Pick of the Day, with Discussion

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April 6, 2020 - 9:47am

8,062 replies

marye

Joined:
May 26, 2007

Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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September 23, 2023 - 4:43pm

#811

1stshow70878

Joined:
September 11, 2014

5-10-72 Amsterdam (+ 5-11 Rotterdam)

I really liked this one. Part of that may have been a good focused late night listen. Mix was slightly different with more Bob, maybe less Keith? That highlighted by Bob's interesting work in China>Rider too. They attempted to slow the tempo in the Rider part but not everyone caught the drift there. Maybe I liked it for the set list and song order again which I found appealing in more than one of the tour so far. It does seem to be the difference some times in what I perceive as a good show. Highlights: Loser, Big Boss Man, TOO which was extended and very spacey (one part had the cat looking at me like WTF?) in the first go, then a little jazzy Keith, then a lengthy somewhat quiet interlude before >Bobby McGee>TOO again. Maybe the best Sing Me Back Home so far of the tour. And a sweet but shorter Sugar Mag> NFA> GDTRFB> NFA again to end. Again DeadbaseX way off with setlist out of order and missing songs. Not really counting on that being right anymore. Still plugging away with Rotterdam next but may get stalled Mon. - Tue. with a trip to the Four Corners region. Need us some slickrock and petroglyphs before the weather starts turning.
Cheers
Edit: 5-11-72 Rotterdam. Jeez- Louise! I can see why Oro said this might be his favorite EU72. The whole 1st set is at that slow, let's get this perfect pace and is another killer set that starts with a Playin' so you know it's going to be good. Then this 2nd set starts with a Dew and is monumental with the best DS so far and one that is now in my top 5 of all time and the 2nd set jammed portion runs like 75 minutes! The final Caution/Who Do You Love is a great way to end that song's run. I googled best show of EU72 and this one came up often and is in the top 3 or 4 in most lists. Just a wowzer.
September 23, 2023 - 6:06am

#812

daverock

Joined:
September 1, 2014

Icecrmcnkd

Crumbs...sorry, I wasn't expecting that for an answer. Thanks for the heads up - nice that them upstairs read these posts.
September 23, 2023 - 4:24am

#813

icecrmcnkd

Joined:
October 20, 2015

Daverock

The September GD Bulletin came out yesterday in an email.
At the end there is a section Community Bits that briefly summarizes what it being discussed on these boards.

It says:

In the Pick of the Day, With Discussion thread, Daverock raises the interesting point that for Europe ’72, there weren’t so many Dead Heads in the audience — and that affected the band’s playing. Maybe for the better? What do you think?
September 23, 2023 - 3:22am

#814

daverock

Joined:
September 1, 2014

Icecrmcnkd

Sorry - I'm not sure what that means!
September 22, 2023 - 3:00pm

#815

icecrmcnkd

Joined:
October 20, 2015

GD Bulletin

Daverock gets the call out.
September 22, 2023 - 2:43am

#816

daverock

Joined:
September 1, 2014

Bickershaw and repetition

1stshow -no, I have never heard Hawkwind's set at Bickershaw. Curiously, I have never read anything about it either, not from the band or from people who were there. Simonrob was there - maybe he knows something.
1972 was the year it all came together for Hawkwind, culminating in the Space Ritual tour in December. In fact - a timely thought - the 11 cd special deluxe edition of Space Ritual is out next Friday. Probably not good value for money unless you are really into it - they basically played the same set on that tour wherever they played - this new set features three of them. I'll be getting it - but the original album may be better value overall.

Going back to The Dead's repetitive - or otherwise - song lists - they would have played to a different audience every night, for the most part, during E72, so maybe it mattered less than later on if they played the same songs a lot. Maybe that was the case for American gigs at first, too. It wasn't common practice in England in the 1970's to see the same band twice on the run, so I wouldn't think it was in America at first. As teenager, apart from anything else, I wouldn't have been able to afford it.
September 21, 2023 - 8:50pm

#817

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

Repetitive, Sort of..

