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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • #181
    dmcvt
    Joined:
    Billy Idol: Worm Wedding

    Hey little sister, who’s your only worm…

  • #182
    JimInMD
    Joined:
    Ha..

    There has to be a VHS of that wedding party somewhere, I want to see it.

    If it does surface, Oro, this could seriously jeopardize your career in politics.

    Truth be known, nobody strives to become a worm farmer. Most just marry into it.

  • #183
    Oroborous
    Joined:
    City Island

    Looks like a cool venue.
    Didn’t get the best listen of 84, but Felt like it was a creeper and really liked the space with that 100’ tall bullfrog of Jers, from then out was good. I agree Jim, like 83 better. Always been a favorite since it was one of the best sounding tapes I ever had. Buddy found new awesome tape source, but then just as suddenly lost it, as my buddy knocked up his boss at the worm farms daughter and after the (white wedding) ,no more soup for him as they were ultra religious lol. Still kicking myself for not getting the sources number!
    Best it gets better, they hired us to play at the wedding reception.
    So clueless freaks we were, we bring all our McIntosh amps, JBL speakers, racks of gear etc (basically same stage gear as the boys at the time) to this little fire hall. Of course we dressed up; I had my best pocket tee shirt, Levi corduroys and desert boots on lol.
    So late, and high like usual, we set up and prep and the shrooms are kicking in and we finally get on stage and tune up and 1,2, 3, and turn around and step to the mic and HOW SWEET IT IS TO BE LOVED BY YOU, (figured good wedding opener) and as I finally start to realize the reality of the situation were in as I stare at the mostly old, conservative, suit wearing crowd, now glaring back at us lol, well, it was definitely an interesting evening to say the least lol.
    Just glad I didn’t get the fear onstage!
    But it gets better. Somehow, music for the trad dances etc was never contemplated by anyone, hey we were hippie musicians not wedding planners lol. So during set break we panicked and somehow somebody got a tape deck that we integrated into the PA and the drummer found an Eagles tape in his car.
    So we think, Peaceful Easy feelings a nice song, that’ll work for the new couple to dance to. (Can’t remember what the father daughter dance was).
    So eventually things had mellowed a bit as the civilians loosened up a little and we figured out where we actually were and tried to adjust accordingly lol, and so the dances are going well and then eventually the new couple starts swaying to the mellow vibes of Peaceful Easy Felling as the crowd all smiles looks on, and then…ooops, the line “I want to sleep with you in the desert tonight”…Doahhh Right back in the dog house with the old conservative church crowd once again staring daggers at us, like “yeah ya stupid freaks, that’s what got us here in the first place”!

    For sure one of the weirdest gigs ever, and the last we ever saw of old Druggels again, poor bastard: no more fun, no more Dead especially or rock and roll at all, prolly still working at the worm farm!
    How we used to race around and be in all these crazy situations while tripping amazes me all these years later? Guess practice makes perfect lol.

    5/31/69, good sheet, really enjoyed that one, will have to check out the upgrade.
    But first I’m onto Toga!
    Onward!

  • #184
    Dennis
    Joined:
    Jim City Island 84

    Was there,,,, mostly I remember the bridge you had to walk across. My records show we thought Black Peter was the hit of the day. Playing Eyes right now,,, not a bad recording,,,, but a FAST Eyes.

  • #185
    Forensicdoceleven
    Joined:
    Crazy man crazy...............

    Morning, rockers!!

    For anybody interested in such things, a "new & improved" copy of May 31, 1969 just hit general circulation, courtesy of the kind folks at the GEMS network. Definitely worth a listen and thank you very much!!!

    Some people never go crazy, what truly horrible lives they must live.....

    Rock on!

    Doc
    Out of my mind, back in five minutes............

  • #186
    JimInMD
    Joined:
    Re: City Island, Harrisburg 84

    Not a very memorable show, I liked the 83 show there a little better. Chill venue though.. we had a good time. I think between the bunch of us we could not put the setlist together after the show. Perhaps this shows our state of mind...

    Merriweather was a few days away and they were much better shows which unfortunately let this one slip from memory into the ravages of time.

