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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    9/16/87

    I enjoyed this show. Recording is really good. You get good crowd noise, which I like. Nice Touch of Gray, Scarlet to start. Always enjoy a Dire Wolf, Brother Esau, really strong Let it Grow. Never been a huge fan of the Devil with a Blue Dress, Good Golly Miss Molly, luckily it didn't stay around too long. He's Gone delivers. Highlight of the second set for me was the Truckin, Wharf Rat. Good NFA with a GDTRFB reprise, really interesting. Definitely worth a listen and the 87 MSG run is a good run.

    Woke up to 9 more inches of snow here in MN on April Fool's Day.

  • icecrmcnkd
    Joined:
    I’ve heard Brent’s solo album

    Not very good.
    What a waste of good Fall ‘80 reels.

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    Jim and OB

    Jim, too funny! Yes, where is that Brent release. Just think if they recorded over the E72 reels? Where would we be.

    Interesting stuff OB, would love to learn more from that article. Maybe Cutler, Pearson, etc. made two track down mixes?

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    On it DV

    Nice start, then…oh Bob lol

    7/16/72: yep, ruff tape, good show. Glad I checked it.
    3/29/68: another beauty. Nice recording, always dig a Sitting on Top, Death Don’t, and the usual suspects!
    I bet there’s more of these old shows they could use. What gives Dave, WE WANT OUR PRIMAL BOX 66-70!

    Haven’t made it to 3/29/69 yet…

    HOWDY JIMBO, good to see ya!

    DBL EDIT: I think they have cassettes of some of those shows.
    Pearson et el were part of the ultrasound crew and involved in the early R&D years with John Meyer. They cobbled together a bunch of stuff over the years, including a hybrid super system for the fall 80 shows. I have an old article some where (I think from modern recording magazine back then?) (shit, I should dig that out ) discussing the crazy stuff they were doing. Most folks don’t understand: technologically, the wall was child’s play compared to the Meyers ultrasound systems of the eighties onward. They started developing stuff way back in the early/mid seventies and we’re working behind the scenes for many years. They often would test new things they were working on in conjunction with the existing stuff. Literal work in progress! No different then pre and early wall shows etc.
    They cobbled a set up together for certain test shows when able I,e., I believe 12/31/78 is an example.
    The fall 80 shows were another big test run.
    Anyway, it was many years of R&D before the fully formed Ultrasound sweetness most folks took for granted from like 1983 onward, but these guys pioneered so many changes and inventions over the course of decades that most folks don’t realize. Howard Danchik is another ultrasound unsung hero. Had the pleasure to talk to Howard and he was kind of enough to discuss some stuff at the one show I worked 7/1/92, while we were under the stage turning amps on.
    I’m sure these guys wore many hats during such an important gig!
    What a crew!

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    87

    Will try and fit that in today while I work.

    ha.. just noticing the good doctor was up and posting at 4:06 am yesterday steering us towards more primal dead. In this world of trouble, we need more primal dead and I thank him for that.

    As to the myriad of sound engineers working with the 1980 multi-tracks.. yes, I was aware but am still not sure what all that means. It looks like Betty and Dan worked the mix and the rest were involved in the recording. Certainly they had a sound truck out back for the whole run. My guess is all that work went into making those multi-tracks that were carefully erased to make room for the new Brent album that should be coming out any day now, I've been waiting a long for this.. it's going to be great.

    I suspect there is more than what Lemieux will tip his hat towards, but it is probably true that complete shows from this run might be just beyond our grasp unless recorded on cassettes. Just a guess though, we can always hold hope.

    How does that song go..... in this world of trouble, we've got love one another. Keep up the hope fellow heads.

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    9/16/87

    Okay, looks like we need a pick. How does 9/16/87 from the Madison Square Garden sound ? The 18th was the 30 Trips show.

    Unrelated, I was watching Dead Ahead a few nights ago and kept it on and watched the credits. First, they filmed both 10/30 and 10/31 nights. Would love to see the two full shows.