With the exception of Copenhagen and London, they hit these cities just once and my guess is most locals had not had any real exposure to the touring Grateful Dead. Copenhagen is the real outlier, two hits at the same venue and similar second set setlists.

I always assumed they wanted to make a presence in Europe and knowing people were not as exposed in the US, wanted to paint a strong picture for each city.

So 51 years later listening to the whole tour, there is lots of repetition. But if you were there then, it was all brand new. That's how I digested it. They wanted to hit Europe with a cohesive picture of what they were doing then not knowing when or if they would return.
September 21, 2023 - 3:23pm

#818

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

RE: repetition

Yeah they always went heavy on what was new. Guessing partly for their own sanity/interest, and partly for the crowds.
Not unlike Taylor Swift etc: make an album, go on the road to support it, rinse and repeat…of course like most things, they weren’t that formulaic, thank goodness lol. Plus, they were smart enough to figure out that it’s better to work stuff out on the road BEFORE you go into the studio to record it, especially when you do constantly tweak and re-invent them. So this tour was perhaps a bit of both lol.
Also, (think we’ve discussed before?) folks didn’t tour so much back then, probably not at all in 1972 Europe?
So they didn’t have to worry about that like they did later on.
Sometimes I think they, or someone, just really enjoyed certain songs, so played en more.
I’d say they played less repetitive in some ways as the years passed and they had more and more songs to choose from.
Ok, maybe not Bob, he seemed to need to play everything to death lol. Speaking of, why Me&My Uncle every night! I mean they just put it out on the last live album only a year before! With so much new stuff as the Dead, and from WM and AB, AND both Bob and Jers recent solo albums, why Bob, why LOL ; ) Perhaps trying to bring more American “culture”?
As far as reinterpreting songs, I think they always did that, though some more than others and with various results.
I guess that’s yet another thing dependent on the listeners taste and chever way yer pleasure tends…
But I’d bet the biggest factor on this tour was trying to get at least one good useable version of all the new material since they purposely chose this methodology to get the new songs out on a new album. That and mix in some familiar stuff as you never want to do all unknown songs. I could tell ya a story about doing that lol
September 21, 2023 - 2:35pm

#819

1stshow70878

Joined:
September 11, 2014

Bickershaw again

Finishing up as I write.
Highlights: Dark Star, The Other One, Lovelight (Jerry!).
The line-up for this festival is astounding. Woodstock level of mud too.
DR, guessing you've heard Hawkwind's performance. Good?
Cheers
September 21, 2023 - 2:20pm

#820

daverock

Joined:
September 1, 2014

Repetition

Is that true, though, that there was more repetition of songs during the E72 tour than others in the late 60's and 70's?
I haven't checked it out, but listening to shows, I always get a sense that they had a core group of songs that they leaned on during specific tours. It was the same listening to the 1973 box that has just come out. There weren't any shows that were wildly different from any other - possibly 6/10/73. That has a different feel than the earlier ones.

That's not a criticism - the more they played specific songs - especially the ones incorporating jams, the better they got to know them and the more they were able to re-interpret them. Part of the ongoing mystery - especially from late 1971-1974. Maybe.

John Perry Barlow

John Perry Barlow

Forums

Currently Listening To...

Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

3 18 71

When Cumberland started, I found myself saying under my breath, "it's got a Cumberland"

Thanks, guys, for putting that phrase into my brain

RCMH

10 26 80

Soundboard

Yummy

Another anniversary

I’m currently spinning 3-20-91.

Will need to investigate 4-14-72 tonight when the beer is flowing.

My My My My

What a smoker 4/14/72 is!

Holy moly.

Great Pick for a Friday DeadVikes, that hit the spot.

Fun write up of this show in Taper's Compendium, and they transcribed Pig's wrap.

Crushing Caution all week and I'm ready for more.

Dig the memories BlueCrow.
Love those shows that hit you in that archetypal center like PANG!
Then when you hear them again, you can picture that moment every time.
Time Travel!!!

That Brown-Eyed Women gets me like that.
My first GD album WALSTIB from columbia records and tapes club.
11 albums for a penny.
And I'm pretty sure that's all I paid ;)
Changed my life.
Who says you can't get anything for a penny?!?!