  • #187
    Oroborous
    Joined:
    Finally

    1984: I’ve made up to Summer tour, which starting on I’m on today, starting with my 40th anniversary of my first time seeing the boys in a foreign country lol.
    Really, in those pre 911 days, for us locals it was more like going to the next county, or state. 6/21/84, complete with THE Band opening, Wavy Gravy, and Kesey was a blast and definitely a good show, but not RJ.
    So my buddy Tree drove us in his lil Bug and we both dropped at the exact international point on the bridge
    (hey if they gave us one of the occasional quick search’s we had nothing in our possession, with plenty of good black hash etc at the show, and we’d be back on the road before things started getting weird)
    so a few hours later, by the time we got there things were definitely getting interesting! I always mix this one up with 87 as our mo etc was very similar.
    But for those who don’t know, the venue was within Canadas Wonderland amusement park. So having to enter in the middle of FAMILIES!!!, ya know, normal people and children! And, all while being in the middle of what seemed like we were in the middle of the real life Flintstones as everything seemed like some kind of Disney land plastic stone prehistoric village lol. I distinctly recall LMAO after getting in and over the fear, thinking, I’m in a Flintstones episode lol. Hey, the fear was real man ; )
    I’m Onto 6/23 as I type, betting Jim was there? Started out kinda ruff but creeping into it, it’s picking up nicely.
    Won’t rehash all of 84 as I’ve previously posted, except just to say similar better overall than expected, with plenty of good ones in April, and the Rocks, especially 6/13, perhaps one of the years best?
    Ok, going native again, sorry for the intrusion, hopefully somebody gets something outta it lol.
    ONWARD! And back to your regularly scheduled POTD!

  • #188
    Oroborous
    Joined:
    And

    So half way through the year, which I’ve been focusing on shows I haven’t heard from,
    Primary: 84 and 94, and
    Secondary: 69, 79, and 89

    So 69 I’m up to November (all the SBs, not many AUDs), 79 I’ve hit all but 1 or 2?, and 89 I’ve only December left, but I need to revisit August in sequence.
    Summer 94 has been a very pleasant surprise! I’m finding the dreaded later years aren’t so bad removed from set and setting situations etc of seeing shows then, as well as being able to finally get better aquatinted with the newer material, which doesn’t bother me near as much, though that chorus on Long Way Home will probably always be annoying lol. Also, three decades has allowed me to catch up with the “industrial” sound lol.
    Though I wouldn’t say anything really was RJ, the consistency etc was much better than I expected. I should mention, I’ve done summer tour complete and just a few miscellaneous, including finally hitting the very fine Boxilla show on 10/1. From what I’ve heard so far I think Dave went to the right house for this one, though the Palace shows, some of Deer Creek, say first or second night of Shoreline, really every stop had at least one show, with most at least decent/good. Only recall third night of Shoreline was sub par with Jer having some vocal flubs. Perhaps the best I heard was from 6/17/94 even though it was an Aud. Think Bluecrow suggested this back aways?
    Awesome rave spaces throughout!
    So if your not a feared and have an open mind, I think there’s some enjoyable shows. They make a great palate cleanse, especially when/if gettin burned out on certain songs etc! And, though the occasional mellowness would of turned me off BITD, now in my sixties, gulp, I find these a nice alternative similar in that sense to 76.

  • #189
    Oroborous
    Joined:
    Try again

    Private Spacley checking in from the wild lands of weird!
    Baltimore 73, fo sure, yet another awesome 73 sequence, and a second set Candyman too! Always dig HCS!
    One could most def argue for a spring box, but I still think the first six shows of the year are the hidden jewel…summer, meh, has big hype shows, but imho the music isn’t as good as the rest of the year, good but…and the fall/winter, sigh…Top Shelf where mama hides the cookies! Or RJ

    I’ve hit 6/5/80 also on my quest, or fools errand? Lol. I definitely dug it, but perhaps a half step behind the previous from the land of Vikings and Deadvikes !

    But, I’m here more to cannonball into the middle of your nice enjoyable flow to report from the wild weird west and Wonderland too.
    Apologies for my side show Bob shit show side trips, but hey, maybe there’s some freak out there who’ll get something outta my frontier adventures?

  • #190
    Oroborous
    Joined:
    Summers here and

    Fudge, just got Hey Nowed on a long post…Murphy’s law?

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Submitted by marye on
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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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Submitted by DeadVikes on Mon, 02/15/2021 - 16:32

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Come on Oroborous, don't delete your post. I did see it. And yes, this is not this day in Grateful Dead History. I never look at that site, so I don't follow what they post each day. Some shows are worth a listen, but variety is welcome for sure.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 08:35

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Ice & Snow kicked me off the internet for a day.
It was tough, let me tell ya.
Not sure how we grew up without this stuff ;)

Or, good thing we didn't have this when I was a kid or I never would've gone outside.

