• 8,082 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    Nebula light show projector....

    ....I'll post a review once I test it out. BTW. I got it at the guitar center website. $10 bucks cheaper. Apparently, drunk me knows a deal when he sees one. (pats myself on the back).

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Elusive

    5/26/73: being three sets I’m guessing that’s not gonna fit on three discs, but probably would fit with the bonus disc..though don’t feel he’d do just one show like that? Seems like it’s a good way to use partials, and still think they’ll do some kind of summer 73 box at some point, but of course that’s ass talk....

    VGUY: sweeettttt! That might be perfect for my music room? Definitely needs some research...
    Oh, and #$*&$ the Stars! Go Knights!

    Sorry, been a free range listener lately. After the fun Alpine 87 run, no dead for a brief respite...today been going primal;
    - 7/3/66
    - first album bonus stuff
    - 11/10/67 again!
    - 3/17/68 again!

    Thinking bout that 11/14/73 later,
    and tomorrow because;
    A) it’s due, and
    B) it’s supposed to snow so I’m thinking DP 28 from chilly February 73 will be apropos...

    Oh, didn’t get to 8/24/72 yet, been meaning to carve out time for that whole run, but did go with Dap 24 yesterday.
    Overall great, jam is awesome, but I remember thinking then as now that it’s not necessarily in my useless opinion a “top” show?? Need to hear the 21&24 Dark Stars fo sure though! Perhaps I’ll have time later this week to do the whole run?

    DV: thanks for the cool article. Knew about ABCD etc, but this sheds more light on this very interesting topic.
    Guessing perhaps some reals were in such poor condition and/or not complete, or like Jim said already in vault so not worth the price? Like Oak island, every clue seems to add more questions?

  • Dennis
    Joined:
    Vguy, at least you were drunk....

    I went crazy on Real Gone Music today and haven't had one yet today :-)

    Just a FYI - Real Gone Music has a big sale going on right now on cd's,,,, I think at the end of the month it will be vinyl.

    They had quite a chunk of road trips.

    I found enough to piss a chunk of money away. Who would have thought I'd need a copy of the Supremes doing the Funny Girl soundtrack!?!

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Personal Devotion and Tailgating Debates

    That article is Awesome, thanks DV!
    Really dug the story and was unaware of ABCD and their role.
    Super Cool.
    My assumption on the purchase of 260 reels vs the whole shebang would be that the GD already had some of the other shows, and they don't necessarily have rights to the Garcia stuff? possibly. Betty taped her own two track copies of all shows, so in some cases there are Master Reels and Betty Boards I believe.
    Anyhow, FWIW there's my heavy duty assumption.
    yeah yeah.. it ain't worth the paper it's written on, and in cyberspace, even less.
    But shit, what else you gonna do.

    VGUY - That shit is dope! I wonder can you film the projection? You're definitely gonna get some good visuals.
    Nice work Drunk You!

    8/21/72 is super sweet so far, just went through PITB and it's Mighty Fine, from a different place than 8/24 fo sure.
    BTW on 8/21/72 shnid=139581 has a weird repeated section in Stella Blue at 3:00 that is not on shnid=150 JSYK and don't have to dick around wondering what is going on. Like I just did. It's a sweet early Stella and there should be no repeated sections ;)

    Good Stuff!

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    Playing ketchup....

    ....I'm finally getting to 8.24.72. Had a few too many beers yesterday and ordered this.
    https://blisslights.com/sky-lite-laser-galaxy-projector/
    Totally forgot i did until they sent me an email this morning saying it was shipped. Drunk me apparently thought it looked pretty cool. I trust drunk me......usually.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Thanks DV

    Interesting stuff.. so if memory serves the average show contains 5 reels.. say 6 for the biggies (Kezar, etc.). so approx. 70 shows in 375 reels??

    Some of these shows (many??) are Jerry Band stuff.. hopefully the Garcia Estate is on this too.