    Second, as I was watching the credits, it listed recorded by Bob Matthews, John Cutler, Wizard and Don Pearson. Those are some very interesting names for the time period as I did not know Cutler or Pearson had any affiliation with the band in 1980. I also didn't know Wizard or Bob Matthews were still working with the band on recordings at this point. Seemed to indicate this was a professional recording with a professional crew?

    Anyway, I know Dave bursted my bubble a couple of years ago, stated there will never be a multi track release of the Warfield/RCMH. However, I wonder if there are recordings somewhere from Pearson, Wizard? Wouldn't that be something?

  • Forensicdoceleven
    Joined:
    A gift in season is a double favor to the needy…..

    Wake up rockers!!!!

    Picks Of The Day:
    Carousel Ballroom March 29 1968
    Ice Palace, Las Vegas March 29 1969

    So soon, another Daily Double? Thanks Doc, I’ll take Primal Dead for $1000……

    When you go into the realm of a double role, you have to take it to another level to make it believable. With these two shows, the Dead clearly take it to that other level…..

    March 29, 1968: There’s a nice Miller remaster out there, is it a soundboard, or stage mics? Either way, quite listenable. Kick it off with some major grease. Death Don’t second song in. Stand-alone Dark Star. Greasy gooey jammy grand finale. Can we hope that there’s a “new and improved “ copy in those banana boxes?

    March 29, 1969: The band scorches Sin City with a wonderful psychedelic masterpiece. Grease and big jamming, what could go wrong?!! We had tapes of part of this way back in the day, and it was cherished. Now, worthy of official release, is it in those banana boxes too? Only time can tell…………..

    I have doubted myself on several Daily Double answers……

    Rock on!!

    Doc
    I have so many personalities, I live more than a double life………….

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    7/15/89 Deer Creek

    The first set started out good, but yes, there appears to be weirdness going on with the recording. Peggy O and Queen Janes were good and I thought the Bird Song was great.
    What happened in the second set? That Crazy Fingers seemed to be a struggle and don't know what happened to Jerry or the recording? But, there was a something going on.
    They sure bounced back at Alpine a couple days later.

  • bluecrow
    Joined:
    Deer Creek and 7/16/72

    Pretty damn funny that Dave had a slice of Deer Creek '89 up this morning. I haven't had a chance yet for that show but couldn't help but notice that set list from Crazy Fingers onward which is def my kind of sequence.

    I was only suggesting the Jam of the Week for 7/16/72 because of the lack of a recent circulating copy and knowing the vault source would be cleaner. I actually had the one circulating source as a POTD over a year ago. I know it starts with that somewhat weird unbalanced audience, had to have been recorded near/in front of a stack, which I could dig but others not so much, before it off and on transitions to the sbd. A crazy thing about the audience source is that all instruments and vocals are pretty well represented. The show isn't quite 7/18 but its solid '72 and which means some really really good music.

    Edit - And now going back to it, yeah I seem to remember that Playing absolutely rips, only 5 songs into the show. God I love it! Like I said way back when, there is something about this audience source that puts me right there! Wowza!! Maybe my favorite straight-into-the-heart-of-the-sun '72 Playings.

    And I love love love the Cold Rain and Snow that is song 2 of that audience ; ) And the Black Throated Wind that follows.

    Edit 2 - awesome closing jam of Not Fade Away >Going down the Road>Hey Bo Diddley with Dickey, Berry, and Jaimoe.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Ha! Great minds…

    It’s like that bumper sticker: who are the Grateful Dead and why do they keep following me?

