather Report Part 1 starts to take on a deeper meaning....... be good all... bob t

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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Location:
1090 Page San Francisco, CA

Charging admission of fifty cents, Helms (Chet) began that summer to host free-for-all jams. It took little more than rumor to draw capacity crowds to the basement sessions. A chubby biker-type blues singer called Pigpen, who played with a band somewhere down the peninsula, hung back one night in the crowd, just watching.
- Joel Selvin (Chapter - Summer 1965 / excerpt from Summer of Love)

A lot was about to happen in San Francisco shortly after that and Pigpen would go on to become legend.

Hearts of Summer held in trust
Still tender, young and green

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Would love to see the full list of shows Rhino actually purchased from ABCD. I have seen lists, from Relix and other outlets, but they are not complete. For example, none of them include 1/22/78, Dap 23, and that was a tapes provided through the assistance of ABCD release.
Man, we owe these guys and Dave owes these guys.

So, I think we will see another ABCD release this year for #36. What year? Maybe we get another 72 or April 78??

So, for 30 years their shows were recorded by various Dead crew members and for some reason they erased the tapes for the Warfield/Radio City run?? That makes no sense to me at all.

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8 years 7 months

In reply to by Strider 808808

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Hello again my friend,Your post brought two things to mind! Both speak ‘volumes’ Dave’s Picks 36. 🙏❤️😉💀🌹
"Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower." - Albert Camus

"Wild is the music of the autumnal winds amongst the faded woods." - William Wordsworth

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I think we will be seeing the returned Betty Boards sprinkled into every year until they are finished.

I'm very curious of the Garcia stuff as well.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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The beast get's released.. Good to see American Beauty get a nice birthday soiree.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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So, if you haven't listened to this one in a while, you should check it out. What do you think Bob t?

This is one of my favorite 30 Trips shows. The best, maybe. Sound quality is A+. There a couple of small patches, but no big deal. There are certainly no vocal dropouts for four to five songs, cough, cough.
One of my favorite HCS, just awesome and yes that second set jam is sweet. The Truckin into The Other one, etc! Hot!

Thanks for joining me on this one.

Who has a pick for today?

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I’m going with DPs 28, the twofer from frosty February of 73 just cause it’s cold and snowed here so thought apropos..
Perhaps y’all won’t want to go 73 again, understandable...

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In reply to by Oroborous

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For sure in again on these two great shows.

Good call Oroborous and yes, we had to turn the furnace on here in MN yesterday. No snow though.

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I agree the Truckin through the end is awesome... Also liked the Row Jimmy and Here Comes Sunshine... What a week of shows!!! 3 Winterlands, this, and Pauley Pavilion!!! Going to listen to the 73Feb Dicks Picks but then journey to Alexandra Palace September 9, 1974 and listen to these three shows in their entirety!! bob t

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Are there enough hours in the day?

Funny.. just came in, I'm on the San Diego Row Jimmy, and I see it mentioned...

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I wish i could get all 3 done in a day......those Alexandra Palace shows are long!!! bob t

Goal, assist, fight.

Anyway, I haven’t been keeping up since I don’t listen to music at work. But sometimes I get part of the pick in at night once I’m home. Usually the jammy parts.

But, tonight I think I’m going for 9-9-82, being the anniversary and all.

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17 years 1 month
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Just finished the encore.. Forgot how good the Truckin>Wharf Rat is!! I ordered the American Beauty released today for the 2/18/71 show... Couple interesting thoughts, we listened to the bonus shows a few weeks ago from Anthem of the Sun and Aoxomoxoa... a few of us said how we really only listened to them like once (I know I was one of them) and sort of forgot about them... Now that i look back i haven't listened to any of the actual albums that came with them including the recent Working Man's Dead release, but I did listen the the Capitol Theatre show 3 times... For me, when I think of the studio albums, i break out the old actual records and play them on the turn table or the CD's i bought to replace them years ago!!! Strange don't know why. bob t