    Still great news!! I think in addition to tunneling under the vault and freeing the reels we need to find out where these reels are being housed and send in one of our top agents (bolo?, zuck?) to liberate them. I personally am not opposed to taking Norman from his office and putting him to work immediately. We have needs.. we are being repressed!

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

    Let it be known throughout the land, that on eight September 2020, DeadVikes is calling 5/26/73 Kezar Show for the first release of 2021 on the Dave's Picks Series Volume 37.

    Nice! I'd buy it :)

    Thanks for the article tip on the Betty's I'm digging into that right after I type this nonsense.
    And the Warner Hack Letter doesn't sound very encouraging. Boo!

    8/21/72 starting off sounding good over here today.
    And yeah Gollum, I agree with Jim, not sure these shows can compare to Veneta, but it's fun to listen for those hints of glory. Ultimately 8/24 is a real solid show, but it's missing the X-Factor or whatever it is that takes a show to that Next Level of Upper Echelon Dead. Like you I did some repeated listening to Bird Song, PITB & Dark Star > Morning Dew and it's a cool trip, real thoughtful almost eerie at times. I'd keep listening to those and will try and remember that. Man we're lucky, Gotta love it!

    Sounds like some '73 as soon as this Berkeley trip winds down. Dig it.

    Alright, gotta go read about the Dead while I listen to the Dead.

    Enjoy!

  • billy the kid
    Joined:
    ABCD LLC/ tapes. 6/17/75

    I wonder why Rhino didnt buy all the tapes? I wonder if they bought 6/17/75, because I would sure buy it, if they would sell it to me, my first show. I wonder if $ 1000 would get you a tape or even get you in the discussion for buying one.

  • bob t
    Joined:
    Got my Warner music letter in mail today!!

    Boooooooooooooooo!

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    Today's Pick

    Today's pick, I thought I would fire up 11/14/73, San Diego, from the 30 Trips Box?

    Stay well all.

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Hi everyone, well I am back from my virtual Sept 1972 tour.... Why I am booing.. Not because of the tour it was awesome!!! When i returned to 2020 i found out that someone tried to open a Home Depot credit card in my name very similar to my friend Jim in MD.... However i was fortunate enough to have a credit freeze on at the 3 credit bureaus to prevent such things... So i got the Lifelock text last night at 11:30.. Contacted Home Depot credit this morning, after a couple of calls found out they were not able to get the credit because of my freeze!!!! Here is the kicker, if the card had been issued it was coming to my address!!! But guess what, Home Depot will let you use the card before you actually receive the physical card once you are approved.. Coincidence that Home Depot has been used twice now by 2 posters??? So if you don't use paypal, like myself pay attention..... bob t

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Did Set 1 last night, Set 2 starting now.

After that I think I’ll do 7-12-87 from the GS Box for a little taste of 87 in honor of the upcoming DaP36.
Wonder how fast DaP36 ala carte’s will sell out.
Wonder if we’ll get a cassette master SBD or a matrix.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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Good thing that got stopped BobT.

I’ve received notices of my name possibly being included in data breaches 3-4 times in less than 2 years.
And where’s that 3 free years of credit monitoring that I was supposed to receive as a result of the Equifax settlement?

Time the check my free credit report.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0155-free-credit-reports

Note: you can get it free once per year from each of the 3 agencies, but it doesn’t have to be at the same time. So, space it out and do a single agency at a time, once every 4 months, but don’t use the same agency for another 12 months. That way you can get a free report every 4 months.

Edit:
Oh yeah, the irony is that Equifax, one of the credit reporting agencies, got hacked and lost a lot of info, which is why they are supposed to be giving me (and millions of others) free credit monitoring.
I registered more than a year ago but never got anything. I’m going to look into that.