    7/15/89: decent one/two opener, though it appears Bobs having tech issues. Blues, nice PEGGY O, but Jer?, something seems not…quite in snap..? Micro synapses not syncing? Not bad, but…Hard to describe, just Queen J for instance he’s just…not..quite…usually owns these songs? Maybe I’m reading into too much? Whatevs?
    That’s how part of this show seemed: good show, but perhaps not quite summer 89 good?
    BIRD SONG they do a great job of nice unhurried swelling as a band in sync, smooth, not forcing it.
    Subtle but very nice.
    JG comes out second with Foolish Heart but again, ok, but…maybe trying too hard, holding the stick too tight?
    Same with Victim, ok but….
    Then Crazy Fingers it’s like Jer steps it up and they start to really, then…ooopps, then yeah…but by Truckin it’s like they know they have to catch up and from Smokestack onward the show rocks! Cool Drumz/space with Close Encounters tease, sweet China Doll, definitely felt like Jer was trying to make up for things, and to prove it he throws in a sweet Stella after a smoking Watchtower in the middle! Big R&R mags closer, and JG throws down again with a Brokedown, though not flawless, it’s a nice finish. Interesting show. Not quite sure overall how I feel about it? I can see why it has maybe been passed over? Good but again, perhaps a step back from some of its lofty neighbors?
    Of course still have Alpines and that cool Foxboro show, not to mention the Cali shows, and several fall tour nuggets, all just sitting there in multitrack glory…?

    Ok BC, trying this 7/16/72 but so far the tape is so so aud…
    Holy crap Weirs killing it on this Playing jam!

    So, funny. While grooving on tunes today I per chance was perusing that After All Is Said And Done book, and don’t cha know there on page 173 in the minutes from band meeting on 7/11/84 are several very interesting things. Among other things, First, was how ole Betty was suing both GDP for $25,800, and Brent specifically for $45,000, not insignificant for the times.
    Says GDP does not owe her, but does not mention about Brent. Guessing having to do with Brent’s solo album that they had been working on. Hell I probably knew what and have forgotten : (
    Also, item 12 discusses approval for additional lighting/projector for “Friday 13 July—Dark Star, second set”
    Berry interesting…
    I need to check this book out more. It’s been sitting here in my Xmass book pile and ive picked at it but it appears there’s more here than I first thought? Same with that Dylan Modern Song. Just been occasional picking at it, but great book non the less. Little bit on Truckin’ too.
    Onward!

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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In reply to by Oroborous

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Come on Oroborous, don't delete your post. I did see it. And yes, this is not this day in Grateful Dead History. I never look at that site, so I don't follow what they post each day. Some shows are worth a listen, but variety is welcome for sure.

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Ice & Snow kicked me off the internet for a day.
It was tough, let me tell ya.
Not sure how we grew up without this stuff ;)

Or, good thing we didn't have this when I was a kid or I never would've gone outside.

While I was in the wilderness without the internet, there was another Nudie suit sighting.
3/18/73 NRPS show
I'm listening to it now, the NRPS were wearing their Nudie Suits, and Keith, Donna, Bobby & Jerry all join the boys on the stage. They're talking to somebody from the bands and he says "we couldn't get Garcia to wear his though". So not sure if Keith Donna & Bobby have theirs on or not, they'd wear them the next night for the final time.

Pretty neat.

Digging the show, there's a nice FM copy on Archive here if you've not heard it -
https://archive.org/details/nrps1973-03-18.fm.weiner.21538.sbeok.shnf

There's a Willie and the Hand Jive that Garcia plays on.
(Since we've been discussing '86 and the Hand Jive has popped up, figure that was relevant)

The other thing I was learning yesterday without the internet was about the Carousel shows March 29-31, 1968.
Smoking stuff!!
Based on what I'm reading and hearing, I think 3/31/68 is the night Jerry pushed Phil.
You Play Goddammit!
If you want to flip your lid, listen to the Caution from 3/31... GODDAMN!
Some of that was definitely used on Anthem, and it's totally off the rails.
Wonder what the story is on these Reels in the Vault?

Well, there you go.
Who's got a pick?

EDIT - Oh yeah, I started to read up on Nanao but then lost the wi-fi, far out. Strikes me as a peaceful warrior.
Speaking of, you all ever read Peaceful Warrior? I read it when I was a kid, I think Dan Millman was the trapeze artist at the Trips Festival, trippy huh?!?!

