Grateful Dead

You are kind soul.. I appreciate all you provide here. Same goes to Oro. I think it would take a face to face to catch me up on all the technology (old or new) that the two of you bring for me to truly understand. As for old.. and I am sure you both know.. in either late 73 or early 74 (I think 73).. the GD got into a scuffle with DOD over equipment they were ordering that was desperately needed for national security. Apparently, the Macintosh amps they were buying in unprecedented numbers were needed both in general and more specifically by special, top secret subs that needed the clean sound and amplification to either detect enemy interference or better hear and make stealth the noise they were making. So they called the GD and tried to work out a way to either stall, postpone or barter a purchasing arrangement that would not jeopardize national security.

I think this is well known, and I apologize in advance for going on memory and surely confusing some of the information listed above as fact. ..but what is written is pretty close, if someone can clarify and correct it would not offend me in the least.

Hope I didn't write anything that was incorrect or in any way interpreted as insulting or offensive.

As for chainsaws and sawzaws to clear way for our living room WOS.. what could possibly be more fun.

Ah the sounds of my earliest fun dentist. "You dont need no gas!"

All my stereo stuff is old, always fussy. Running all old Yamaha into JBL (plus svs). Trying to get stuff cleaned and parts replaced. When it is on, it is quite the stereo indeed. I have an old yamaha eq that I hooked up when Dave's first show was released. Goes into Pre amp, then to a yamaha mx-830. The MX-830 is powering 4 jbl g300's and 2 jbl LX 600's. Running 6 speakers means the amp is running at 550 watts at 2 ohms. It cooks. The speakers all have same tweeters and mid ranges. The 300s run 8" woofers and the 600s have 10 inch woofers. It is old but as you say "in budget." Smile.

edit:
Then the svs has a 550 watt continous, 850 watt peak sledge. The svs I picked up a few years back for $399. I had to have a sub with an internal crossover. So out of preamp to svs (rca cables), then back into the preamp, then to amp. Having old yamaha means older connection points. Modern amps control the crossover themself and pump sub out already crossed over. I happen to run my internal sub amp at a cutoff of 82 hz. George Lucas uses 80 hz crossover in his THX sound systems. So I am slightly above that. I did some sampling of the room using the preamp features.

G

Neanderthal's use chain saws.. a sophisticated audiophile attacks their living rooms delicately with a sawzaw.

I'm totally jealous.. I am blasting with my 20 year old Denon, similar age speakers with no intents on upgrading anytime soon. Budgets be budgets..

Can you imagine writing the real equipment book? With the constant upgrading of the system, that book would be multiple enormous volumes. Hope the Meyers have logged a lot of their research.

No 18's here. Of course not needed.

Back last year, Oro, you asked if I was running multiple subs. I am not. I have a 12" SVS Systems sub with built in Sledge D amp. It is like the rabbit, it is a thumper. Goes down to 13 or 15hz, so below the 20hz of human hearing. That is, if all memories about frequency response are still good. Starting to get the old enough to question my own thoughts at times.

I am still hoping for the day when we can listen to WoS through a system that takes us to the "Fare the Well" P.A.. Would have to be software based, but I look at it like 4K upcoding an HDTV signal.

Wow, FTW PA is now 7 years ago. Bet the Meyers' have gone way beyond that. I almost applied for a job at Meyer 7 years ago. Was in my career field. POTHead.

That 2015 system had multiple flying 18's. It also had a load balancing system. This was done by having 2 systems, intake and outake. That is, they had 100 microphones throughout the stadium to push into the analytics software. Of course, the output systems was not connected except thru analytics, to the input system to avoid feedback. Brilliant. The analytic input system could then be used to balance the PA by section of the of the stadium.

Sorry for interruption but I wanted find the article on pro sound web about 2015 FTW PA.

I did actually find it, but not by searching pro sound web, but by searching internet at large and it found it on the pro sound web site, even though pro sound web could not find it in its own search.

Let me know, maybe I can send lynk thru PM here, not sure if they cut that off.

Any way need to do a little work after lunch. I mean a little work.

G

That’s what chain saws are for!

Gary, I think besides trying to keep up with Garcia, Phil was using that big system on stage to help fill in those near field areas (up front etc) we were discussing, the areas that didn’t get proper coverage from the PA?
What some refer to as the Phil Zone, though to me that’s was where both his stage sound and the PA sound merged and acoustically coupled.
But yeah, My spine tingles and can still feel rather than hear those sub frequencies in my DNA. (By sub I mean below the threshold of hearing, not a subwoofer). Those Meyers 18”s in the PA were ridiculous in the right spot, in the right venue etc.
Plus, it’s the Grateful Fucking Dead so why not go big!