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So after a brief diversion to FAC rock out to DaP 35, really dig the first set. The seconds starting to lose that new car smell...later, went to 7/12/87 after all the 87 hoopla, nice little show.
Meanwhile I had planned on trying to get a good listen in on DP 11 from 9/27/72, but ended up back at the fall 73 tour since I have a tour buddy now.
9/18/73 I was not able to find a source and DB 50 suggests it might of been cancelled?
9/20/73 seemed a tad below the mark comparatively, perhaps that’s why they didn’t break out all the new jazzy stuff? Cool nobody's jam outta truckin’ though. Tape didn’t help my vibe on this one.
9/21/73 seems to pick up where they left off with a status quo (meaning good) first with the stand out being a sweet HCSS! The second se5 was another beauty eh! And though the tape was decent the mix turned out to be lacking as the horns were sometimes inaudible. I even tried different versions but same problem, noticed some vocals and other drop outs occasionally...the only blemish musically was Let Me Sing as Kieth is also hard to hear sing, or may even be struggling as it seems like JG is much more prevelant, perhaps trying to compensate? Don’t think this can totally be attributed to the mix?
It’s a bummer that this was I believe the last version as it was a good song and he sang it well early on.
Feel like the jam on 9/11 had potential, but that was it...unless they did it on 9/8? Probably should have started with that one even sans horns...
But listening to this version it kinda feels over...
But no biggie as the majority of the second set kicks ass audio anomaly’s and all.
That whole Truckin’ through Rat, followed by a great Row Jimmy, and THEN the whole jazzy horn sequence of the show which would of been top notch except for the mix...I’ll need to go back and hear that post Truckin jam into the other one or maybe it’s the post TOO that I really dug, though I was actually in a fog groovin’ on the couch lol. Hey, it was Saturday I deserved a little couch time dammit!
Today I want to try and get DP 11 in, but those last 2 horn shows are calling, so who knows!
Think next week I’m going to try and do fall 89 in order though I doubt I’ll get to them all on the anniversary date.

That is a bummer Bob t, for you and the rest of the people on this site.
Hope they get this taken care of for all.

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Sorry about your experience. I got nailed by someone in July, but my bank declined them, so I was lucky. I also received a letter from a vendor I spend at indicating they had a data breach in that period. I assume that's how my info got out there to be replicated in fake card form. So much for those security chips in the card.

So what does Lifelock do?

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Thanks for the kind words and sorry you had it happen also. Lifelock texts me anytime anyone attempts to open a line of credit, or anything similar like a payroll advance, or opening up a checking or savings account, in real time. So i received a text to my phone and an email the same day on Saturday that they tried to open the account. I have nothing to do with Lifelock also. They are the ones that told me about putting the credit freeze on at the credit bureaus, (by the way you can do that on line for free)... Also on a side note, I have my Visa set up to get alerts anytime any purchase is made on line or on phone, or internationally, which is another helpful tip!! Bob t

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Their ad says:
“ Our Travel agency offers:
Transparency.
Exceptional customer service.”

Transparency and exceptional customer service are certainly more than Rhino offers.

“Mind-blogging deals and offers.”

Mind-blogging?
Uh, ok.....

“Inconceivable deals on refunds and advance bookings.”

Inconceivable?
I’m not sure that means what you think it means....

Well, maybe they’re not so good.
Don’t give them your credit card number.

So I clicked on their link and my screen went completely blank. So transparency is the first thing you see when you do business with these guys. No doubt a good sign as honesty seems front and central in dealing with them.

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We have a great first set from 4/23/77 in Springfield, Great Row Jimmy and Scarlet>Fire, (third one ever), a good 78 and and 86 with the 4th ever Desolation Row and a Brother Essau... Complimentary head sets and snacks served also.... Bob t

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In reply to by JimInMD

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How does the 5/11/77 show from the St. Paul Civic Center sound to you all?

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Been a while since I gave this a spin. You caught me just in time, heading out the door with my favorite device in hand.

Move me brightly..

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Don't miss Phil dropping a snatch of China Doll pre-Wharf Rat. This is prior to the post-hiatus breakout a week later in Atlanta at the Fox. Anyone know if they played Big River in St.Paul? I suppose I can check, too. It's a nice show that pretty much has it all. Oh, except a Dark Star, although there is a Space...Be well and be grateful all! :-)

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In reply to by wilfredtjones

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Yes, WTJ, this show they played Big River in the first set.

