Dave's Picks Vol. 38: Dave’s Picks Vol. 38: Nassau Coliseum, Uniondale, NY 9/8/73

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April 30, 2021 - 9:20am

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Dead Admin

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"When it came to 1973 Dead, I was always drawn to the big second-set jams, 'Dark Star' or 'The Other One,' and all of the places those songs could go that year. One week during my initial stint with the Dead, Dick was spending a lot of time listening to 9/8/73, and he could not stop raving about it. He was very intent on pointing out that despite the absence of the 'Big Two' from 1973, every song, every solo, every moment was out-of-this-world excellent. He played me the first set, giving a play-by-play of each song and what made it special. In those listening sessions, Dick taught me a lot about how to listen critically and objectively. Of course, the subjective self always creeps in, those moments when you whoop and holler at how good a performance is, but that objective listening is critical. After many days of listening, Dick moved to other eras, as was his wont, since he carried the responsibility of selecting the best Dead shows from all eras to represent the Dead’s recorded legacy. But he made it clear and inarguable that he felt 9/8/73 was one of the best-played shows from one of the Dead’s best years." - David Lemieux

Despite the gloriously blustering artwork above, the forecast for DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 38: NASSAU VETERANS MEMORIAL COLISEUM, UNIONDALE, NY, 9/8/73 is blazing hot! With a double endorsement from archivists Dick Latvala and David Lemieux, you know it's a MUST HAVE. This one's got inspired playing from start to finish, with soon-to-be-minted Wake Of The Flood classics, a first-ever "Weather Report Suite," Keith polishing his chops on "Let Me Sing Your Blues Away," Jerry tapping into era-defining sound with his Wolf guitar, and we'd be remiss if we didn't mention Bob's exquisite playing too.

Among our 2021 Dave's Picks subscribers? The subscribers-only bonus disc featuring nearly an hour and a half from 9/7/73 is coming your way too. (P.S. there's 35 minutes of 9/7/73 on Dave's Picks Vol. 38, to boot)

Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 38: NASSAU VETERANS MEMORIAL COLISEUM, UNIONDALE, NY, 9/8/73 was recorded by Kidd Candelaro and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman.

Didn't subscribe? You'll want to jump on this one now as it is guaranteed to sell out.

*2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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May 20, 2021 - 6:06am

#1351

Angry Jack Straw

Joined:
October 2, 2012

Speakers

Get a pair of the Dominator MX-10s. That will solve the problem.
May 19, 2021 - 10:25pm

#1352

DeadVikes

Joined:
October 26, 2016

Carlo

Carlo,

Ha!

Man, we need a box announcement. How about tomorrow or today depending on your time zone. Let's get it out Thursday, May 20.

And stop yelling out songs we already played tonight.
May 19, 2021 - 10:08pm

#1353

carlo13

Joined:
April 26, 2017

Tea

I remember once at a giant's stadium show, I meet this chick who offered me some mushroom tea and being new to this way of consuming shrooms, I sat in my car staring up at the ceiling and realizing I swigged too much. I then started to hear the show beginning but I waited it out till I could contain myself. I finally got out of the car feeling enough time had passed and realized that the music was only a boom box playing a dead tape next to my car. I felt like a total doorknob and never mentioned it to anyone till now.
May 19, 2021 - 9:30pm

#1354

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

Re: Oro

It sounds to me like your bass cabinets are not tall enough. A standing bass wave is 17 meters in height.. you need bigger speakers, stacks of them, preferably able to play in quadraphonic.. one 17 meter stack for each string of the bass guitar.

That is all. See my previous post on what measures to take to make this problem go away. Don't forget to destroy the credit card.
May 19, 2021 - 5:47pm

#1355

estimating prof

Joined:
February 6, 2013

It's the tapes man...

Great discussion going here. I can't resist getting drawn in with my own 2 cents.

Caveat emptor - I am not an audio engineer or expert in such areas. I do listen to a lot of music and grateful dead shows.

My two cents is the audio "distortions" that we have commented on here are in the source recordings of Sept 8 1973.

Why do I think this?

- Dick talked about releasing this show in the 90s and Dave says it's one of his favorite 73 shows, and it was just now released 20 some years later. If you've followed Dave for any length of time, you know that he doesn't release shows with lesser audio quality unless he really has to. He's also too good of a salesman to come out and say "we didn't release this until now because the tape has some issues. Jeffrey worked on it again and says it's as good as it's gonna get, so we're releasing it because it's A Tremendous Show"...Right?

- Seems to me on any given night a recording of a grateful dead concert might not be perfect because those involved in making it were distracted - for any number of reasons.
In the grand scheme of things, it's seems to me much less likely that we would end up with as many really good recordings as we have. They stopped caring about recordings for a lot of the 80s and a lot of those tapes don't have good audio - compared to a Betty board.