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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...yeah I know, deep subject (cue rim shot!) hey-ooo.
I see there are dates and ideas, but do we have a pick?

If not I’d like to suggest 2 ideas.
1) 5/3/86 from boxilla. Still haven’t got to this one and all this 86 talk makes me want to try some 86. Also. need my device for other stuff...
2) Capitol 71 run: I know Striders been anxiously prepping for the 18th, and yes though I get bored with same old repetitive anniversaries, this is different. This is like the difference between your unpteenth anniversary, (sorry Love!) and your 50th wedding Anniversary! So since we’ve been floundering a bit lately, how bout we start on the 18th and go the whole Capitol Run. If nothing else it’s like wearing a uniform to work; ya don’t have to think about what to ware in the morning! ; )
Or not, just a thought.

GOGD: have a research project if your interested. I can’t seem to find which Spectrum show had Wrestling before the Dead? I’m sure it was at the Spectrum, but I’m not sure if it was 86 or 87? I tried to cross reference with WWF 86 schedule but no luck, then I ran outta time...maybe their was a different “league” or something? I looked at comments on the archive too, but nobody mentions it? I’m not sure I’ll have that kinda time, but knowing you like to ferret these oddities out, thought you might enjoy it? I know we enjoy your adventures in the pursuit of all things Dead!

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In reply to by Oroborous

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I'll listen to 5/3/86 and I'll listen to the whole Capitol 71 Run.

It's on.

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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....I'm listening to 12.15.86. Been diving down that '86 rabbit hole recently.

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In reply to by Vguy72

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Wonder how often you hear Heads gettin' stoked on '86?

Set 1 from 5/3 is fun.
Set 2 is beginning.

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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Enough time has passed

3 31 86 should have been on my list earlier

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Not too shabby!
Fun little first, of course 86 short.., good opener for gray cold morning,.second set is pretty good, might go again just cause...Played so loud JGs voice coils seized up, too funny! So far I don’t think I’ve heard a bad show from Boxilla, sure maybe not all killer, but not a bad one so far...
Yeah, diggin the 86, anyone know of any more goodins send em along so I can write em down,
Thanks! I’d say grab another tomorrow before we go down the Capitol hole, but that’s up to y’all, don’t wanna be greedy! ; )

EDIT: add 3/31and 12/15 to list ✔️

I have fond memories of that song deep into the pre-drums set two dogma.. typically filling the Ship of Fools or Sampson segment just before it gets into deep space. There's a Hampton, a Merriweather and an Augusta that come to mind.

Personal to me, but some really fond memories and I still dig this tune.

(edit, I did not make Augusta, still kicking myself in the ass for that one)

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Sounds good DV!
Just got a real gone copy...I’ve had a copy copy, but just today got my hard copy...so it’s a sign!

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50th anniversary tomorrow. So let me throw my lucky Stetson hat in the ring. Tomorrow’s pick , 2/18/71. Will work on some kind of reminiscent writing.

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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Loud and proud

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In reply to by proudfoot

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As fate would have it, I listened to that recently.

Excellent choice

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Dave's Picks #23! What a high energy show this is. That He's Gone into The Other One. Wow! At almost 40 minutes, I would have been drained at the end of that version, jazzy and spacey.
Fall 72 and this one delivers the whole show minus the encore I believe.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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:)))

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Time for you to go back where you belong.

Looking forward to the Multi Track spectacular 2/18/71.

Ready for this too.

I primed my interest with 2/21 last night into shoveling this morning. My second listen since the reissue, and this one popped on many levels - I got much more out of this than the first listen. This will mark my second listen of 2/18 since the reissue. These releases are gems.

Enjoy all.. we heard from Doc regarding this show on the Dave's Picks thread.. bet we hear from Strider on this one.