What's the haps for today?

4/14/72

Agree GOGD, this one always seem to do something for me. Sweet Dark Star,. Sugar Mag, Good Lovin, Caution, Good Lovin sandwich. Still love the Pig Pen led Big Boss Man.

Looks like Conekid offered up 3/20/91. Sounds like a winner to me.

You should give us a pick for tomorrow GOGD.

Okay, so box next announcement next week?

Stay well out there.

3-20-92

released in the big box 30 trips. Really great show from 92, check it out.

No Box announcement yet

Hope Dave didn’t fall into the water and get eaten by sea otters or an orca when he was recording the Box seaside chat.

Well, if he did, the wheel keeps turning and you can’t slow it down. Hand me the Vault keys, I’ll take over and speed up the releases.

Tomorrow's Pick - 9/16/72

Alright, I'll take a stab at it.
September 16, 1972

A partial SBD portion of this show has been floating around for awhile.
But in Dec 2020 we got a much more complete SBD source.
Delivered from an anonymous person that must've had cool friends.
The first 4 songs are missing (there's an audience if you're jonesing) but the majority of this killer show is now ours to listen too.
Hot Damn!

The mix ain't perfect, but this is some killer stuff worth spending some time with if you ask me.

One of my all time fave versions of Playing In The Band.
And the Dark Star > Brokedown nuff said.

Here's a link to the new source on archive, it's on relisten too look for ANON.
https://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-09-16.150979.sbd.mr.flac2444

I highly recommend listening to the PITB > On when you have some time to take it in Dick Latvala still.
Enjoy!

PS - Bob T picked this one back on 9/16/20 but it was before we had this new source.
Wow, It's a great time to be a Dead Head!

9/16/72

On it tomorrow. Thanks for the pick GOGD.

Speaking of Bob t, it has been a little while.

Boston Music Hall '72

September 16, 1972 show is definitely one of my favorite GD shows.

Due to the fact that not much of the show circulated and that it happened during an amazing peak in GD history, I feel like it's way overlooked. Maybe I'm wrong, but I rarely hear it mentioned.

At the time of the Taper's Compendium Volume 1 only the Dark Star circulated.
But that write up alone would make you seek out the tape.
And they didn't even know about all the other killer stuff on here.
Not sure why I find that so cool.

Super stoked to have the majority of the show now.

It's made appearances during 30 Days of The Dead so it's greatness is known.
But given the chance I try and suggest it.
Like today.

At some point the PITB & Dark Star just permeated my mind and every time I listen they take me somewhere new.

Upon repeated listening it can take you on interstellar journeys.

Plus the Don't Ease rips.

Enjoy!

PS - I know we get a lot of NFA > GDTRFB > NFA in these parts, but be sure and give it a listen for some 1 drummer magic and watch for Jerry's solo in GDTRFB, you'll be glad you did.

The other day...

Doc promoted 3 14 71

I stated i remember the compendium being "whatever" about it

I have been listening while treadmilling

It's another very potent 71, well worth a listen or 20

Thank you for the promotion, Doc

Dark Star fix....

....got any of that nightfall of diamonds?

How about...

NOD, Vguy?

10 16 89

9/16/72

Thanks for the pick on this one GOGD. This is a huge show. Just love the Bird Song from this era. Can't remember too many shows with Stella Blue and Morning Dew. Would love an official release of this show.

Am I hearing Nightfall or Diamonds for today?

Stella Obscura

Definitely a monster show!

Glad you dug it DeadVikes.

Not sure the tapes that exist will meet the criteria of official release, so having a majority of this show via SBD is a real treat.

I love it.

Alright, sounds like some October 1989 Dead to start the week.

Happy Monday you all!

Shoot Chip...