While I was in the wilderness without the internet, there was another Nudie suit sighting.
3/18/73 NRPS show
I'm listening to it now, the NRPS were wearing their Nudie Suits, and Keith, Donna, Bobby & Jerry all join the boys on the stage. They're talking to somebody from the bands and he says "we couldn't get Garcia to wear his though". So not sure if Keith Donna & Bobby have theirs on or not, they'd wear them the next night for the final time.

Pretty neat.

Digging the show, there's a nice FM copy on Archive here if you've not heard it -
https://archive.org/details/nrps1973-03-18.fm.weiner.21538.sbeok.shnf

There's a Willie and the Hand Jive that Garcia plays on.
(Since we've been discussing '86 and the Hand Jive has popped up, figure that was relevant)

The other thing I was learning yesterday without the internet was about the Carousel shows March 29-31, 1968.
Smoking stuff!!
Based on what I'm reading and hearing, I think 3/31/68 is the night Jerry pushed Phil.
You Play Goddammit!
If you want to flip your lid, listen to the Caution from 3/31... GODDAMN!
Some of that was definitely used on Anthem, and it's totally off the rails.
Wonder what the story is on these Reels in the Vault?

Well, there you go.
Who's got a pick?

EDIT - Oh yeah, I started to read up on Nanao but then lost the wi-fi, far out. Strikes me as a peaceful warrior.
Speaking of, you all ever read Peaceful Warrior? I read it when I was a kid, I think Dan Millman was the trapeze artist at the Trips Festival, trippy huh?!?!

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Submitted by Oroborous on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 11:03

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...yeah I know, deep subject (cue rim shot!) hey-ooo.
I see there are dates and ideas, but do we have a pick?

If not I’d like to suggest 2 ideas.
1) 5/3/86 from boxilla. Still haven’t got to this one and all this 86 talk makes me want to try some 86. Also. need my device for other stuff...
2) Capitol 71 run: I know Striders been anxiously prepping for the 18th, and yes though I get bored with same old repetitive anniversaries, this is different. This is like the difference between your unpteenth anniversary, (sorry Love!) and your 50th wedding Anniversary! So since we’ve been floundering a bit lately, how bout we start on the 18th and go the whole Capitol Run. If nothing else it’s like wearing a uniform to work; ya don’t have to think about what to ware in the morning! ; )
Or not, just a thought.

GOGD: have a research project if your interested. I can’t seem to find which Spectrum show had Wrestling before the Dead? I’m sure it was at the Spectrum, but I’m not sure if it was 86 or 87? I tried to cross reference with WWF 86 schedule but no luck, then I ran outta time...maybe their was a different “league” or something? I looked at comments on the archive too, but nobody mentions it? I’m not sure I’ll have that kinda time, but knowing you like to ferret these oddities out, thought you might enjoy it? I know we enjoy your adventures in the pursuit of all things Dead!

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 11:56

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I'll listen to 5/3/86 and I'll listen to the whole Capitol 71 Run.

It's on.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 12:25

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....I'm listening to 12.15.86. Been diving down that '86 rabbit hole recently.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 13:17

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Wonder how often you hear Heads gettin' stoked on '86?

Set 1 from 5/3 is fun.
Set 2 is beginning.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 13:46

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Enough time has passed

3 31 86 should have been on my list earlier

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Submitted by Oroborous on Tue, 02/16/2021 - 15:34

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Not too shabby!
Fun little first, of course 86 short.., good opener for gray cold morning,.second set is pretty good, might go again just cause...Played so loud JGs voice coils seized up, too funny! So far I don’t think I’ve heard a bad show from Boxilla, sure maybe not all killer, but not a bad one so far...
Yeah, diggin the 86, anyone know of any more goodins send em along so I can write em down,
Thanks! I’d say grab another tomorrow before we go down the Capitol hole, but that’s up to y’all, don’t wanna be greedy! ; )

EDIT: add 3/31and 12/15 to list ✔️

I have fond memories of that song deep into the pre-drums set two dogma.. typically filling the Ship of Fools or Sampson segment just before it gets into deep space. There's a Hampton, a Merriweather and an Augusta that come to mind.

Personal to me, but some really fond memories and I still dig this tune.

(edit, I did not make Augusta, still kicking myself in the ass for that one)

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Submitted by Oroborous on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 06:26

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Sounds good DV!
Just got a real gone copy...I’ve had a copy copy, but just today got my hard copy...so it’s a sign!

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 07:28

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50th anniversary tomorrow. So let me throw my lucky Stetson hat in the ring. Tomorrow’s pick , 2/18/71. Will work on some kind of reminiscent writing.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 08:45

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Loud and proud

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 08:48

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As fate would have it, I listened to that recently.