And I agree, great show. Really like the Jack Straw Peggy O. That Jack Straw just keeps building. As you said great Scarlet-Fire, love the UJB, Jam or Space into Wharf Rat. Love that Brokedown Palace encore.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Take this for a test drive.
https://archive.org/details/gd1969-03-28.sbd.bear.motb.108057.flac16

Have listened to this several times over that past 2 weeks as I try to wrap my mind Around & Around it and anticipate if/when this will be released on CD and vinyl in Plangentized and Normanized glory.

The time is now Dave.
DaP37.
With a follow-up RSD vinyl.

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It is necessary to discuss about having a healthy lifestyle. Health is important to all. There are many health related queries that needs to be discussed about. For further health related queries check in here. https://www.healthmatter.co/

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In reply to by burgerskelly

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Clearly in Kelly's post (below), her user name is in reference to the Hot Tuna album Burgers, not the fatty, cholesterol laden sandwich. After all, she's a self proclaimed health and lifestyle freak.

I have it on good advisement that Kelly is Hippie Chicks younger, hotter sister, a rabid dead fan and not a cereal spammer.

Update: Scratch that.., apparently my advisor uses a Ouija Board.

Kelly is actually a 450 lb grotesque cereal spammer living in the top level of a rat infested favela outside Rio. On the bright side, this new spamming habit has almost eliminated his desire for chronic pick-pocketing and the mugging of foreign tourists.

I very much enjoyed 5/11 yesterday. A wonderful palate cleanse - it has been a while since I listened to a full May 77 show. Today I am following Cone Kid down the phosphorescent 1969 rabbit hole and have set the dials to the wayback to 3/28/69. Getting the tractor up to 8.8 mph and holding on tight, here I go..

Any interest in taking a Warlocks tour to the Hampton Coliseum tomorrow and Friday ala 10/8 and 10/9/89?

My ReCRAPTCHA this morning read, "Select all pictures with time machines."

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In reply to by JimInMD

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May '77.. nuff said.
That was fun.

Sugaree in the closer spot. Rippin'

3/28/69 is a favorite.

Hampton Coliseum was a cool place.

Tractor Avatar is activated.

Brain is not.
Traffic Lights & Crosswalks.

GD Hour with David Gans to start my morning.
One more day I find myself alive...

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I like these picks! Modesto- 1969 Dead in a dusty cowtown. Then the Warlocks. I'm a little embarrassed to admit I've never heard the Warlocks shows, other than the Dark Star, I guess. Let's do this!

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In reply to by Gollum

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Oh yeah, I’m going to Hampton tomorrow and try and do the whole tour in order as I have not heard them all YET!

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I've recently done St. Paul. Obviously the Uncle John's Band Space Wharf Rat and Brokedown Palace is a knockout punch. The Scarlet Fire may be a tad underrated. Probably in my top 5.

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In reply to by KeithFan2112

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Welcome Keithfan, this is a fun spot.

So, 10/8/89 tomorrow and 10/9/89 on Friday. The big enchiladas of the 89 shows released so far.

I think about this box sitting on this site for sale from 2010 to at least 2016 for $69. What a bargain!

Looking forward to going through these two again.

Everybody hang loose.

Edit-Gollum, you have never heard these shows? Let us know your thoughts.

Beats the hell out of me. Ask Butch I guess.

Ticket number 8109, Sunday 7:30 PM October 8, 1989. Sunday was the purple ticket. The East Coast breakout of Help>Slip!>Franklins. The second set was hot, or as Brent and Phil recanted "...but you better take it easy 'cause this place is hot." I'm so glad I made it.

To get my tickets I was supposed to meet a friend.. who got the flu and didn't show up. I am meeting people I did not know at the Holiday Inn in the days before cell phones, texts, emails, etc.. I was basically stumbling around the parking lot for a long time with no plan and someone I did not know came out their room and said, hey.. are you Jim? Strangers stopping strangers...