Cease the day folks.. make the best you can out of 2/18/2021.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy, big 50th today, I know Striders Stoked ; )
I am too, stoked for some multi-track grooviness! and a great way to kick off the run!
Boo ya, a real Bobbie Dazzler eh!

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I wrote a long piece in pencil before sunrise this morning. I’ve decided to post it on the dead.net page , Grateful Dead 2/18/71 as it will last longer than the American Beauty 50th page and maybe even this pick of the day page. Yes , I’m stoked. Where is Doc@11 ?

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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Hola Strider.. looking for your 2/18 recap.. Where did you post it? I looked on the 2/18 page and there is a short paragraph starting with someone attempting to rob you outside the show, "give me your money..." A little scary, but hilarious at the same time.

I enjoy the personal GD stories, especially ones that go this far back.

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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In fact.. looking forward to the write-up so much I had to post it twice.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Ditto Jim!

I'm looking forward to Strider's 2/18/71 Liner Notes to enjoy with these tunes.
I think he's working on them :)
This Dark Star is good to listen to.

Speaking of Dark Stars, Rob Eaton is having a hard year so far.
Charlie Miller mentioned he's dealing with the Covid now.
Send positive Vibes Rob's way.
Here's some info and hoping to help spread the word of his GoFundMe if it hasn't already made the rounds -
https://www.gratefulweb.com/articles/dark-star-orchestras-rob-eaton-lau…

Everybody that listens to this music has a lot to thank Rob for and there's good people here.
Send out that joy and reflect some back at him.

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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....I clicked that link, but didn't see anything about Covid. Cool site though. I you scroll down, there some neat GD stuff for sale (I'm looking at you Dancing Bear wine bottle stopper).

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In reply to by Vguy72

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Yeah, way cool site, I need to spend more time digging through it.

Just heard about the Covid news this AM, so wanted to bump the GoFundMe.

F Covid!

You are correct sir.. seems to only be one audience copy that circulates. And it's not great, just ok.

I miss NRPS, RIP John/Buddy. They were endlessly touring before Buddy Cage got sick and were easy to catch.. one of those bands you see time after time and it never got old. David Nelson is still around, but he doesn't seem to make it too far out of CA and HI, and that is back when we used to have live music... And the last time I saw them he seemed a big fragile. They guy is authentic, a living legend in my humble opinion. I was just listening to one of their last studio albums a couple days ago while cooking some dinner. Where I Come From.. a really nice album.

Had a great time with this show today.. did 2/21 yesterday and when 2.18 ended I went right back into the first six or seven songs of 2.21 again. Loved it..

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Fantastic show. Sound quality is A+. That Dark Star, Wharf Rat, Dark Star, Me and My Uncle are worth the price of admission. And yes, I said Me and My Uncle.
Looking forward to 2/21/71 soon.

So much great music to explore, we are a lucky bunch....... Okay back to try the..

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Listened to 2/18/71 starting at sunset. Then I started 2/19/71 just before midnight (hour) . With first verse of Loser when the clock struck 12 o’clock (High) 2/19/21 finished complete show. Still up before the sun this morning. Listening to 2/19 a second go-round this morning “I know she’s in the world somewhere” . “ I can’t wait that long to walk around the world “. Wow, the original five or as David Gans said ,”the quintessential quintet”. Smokestack Lightning “ is so smooth and driven, bad and beautiful.”

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Well I ordered the Dave's Picks Vol.37 the day it came out !...I HAVE NOT Received it, I contracted Dead.net, Only to get a Auto-Reply indicating they would get back to me with in a few days, Needless to say , It was charged to my Credit Card but I never got my CD, Ive had trouble ordering quite a few times in the Past, And now there is NO WAY to call and speak to a Human Being ! Ive been a Dedicated buyer of almost EVERY Dicks / Dave's picks as well as the Road Trips CDs... I do not order the Yearly Subscription for a few reasons , One of them being the cost, I just cant afford it during these troubled times, I prefer to order CDs when they come out Individually,...Now the CD is SOLD OUT...Why is this happening ?..Is it because of the State I live in ? (New Mexico)...I have no other problems when ordering other Items from other Shippers, I am totally Disgusted with the way things are being done at Dead.net and Ive been thinking maybe its time for me just to move on ....(Please excuse my typing, as my computers keyboard is a bit messed up)...THANK YOU ...TOMAS .