Guess I’m gonna have to try and replay 9/16/72?
Besides the Dark Star, which I loved, I was kinda nonplussed by this one...though the Relisten app wouldn’t let me play some tunes, including PITB and Dew. Threw on the Dark Star sequence from 4/8/72 after which seemed like quite the difference? Energy/performance (obviously the sound) As I say, guess I’ll have to give another try....
Perhaps I was subliminally comparing to DiP 36 and 11 which are top favs, same as I do with DiP 23? I like it, but not as much as it’s 2 neighbors....if that makes sense?
Man I’m so far behind.....perhaps I’ll try to ketchup and skip 10/16/89 just cause that’s a big go to...Personally I think it’s one of the best releases they’ve given us; good show, cool sets/songs, good playing and GREAT sound! But I listen to it fairly often so no biggy if I skip it now...
Mañana I hope to have time for a big day...
Oh, did check out through Estimated from 3/20/86 on YouTube Friday night. Meh, didn’t dig it as much as the previous night, though the Box o Rain was cool and did fire a few old synapses, but I still have no clue who I went with etc...
Going to try and inch my way through dead dreams to another land and perhaps hit a show or so a week till I get through all six of my nights on that tour.
But Maybe I’ll try and sneak in that 3/31/86 y’all liked today?
So much Dead, so little time ; )

Sleeper

OB - Not sure why I like 9/16/72 so much, and I think it is kind of a sleeper, but it creeps on ya and if it's got ya, it's got ya good, so I recommend doing it up at just the right time when you can really grok it.

In the meantime, 3/31/86 is super fun, you should hit it.

ConeKidd - I did manage to get in that 3/20/91 yesterday and dug it.

But yeah like you say, so much Dead!
That's my kinda problem :)

a long time ago

3/31/86 on cassette

I was lysergic

and the jam after GDTRFB was spectacular

glorious memories

right now 12/4/79 is playing

the China Rider sounds sooooo good

9/16/72: it's been a while
my memory sez it's hot

I'm doing Nightfall....

....even though, I think this was a POTDWD prior. Boomerang action.
Don't mind if I do!
Cue Picasso.

NoD today

feel like a straaaanger

now it's my turn:

What is POTDWD?

Steal Your Face

Right OFF your head!

That's what happened to me to a T.
34 years ago tonight at the ol Hampton Coliseum.

Jerry was on FIRE.. smiling and moving and shredding.
That place had more electricity than anywhere I'd ever been, and we took that spaceship for a ride.
GA Floor about 10th row.
Never Had Such A Good Time!!
Woot 3/23/87 :)

POTDWD = Pick Of The Day We Done?

Pick of the day with discussion....

....c'mon guys.

Doh!

Missed the "with Discussion"!

Speaking of discussion, I noticed some new Merch on the Dead Store, anybody wanna bet we get an announcement this week?!?!

Let's talk about that WD

GOGD

I sure hope we are not done, this has been a blast. Some days there are several picks thrown out, so it might be hard to follow.

What new merchandise are you seeing?

I will take that bet. I don't think there will be an announcement this week. What is the wager? Signed sealed copy of Dave's #1?

Skeleton Hearts?

It may be old merch from Feb... But I just noticed it.

So I could be wrong.

But... I'll bet that if we don't hear anything this week, I'll give you a copy of the 1970 Trans Continental Festival Express material compilation that I put together. With essentially everything that circulates so far. Which is awesome IMO, BTW.

If we do hear something.. what do I get?

GOGD

Wow, that sounds wild.

Shoot, I don't know. Is there anything you don't have?

Any missing bonus CDs from past releases?

Lossless

I'm working on having everything... mwah hahahahaha!!!

But yeah, there's a few things that I have Mp3 versions of that I want to get a lossless backup for and I'm quite certain we could work out a trade.

You can never get it all.. but it sure is fun trying!!!!

And yeah, the Festival Express comp is killer :)

I saw...

POT DWD
not
POTD WD

POTD...I get that

aging...

I got hit with a wave of sick last evening, and then today. Ever been in a Teams/Zoom meeting and then have to run to vomit?

WEIRD.

I am all better now, after a two hour nap.