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Finished set 1 and loved it. I really like the sound of the band here. Phil, Bob and Jerry upfront and in good balance and Brent a bit more subdued than Spring 90, filling in holes tastefully. I really like this blend. And I've always liked the MIDI.
Oct 89 > Spring90? (maybe, for Gollum) but on to set 2...

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So happy they did those shows!!! Haven't listened to them in a while!! Good call... Gonna listen to my favorite 82 show tomorrow... Frost Amphitheatre 10/9/82.... This is one of those shows i like better on audience!!! Really like the second set!!! Have a good day all. Bobt

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In reply to by Gollum

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You finished both today Bob t. You are an overachiever for sure.
10/9/89 for me tomorrow.

Can't imagine how great these shows would have been to see in person. You must have had a blast Jim on both days. Must have been weird to not have the scene outside.
10/9 of course gets a lot of praise due to the Dark Star and Death Don't Have No Mercy, but, 10/8 is no slouch.
Really great show. These recordings are so good.

Why don't people like them, who knows, but they are missing out.

89 has a lot to offer Gollum, they were really on fire until Brent passed.

Be well all.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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The Hampton Roads space ship had achieved lift off for sure.. 31 years ago today.

What I don't remember about these shows is stunning, especially because for the most part I was sober.. perhaps a little shrubbery at most. There was a ton going on in my life at the time.. the beginning of real responsibilities that unfortunately I have not been able to shed to this day. I guess you can only stay a carefree kid for so long and life begins.. ready or not.

What I do remember was the return of the newly modified Wolf and just how good they were sounding. It made me think through the of shows I had seen and compare this to how they were playing these two nights. I saw some good ones early on, but pre coma there was a consistency and stamina problem. These two shows were solid, inspired and a huge improvement over what I had seen recently.. well.. probably ever. The boys were back in a big way. That is my strongest memory.

I knew they had pulled out Death Don't Have No Mercy the week before at Shoreline, the warm up for the fall tour shows. But I had no idea what was in store. I had those pre-show jitters, was there stag this time, somewhat unusual for me.. finding my place, fitting in with the complete strangers left, right and center.. then Stranger and that "Long Long Crazy Tour" line. The jitters were gone and the spaceship did not disappoint. I drove home right after the shows.. something like a six hour drive, I had class bright and early the next morning and started my week feeling rough but at peace with the world.

Were they the best shows ever, of course not.. but these shows represented a spark and the beginning of their last truly great run. So glad they recorded it multi-track. We are a lucky, spoiled bunch..

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I was out in the northwest when word of these shows reached me - first heard tapes at the Blue Moon. holy guacamole news. so time to pull out the old cigar box and spin 10/9 today (streamed 10/8 at work yesterday). so much goodness, and that Dew was something else. And Bid you Goodnight??!! these shows inspired me to drive down the coast to LA for the Forum shows (only shows I saw in '89.)

St Paul 5/11/77 is one of my favorite from the spring tour. whole show smokes with one of my personal favorite Scarlet>Fires.

Oro - the eagle has landed.

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“when you see 8,000 kids all going up in the air together … Listen, this is powerful stuff!”
- Joseph Campbell re: Grateful Dead

Hampton was special.
Looking at the place you might not think so, but I saw things there that I've never seen anywhere else.
Things happened there, powerful things.

Now you could point to substances or drugs.. but we could play that parlor game all day.

But if you listen to shows from Hampton Coliseum, you can hear what I'm talking about.
Especially if there's some ambience mixed in.
The crowd at Hampton came alive.
Energy connected everyone in that building and it was a spaceship to another place.
A really really cool place.

I think an exploration into the band's connection with Hampton would be illuminating.

Maybe it's because it's where they'd kick off Spring Tour, or a show somebody saw there, or they liked the hotel they stayed at.

Whatever it was things happened there, powerful things.

I think it has something to do with the crowd.