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I realize I bought the killer vinyl versions of From the Vault (1,2,&3) . Virgin vinyl. That’s five Vs.

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In reply to by Tom_Tom

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If you ordered a la carte, give it a few more days.

The days of talking to real people are vanishing. Like, 98% gone. "Go to our website" is the only option given. But remember, "your call is important to us". Lol...

"Artificial Intelligence" and all that shit.

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In reply to by Strider 808808

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Gonna listen to some Grateful Dead today.

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In reply to by proudfoot

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I have found a rare dud

9 30 80 through hes gone is "HEY! WHO NEEDS COFFEE?"

Hopefully things will get livelier.

After blissing out to 12 30 79 last evening, this show is quite a contrast.

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In reply to by The Good Ole G…

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...2/19/71 and let me tell ya...I got no chance of losing THIS time!

2/18/71: upon future review, I’m with DOC 11, it’s a good show, but perhaps a tad overhyped...
I used to feel this way in the past, then when I received the 50th multi tracks, I flipped out at how good it sounds, and really dug it, like top shelf where mama hides the cookies, but now I’m a bit more conservative?
Yassss it’s a sexy show with those 5 newbies, and it has that little but First set Dark Star, with a pretty damn good Rat for first time as the meat in the sandwich (damn this 2/19 Cumberlands good for typing!) and I forgot about the Saint Steve’s, but it’s a bit organic overall; their not that tight on some things and the guitars where more outta tune then I recall.
Now before ya wish upon me eternal damnation, I’m just giving it the critical thinking treatment. I still love it, I enjoy it, especially the multi-track goodness, but I already understand why they picked 2/19 over this one for the vault release, and I’m only up to hurts me too...
But now I’m really itching to do this whole run because it really is the coolest way to compare the shows and get the possible underlying adjustments and evolution etc..
Ok, nuff talk,...shut up and turn it up!

Edit: 2/19 Bertha: whoa, easy there Billy! Just a tad different then the previous night lol..

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In reply to by Vguy72

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Check out hes gone

Sleeeeeeeeeepyyyyyy....

The next track is awake. My coffee idea worked!

At least for now...time will tell

Coffee courtesy of DarkStarbucks

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Orobouros - yes 2/19 sounds of a higher order to me than 2/18. More people on stage for the 18th, and neither adding a great deal, it has to be said. Maybe the others felt the same way as Ned and Mickey only played that first night. Once they were down to the original 5 the sound of 1971 crystallized.

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In reply to by daverock

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First set is a melty dream
Second set has the chandelier thing
All those new tunes throughout
And now Saint Stephen without that horrific splice

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Wow..yeah, imho they sound way more together. The previous nights newbies are improved, listen to Phil on Playing both nights, back to back, and compare; there’s more jams; the bacon is greasier, sheeeooot, the Smokestack is worth the price of admission in itself!
That Smokestack was so good I had to listen a second time!
Now, I may know relatively little of 71 specifics, but to me, that Smokestack is THE sound of the Pre KG GD! If someone asked me to play 1 thing as an example of that time I’d have no problem wiping this out! Bobble Dazzler indeed.

The Cryptical suite was, well, pretty sweet ; ) listened to that again too! Also repeats of 1st Bird Song and Deal. Almost hard to believe these are first timers. Easy Wind...fo-git-bout-it! Pass me the napkins! Nice Dark Hollow to provide some variety, and hey, it’s got a Cumberland!
Yeah, 2/18 is a fine show, but this bad boy hangs where mama hides the cookies!
Looking forward to tomorrow 2/20/71 as I’ve not heard that one before...