Excellent choice

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 13:52

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Dave's Picks #23! What a high energy show this is. That He's Gone into The Other One. Wow! At almost 40 minutes, I would have been drained at the end of that version, jazzy and spacey.
Fall 72 and this one delivers the whole show minus the encore I believe.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 17:04

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:)))

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Wed, 02/17/2021 - 22:15

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Time for you to go back where you belong.

Looking forward to the Multi Track spectacular 2/18/71.

Ready for this too.

I primed my interest with 2/21 last night into shoveling this morning. My second listen since the reissue, and this one popped on many levels - I got much more out of this than the first listen. This will mark my second listen of 2/18 since the reissue. These releases are gems.

Enjoy all.. we heard from Doc regarding this show on the Dave's Picks thread.. bet we hear from Strider on this one.

Cease the day folks.. make the best you can out of 2/18/2021.

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Submitted by Oroborous on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 07:30

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Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy, big 50th today, I know Striders Stoked ; )
I am too, stoked for some multi-track grooviness! and a great way to kick off the run!
Boo ya, a real Bobbie Dazzler eh!

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 07:47

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I wrote a long piece in pencil before sunrise this morning. I’ve decided to post it on the dead.net page , Grateful Dead 2/18/71 as it will last longer than the American Beauty 50th page and maybe even this pick of the day page. Yes , I’m stoked. Where is Doc@11 ?

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 08:34

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Hola Strider.. looking for your 2/18 recap.. Where did you post it? I looked on the 2/18 page and there is a short paragraph starting with someone attempting to rob you outside the show, "give me your money..." A little scary, but hilarious at the same time.

I enjoy the personal GD stories, especially ones that go this far back.

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Submitted by JimInMD on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 08:34

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In fact.. looking forward to the write-up so much I had to post it twice.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 08:44

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Ditto Jim!

I'm looking forward to Strider's 2/18/71 Liner Notes to enjoy with these tunes.
I think he's working on them :)
This Dark Star is good to listen to.

Speaking of Dark Stars, Rob Eaton is having a hard year so far.
Charlie Miller mentioned he's dealing with the Covid now.
Send positive Vibes Rob's way.
Here's some info and hoping to help spread the word of his GoFundMe if it hasn't already made the rounds -
https://www.gratefulweb.com/articles/dark-star-orchestras-rob-eaton-lau…

Everybody that listens to this music has a lot to thank Rob for and there's good people here.
Send out that joy and reflect some back at him.

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Submitted by Vguy72 on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 09:42

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....I clicked that link, but didn't see anything about Covid. Cool site though. I you scroll down, there some neat GD stuff for sale (I'm looking at you Dancing Bear wine bottle stopper).

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 09:51

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Yeah, way cool site, I need to spend more time digging through it.

Just heard about the Covid news this AM, so wanted to bump the GoFundMe.

F Covid!

You are correct sir.. seems to only be one audience copy that circulates. And it's not great, just ok.

I miss NRPS, RIP John/Buddy. They were endlessly touring before Buddy Cage got sick and were easy to catch.. one of those bands you see time after time and it never got old. David Nelson is still around, but he doesn't seem to make it too far out of CA and HI, and that is back when we used to have live music... And the last time I saw them he seemed a big fragile. They guy is authentic, a living legend in my humble opinion. I was just listening to one of their last studio albums a couple days ago while cooking some dinner. Where I Come From.. a really nice album.

Had a great time with this show today.. did 2/21 yesterday and when 2.18 ended I went right back into the first six or seven songs of 2.21 again. Loved it..

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Submitted by DeadVikes on Thu, 02/18/2021 - 21:38

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Fantastic show. Sound quality is A+. That Dark Star, Wharf Rat, Dark Star, Me and My Uncle are worth the price of admission. And yes, I said Me and My Uncle.
Looking forward to 2/21/71 soon.

So much great music to explore, we are a lucky bunch....... Okay back to try the..

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 07:42

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Listened to 2/18/71 starting at sunset. Then I started 2/19/71 just before midnight (hour) . With first verse of Loser when the clock struck 12 o’clock (High) 2/19/21 finished complete show. Still up before the sun this morning. Listening to 2/19 a second go-round this morning “I know she’s in the world somewhere” . “ I can’t wait that long to walk around the world “. Wow, the original five or as David Gans said ,”the quintessential quintet”. Smokestack Lightning “ is so smooth and driven, bad and beautiful.”