PS, that Grateful Dead gear book is great, though a little dialed down.

Home version. 18"'s and 4"'s. If I move some things around, they should fit.

thanks for the write-up, input. Need a little time to read again and ponder. Think again we are speaking the same language but as 90% of communication is non verbal, some times the written language let's us down.

It seems I have the dead's equipment book, need to track that down. Not necessarily for this discussion but just to find it again...

Should have figured Phil would use Meyer systems. Using 18's onstage, wow!

Hope all well your way!

G

As of late 82 or early 83 Phil was using 4 Meyers cabinets: (4 -18”, 4 -15”), 2 per cabinet powered by custom PIE amps, until they started not using speakers on stage in 92. (Which I didn’t like).

Not sure I get all what your saying? I agree that Soundboards do not sound natural for many reasons.
Perhaps your referring to the phenomena of Microphones not having frequency response to accurately record bass waves combing sub sonic frequencies at those kind of SPL levels?
Mic location can also make a big difference and was partly why Dan started the tapers section. Unless you have the right knowledge and equipment chances are a recording made too close will mot sound good.
Plus you have the physics: the lower the frequency, the longer the sound wave. If your too close you’ll not hear the fully formed bass note etc.
In fact if your too close much of the PA sound will blow right by you. You’ll also not properly experience stereo imaging. That’s why usually, the sound board or just before it was THE place to be. It was a trade off going up front: yeah you were up close and could see and hear their stage sound, but the PA mix was so above and beyond you that you missed a lot of info. Eventually they added little Meyers boxes, usually sitting on the front of the stage to add some vocals etc for those up close.
Nothing comes for free! Personally, like Bear, I didn’t like the stereo set up because of this. Unless you were in the right spot, you missed a lot of info, especially if you were sitting on the side!
This was the main reason Reserved seating sucked: nobody could sit where they wanted so if you were a sound nut like us, you often had to endure less than perfect sound/mixes.

I listened to 1988-10-15. Once Friday, Second Saturday. Two different sources although both said the Ultramatrix board, the first was much muddier than the second. Best highlight was the deep garbled voices toward the end of drums. Really bizarre, and reminds me of garbled voices during latter Star Wars during broken transmissions, and reminds me of the fellas ties to Lucas, the lightgiver.

I was very disappointed in both versions as the show is missing a whole lot of data/music. What I mean by this is, I am wondering if there is fallout from the phil zone? I am positing that as the Phil Zone expanded, Healy lost control of the overall sound. If memory serves at some point it seems I remember maybe Phil using 18" woofers onstage. For sure he was using 15's (plus 12's and 10's). Now I loved my bit of time I spent in the Phil zone, but generally when I got up close, it was Jerry side. As Phil blasts his horn, this means Healy had to bring Phil down in the overall P.A. mix. In my humble opinion, I believe this led to the bad tape sound, lots of data/music missing. When I focus my ears, I can tell that much of the overall lower sound waves are missing or nonexistent. Even worse, the frequencies that are there are very muddled and indiscernible.

Now as a way to test my theory, I listened to 1988-03-27, Hampton. Another group of shows I saw in 1988. I did see 8 Dead shows there and fully know the quality of the sound that can be obtained within the mothership. (Also saw the shows that make up "Hampton Comes Alive..") When I listened to March 27, the sound is very good. However, although not as bad a St.Pete, there is again a large amount of data/music missing as well. The imaging is excellent but that is because the imaging comes from the higher frequencies. Bass frequencies are much more omni- directional, whereas high frequencies are unidirectional. (Want to press on these concepts furthur, later on. I want to go back to some discussions back in October regarding HDCD.) If my hypothesis is correct, then the tape anomalies concerning extremely muddled low frequencies will test out thru other 1988 shows. Had not heard or noticed this until this past weekend. So for St. Pete, it not only causes Phil to be muddled (deep booming bass with no clarity to individual notes played), it also means some muddleness from other players/instruments. I believe this may be the reason why 1988 recordings may all need matrix recording.

Just one man's opinion, would like to know what others thought.

Both Hampton and St. Pete were excellent shows when you factor other aspects than just the quality of the reproduced sound on tape. One reason I love the later shows is because the P.A. quality produces a much more full bodied, across frequencies, sound than do earlier performances. Early performances are fire from perfomance, latter shows have more depth and clarity in the frequency spectrum, hence DaP#40.

Ok enough for now.

G

I was there.. It was so hot at the start of the show... Close to 100... Really enjoyed the long scarlet>fire popping up in the 4th slot.... Drove straight to Louisville after the show... why oh why.