I've never been a part of a crowd like the one during the 3 nights I spent there, we made that place take flight. You could actually see the energy zooming around, connecting us, uniting us, lifting us up, making us scream out. It was a party the likes of which I've searched for, but have never quite found again.

"It" was, in fact, what I'd set out looking for in the first place and had always hoped to find.
"It" was at Hampton.

I wasn't there in '89 but of course these shows are legend.
There's a certain edge to the band when they're on at Hampton, you can hear it on night 1.
I'm looking forward to night 2.
Fun stuff

Cool story Jim thanks for sharing.
It totally did look like a spaceship.
And that puppy could fly!

Happy Friday, hope it's a silky silky crazy crazy night for you all!

EDIT: PS - 10/9/82 = Good Call! Glad you mentioned it.

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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Y’all have covered much of the mystique and vibe of that magical place! I’ll add my two shillings later as I have to get some stuff done, but yeah, shows like these are why my mind gets blown by folks who write them off, my favorite being “there’s nothing worth listening to after 78”....to each their own I guess.....10/8, like DV said, doesn’t have quite the bling as 10/9 but “it’s no slouch” amen brother!
In some ways overall it might be better? Are one of these the best show of the tour???, not sure, it’s hard to not be biased after such an experience, (came out feeling like I’d been mildly dosed! just from the energy etc)..but I’ve kinda felt maybe Nightfall of Diamonds is a touch above overall? And there’s still so many other great shows on this tour that are up there, like Philly anyone? Going to finally take the Pepsi/BobT challenge and do this whole tour since there’s several shows I’ve not heard yet and really want to go in order and do so...been loving that approach as it’s fascinating following the changes and nuances.
Gotta believe that we’ll get more or hopefully most of this tour someday, multitracks of great shows, need I say more!

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38 years ago today I was at the Frost seeing the Dead, it was my favorite show that I saw there, they played a lot of good shows there. 10/9 & 10/10/ 82 would make a nice release together. We all dosed and got really high. One of my top 3 Dead shows I attended.

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You are correct sir.

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In reply to by billy the kid

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Dope!
Everybody Say Primate!
Silence...
Say What?
Everybody Say What!
What!
Hey, that was good, that was good.
Are we all here together...

I'm gonna go listen to #3

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It's been great reading all these Hampton memories. I saw three Hampton shows (my favorite was 4/14/84). I've always avoided these Warlocks shows. I guess I figured they were probably overhyped and overrated, because of the surprise billing and the breakouts. Maybe I was a little jealous I missed these shows! :o I see now they stand on their own as great shows. They seem grittier and less polished than Spring 90, in a good way. Right now, I'm preferring them to Spring 90!

I expect I'll be wallowing in these shows all weekend and I also still have Modesto '69 on tap. And maybe some others y'all come up with. An '82 Frost audience sounds pretty cool!

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10/9/82 Frost Audience is finished.... the second set rocks... going to listen to 10/9/77 McNichols which I don't think I have played in at least 25 years.... I do remember the Sugaree and the Scarlet Fire..... For some reason i tend to skip over the early 1977 October tour after the Paramount shows.... I wonder why......Have a good weekend everyone.. Bob t

Love the tickets. Good stuff.
I have had an absolute blast with the Pick of the Day, since this all started in I think March. My god, just thought this would be a few months.
Anyway, listening to the shows and then hearing from this great group. You all make my day. Thank you!

And yes Oroborous, fall 89, so much to offer. Give us some more.

At some point I would love to see them release some Shoreline shows. East coast is great, but there are so many Shoreline shows.

And where is Bolo?? Who got this started?? Thank you.

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Wow that Playin' through Space sure went down smooth - and then there's another half hour of magic! Awesome show. The Veneta of the late 80's?!?! Sounds right to me. Now I need to revisit the 10/26 Miami show, another one I've neglected.

Yes, thanks to bolo for the great "pick of the day" idea. So here we are 6 months later and still locked down, more or less, with no clear light at the end of the tunnel. We may as well try to keep this ball rolling!