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Submitted by Tom_Tom on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 08:20

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Well I ordered the Dave's Picks Vol.37 the day it came out !...I HAVE NOT Received it, I contracted Dead.net, Only to get a Auto-Reply indicating they would get back to me with in a few days, Needless to say , It was charged to my Credit Card but I never got my CD, Ive had trouble ordering quite a few times in the Past, And now there is NO WAY to call and speak to a Human Being ! Ive been a Dedicated buyer of almost EVERY Dicks / Dave's picks as well as the Road Trips CDs... I do not order the Yearly Subscription for a few reasons , One of them being the cost, I just cant afford it during these troubled times, I prefer to order CDs when they come out Individually,...Now the CD is SOLD OUT...Why is this happening ?..Is it because of the State I live in ? (New Mexico)...I have no other problems when ordering other Items from other Shippers, I am totally Disgusted with the way things are being done at Dead.net and Ive been thinking maybe its time for me just to move on ....(Please excuse my typing, as my computers keyboard is a bit messed up)...THANK YOU ...TOMAS .

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Submitted by Strider 808808 on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 08:41

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I realize I bought the killer vinyl versions of From the Vault (1,2,&3) . Virgin vinyl. That’s five Vs.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 09:08

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If you ordered a la carte, give it a few more days.

The days of talking to real people are vanishing. Like, 98% gone. "Go to our website" is the only option given. But remember, "your call is important to us". Lol...

"Artificial Intelligence" and all that shit.

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Submitted by The Good Ole G… on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 09:22

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Gonna listen to some Grateful Dead today.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 09:53

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I have found a rare dud

9 30 80 through hes gone is "HEY! WHO NEEDS COFFEE?"

Hopefully things will get livelier.

After blissing out to 12 30 79 last evening, this show is quite a contrast.

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Submitted by Oroborous on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:03

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...2/19/71 and let me tell ya...I got no chance of losing THIS time!

2/18/71: upon future review, I’m with DOC 11, it’s a good show, but perhaps a tad overhyped...
I used to feel this way in the past, then when I received the 50th multi tracks, I flipped out at how good it sounds, and really dug it, like top shelf where mama hides the cookies, but now I’m a bit more conservative?
Yassss it’s a sexy show with those 5 newbies, and it has that little but First set Dark Star, with a pretty damn good Rat for first time as the meat in the sandwich (damn this 2/19 Cumberlands good for typing!) and I forgot about the Saint Steve’s, but it’s a bit organic overall; their not that tight on some things and the guitars where more outta tune then I recall.
Now before ya wish upon me eternal damnation, I’m just giving it the critical thinking treatment. I still love it, I enjoy it, especially the multi-track goodness, but I already understand why they picked 2/19 over this one for the vault release, and I’m only up to hurts me too...
But now I’m really itching to do this whole run because it really is the coolest way to compare the shows and get the possible underlying adjustments and evolution etc..
Ok, nuff talk,...shut up and turn it up!

Edit: 2/19 Bertha: whoa, easy there Billy! Just a tad different then the previous night lol..

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:48

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Check out hes gone

Sleeeeeeeeeepyyyyyy....

The next track is awake. My coffee idea worked!

At least for now...time will tell

Coffee courtesy of DarkStarbucks

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Submitted by daverock on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:48

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Orobouros - yes 2/19 sounds of a higher order to me than 2/18. More people on stage for the 18th, and neither adding a great deal, it has to be said. Maybe the others felt the same way as Ned and Mickey only played that first night. Once they were down to the original 5 the sound of 1971 crystallized.

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Submitted by proudfoot on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 10:54

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First set is a melty dream
Second set has the chandelier thing
All those new tunes throughout
And now Saint Stephen without that horrific splice

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Submitted by Oroborous on Fri, 02/19/2021 - 13:18

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Wow..yeah, imho they sound way more together. The previous nights newbies are improved, listen to Phil on Playing both nights, back to back, and compare; there’s more jams; the bacon is greasier, sheeeooot, the Smokestack is worth the price of admission in itself!
That Smokestack was so good I had to listen a second time!
Now, I may know relatively little of 71 specifics, but to me, that Smokestack is THE sound of the Pre KG GD! If someone asked me to play 1 thing as an example of that time I’d have no problem wiping this out! Bobble Dazzler indeed.

The Cryptical suite was, well, pretty sweet ; ) listened to that again too! Also repeats of 1st Bird Song and Deal. Almost hard to believe these are first timers. Easy Wind...fo-git-bout-it! Pass me the napkins! Nice Dark Hollow to provide some variety, and hey, it’s got a Cumberland!
Yeah, 2/18 is a fine show, but this bad boy hangs where mama hides the cookies!
Looking forward to tomorrow 2/20/71 as I’ve not heard that one before...