Hey Everybody.... Hey Dr. Nick

Hope everyone is doing well.. Sorry i haven't posted in a while... sort have been trapped between the 3 Feb 74 Winterland shows and the 3 March Winterland 77 shows.. I did get the 9/16/72 Boston show in... Great call.. I'm still going with Bolo's buck and a quarter quote as a sign of April 71 box... Happy anniversary Wall of Sound.. Bob t

GOGD

Perfect, than that will be the wager. I hope you win...

Hey Bob t. Spring 71 you say, okay.

DeadVIkes

Rockin'!

Fun. I'd give it to you either way, but it's fun to have something to do ;)

Let's hope for news.. but it's a win, win situation!!

NoD was released 20 years ago

WHA'????????????

10/16/89

tres bien

Oberon Day

‘‘Twas yesterday and the beer store I frequent had a stack of it on the floor.
Grabbed two cases of 16 oz cans.
Tasted awesome yesterday, having more today.

A home without books is a body without soul......

50 years ago today…………….

March 24, 1971
Winterland, San Francisco, California

Set 1: Greatest Story Ever Told >Johnny B. Goode-Next Time You See Me-Loser-Truckin ->drums ->The Other One-Bertha-Sugar Magnolia-I'm A King Bee-Beat It On Down The Line

Set 2: Casey Jones-Hard To Handle-Playing In The Band-Not Fade Away ->Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad ->Not Fade Away

Encore: Uncle John's Band

The Dead return home after a short tour of the heartland.

Another show that only rarely gets discussed. It’s a powerhouse, at times uneven, but with some really sublime moments, including the jam within Truckin’, The Other One (which takes us to many different places), and Hard To Handle. In many ways, it sounds more akin to the powerhouse material that was to come in April, than to the material previously played in March. Did the Dead crank up their game for their home town crowd? Judging from the reaction of the crowd after the fine Uncle John’s Band encore, this show was very well received at the time………………………….

Rock on!!

Doc
He is happiest, be he king or peasant, who finds peace in his home…….

Re: 3/24

I am in the process of tidying up my digital library. Between the time I built it and now, there have been some upgrades.. plus in my earlier days of digital alchemy, I didn't document the source as well as I could have.. so I am revisiting everything.. show by show and making sure I am listening to the best available, always lossless version.
This time, I and am doing a better job documenting. Many of my '71 shows fall into this category.

So anyway, I am trying to upgrade my sources when appropriate and have everything through April ready to spin. I got an early listen 3/24 last night. I completely with Doc on this show. Knowing that Johnny B. Goode from Skull and Roses was pulled from this show plus a few tunes from the Manhattan Center.. wouldn't multi-track reels from Winterland, The Manhattan Center and the FE shows be in the vault? I'm sure this has come up before.. but you don't seem to hear much chatter about bring more from this run onto disc.

Good Ole GD.. I made the March '87 Hampton run myself. Thanks for bringing this run into focus again.

I think BobT must have gotten lost in the woods for a few days, but good to see his triumphant return. I just got a text from someone commenting on the 6/27/84 Merriweather show. That would make a good pick of the day at some point, plus it's been forever since I listened to that one and the recording is good for the era. One other POTD idea is one of the Manhattan Center shows from April (4/4, 4/5 or 4/6).

Been busy lately both trying to get through '71 on time, keeping up here. I am also finishing a pesky renovation side project.. fun with wood. oh.. and it's spring!! so outdoor listening is slightly more palatable.

It’s gonna be a good year.

At least musically speaking :)

1971 is in the air folks!!

Happy Anniversary release announcement day!
3 more announcements coming at some point, with a heavy year planned (says Dave).

Hot Dog!

DeadVikes does that count as calling it?!? (Let's Trade Brother!!)

Doc & Jim - keep it coming you guys, thanks for keeping the spirit of '71 alive.

And always ready to talk about Hampton '87!!!
Third of 3 happened 34 years ago, anyone who was there during Terrapin, knows what I'm talking about.
If you missed it, check out the Miller Ultra and feel the rush.

Good Stuff

Second that / Manhattan Center

On the anniversary’s. For such amazing three Dead concerts, the venue sure bit the baagwan .

Skull and Roses Anniversary

I don't think this counts as a box announcement, and I was of course bummed that it was not the box.

But certainly, whatever you need GOGD, if I have it, it is yours.

So, Jim, are we looking at 3/24/71 for the pick today?

Hopefully, we hit up some Spring 1990 as well this month at some point.

Conekid, yes, can't wait to get my hands on the 2021 Oberon.

Baagwan

Strider hit us up with the scoop on the Manhattan Center. I wanna hear.

DeadVikes, yeah not quite a Box Announcement.
But.. technically I just said "announcement" ;)
So.. I'll PM ya! - EDIT: PM sent bro
However, sounded like they were just getting this one out of the way so they could lay the next big news on us.

7/2/71 tape that is not in the Vault sounds pretty dang good.

This is fun.

Winterland 3.24.71....

....why not? 7.2.71 looks tasty as well.

I’m Game

This JBG offa Skull Fuck was the tune, combined with cosmic lightning, that elevated my love for the Dead over Zepplin and Hendrix. For awhile it was hard to pick my favorite, but this particular tune, which I’d heard a lot before, but on a sunny day in April 78, the third eye aligned with the cosmos and from then on, there was never any doubt of who my favorite band was. Not sure what it was, or why exactly just then, but something just clicked and I made my friend keep playing it over and over, and that as they say was that....until 8 months later when I FINALLY was able to see then live!....then it became worse lol, and I’ve been driving everyone around me nuts ever since!
So yeah, it’s time to finally hear this show!

How About...

How about 6/27/84, Merriweather Post Pavilion today (or both shows) and we can do one of the April 71's from the Manhattan Center run (4/4 through 4/6), Strider's pick. We might squeeze some interpersonal show scoopage from Strider if we are lucky. If he doesn't get around to picking one by the time that run comes around we can figure something out.

Does that work? I haven't listened to 6/27/84 in more than a decade.. and I was at that one. Not sure if I can conjur up some memories or not.. I have more memory of the night before, but it was not as good as the next night.

Anyway, wanna take that route?

Follow ups...

Ok, upon furthur review 9/16/72 resonated more the second go around. Being able to play PITB and Dew etc, that I couldn’t get to play the first time made a big difference (imagine that ; )...and that Dark Star, man I love those 72 Dark Stars! That was worth the price of admission alone! Still not sure I’d rank this show as high as you GOGD, but it’s definitely a keeper lol...

3/31/86: yowsa! Really dug this one; snappy, fun show, cool set lists and good performance.
Need to dig deeper into 86. Saw 6 in March, and 5 in June but don’t recall much and only have a general “overall” view of the shows....so far this one was great as well as the tour opener on 3/19. 3/20 didn’t seem to stand up as well, even with the big reveal, enjoyable, but didn’t seem to click as much....looking forward to checking out 3/21 if it’s on YouTube...

Fun

3/28/86 s2 is killer, dig the Supplication jam from 3/27/86 too.

So what's the pick today?

I wrote down 3/24/71
But Manhattan Center mentioned and Jim's talking Merriweather 6/27/84

Or is gonna be a mega blow out Wednesday ;)

BTW Love me some 6/30/84 that one is imprinted into my brain.

..Plus

it's got a Cumberland.

6/27/84

Looks cool, I’ll try and squeeze that one in also...
I’ve had some other random ideas that perhaps we could explore before we take the 71 dive again;
- 4/9/82 just cause I haven’t heard it in forever
- 8/21/72: cause it’s got a 72 Dark Star I haven’t heard yet and I’ve only heard the 25th
- 7/7/81: I’m only familiar with the second set which is good, so why not?
- 11/20/78: don’t know anything about this one. It just looks interesting on paper...
- 8/6/82: did we ever do this one? Like the next night and I thought someone mentioned this one, so...

Ive rarely made picks...mostly cause by the time I get up you guys have already listed to half a show lol...
But I tried to go off piste a bit and see if I can stump the panel! Just some ideas, perhaps we could mix some of these into the flow as we go, you and I, while we can...