- My experience with this release is that the recording of 9/8 sounds significantly different than 9/7.
9/8 was indeed jarring when I first put it on.

All that said, it really is a fantastic and unique show. I've been loving it. I listened to discs 2 and 3 at proper volume with some beverages last weekend and it knocked my socks off again.

Just can't resist a good mystery.
May 19, 2021 - 4:50pm

#1356

Sixtus_

Joined:
November 8, 2014

ORO

I bow to my new sound technician overlord.
What a fantastic and forensic analysis.
Bravo.

Sixtus
May 19, 2021 - 4:38pm

#1357

icecrmcnkd

Joined:
October 20, 2015

Nice work detective Oro

Caveat emptor indeed needed
May 19, 2021 - 4:18pm

#1358

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

Sorry/thanks..

I’ll go back to lurking now ; )
GO AVs!
May 19, 2021 - 4:17pm

#1359

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

Caveat Emptor Indeed!

DaP 38
No doubt Mike, but I think some of us were concerned it was a production issue versus usual GOGD zits and all..
But!,

After furthur review, I think this is just a perfect storm of normal, smaller issues that combined can be very noticeable and thus annoying.
I think perhaps this was a case of a great show, but not the best source? Perhaps the ravages of time were more than they considered, but bye the ticket...once committed, they had to see it through?

Examples you say? Since I spent all day...
$ = quick and dirty references if you don’t want the full report lol ; )
BERTHA starts with usual opening idiosyncrasies that are not part of our focus except in how these “usual” suspects interact and combine with our target issues. Listen though to the snare, and eventually the Hi Hat (that shows up more later). Part of the problem is the snare wires resonating and bleeding through other mics. Then you throw in Bob who’s really loud. It seems his speakers must be set up in front of Billy somewhat as Bobs guitar seems to exasperate the snare problem...
You can really hear this in the quiet just after the song when Bobs banging some chords, listen to the snare wire rattle etc! It gets better but I think it’s a reoccurring ingredient of this aural stew. Bobs level and distortion (both intended and otherwise) are another stew ingredient.
Listen to both guitars and keys during the instrumental section. Think this is more normal type distortion but again, adds sometimes to the stew...

ME & MY UNCLE: more of the same early in especially...I found it useful to use my balance control throughout and it’s often the right channel where the problems mostly live.
By SUGAREE it sounds like maybe some kind of processing added for the snare issue? Early on not too bad, occasionally usual type moments of old R& R tape and/or guitar distortion, but around 6:18 you can hear some noise on the snare roll etc, by 6:23 through 6:33 you can get a good taste of the overall phenomena. But generally the song wasn’t bad.
Status quo fir next couple, LL RAIN I seemed to notice the Hi Hat more prevalent and adding to and getting snare bleed etc. Made me think there’s something up with one of the Drum overhead mics? If so, bleed from everything! would exasperate an issue there? Perhaps another stew ingredient...Bob has some noticeable distortion, perhaps “normal” around 3:45 or so and 4:40+. It overall kind of kicks in on the end chorus’, but not too bad overall.
JACK STRAW not so bad, a little somethin round 3:40 with snare/hat/cymbals?
Also, I think this show suffers overall from the goofy custom condenser vocal mics that add to our stew. Listen to the end of Row J between the 8:30 and 9:00 mark...
Let It Grow is overall not too bad. Get usual Phil spikes occasionally on peaks, and my notes suggest that I’m convinced much of the “problem” here and throughout is Bobs too loud? Not sure if too loud is correct, perhaps he’s playing really loud (it was a big hall with loud NY crowd for that period?) and the recordings fine, your just hearing his rig distort? But though I really dig his sound and prevalence in the mix, cause he’s killing it, perhaps he’s occasionally a tad loud relative to other sources? (Good example in upcoming tape splice)
Oh, and what the hell was that weird “organ” sound starting around 12:55 or so lol, certainly not a B3! Pretty wild whatever it was.
ROLLL OUT the Barrel sounded pretty good lol.
EYES you can get a good taste during the instrumental section around 2:30..and a good example of normal piano clipping (sensitive pickups), but then he switches to ? guessing the Rhodes, which occasionally has its own distortion characteristics, but this is more of what I call normal stuff.
Listen around 9:40+ for what I call FM like static. This is another stew ingredient that is harder to hear, not always there, but there on occasion?
More of the same minor stuff through to about 3:30 in BIG RIVER, though Bob goes way outta tune at 2:25 in GSET and seems to take a few tunes to fully get back lol.
$ LET ME SING is perhaps the best overall example of many things going on on this release. This and $ CHINA CAT are the most obvious examples of the idiosyncrasies on this release. Check out LMS at 2:00 mark and at the end etc.
check out Weirs intro licks to China Cat and some of that drum stuff at 1:30+...eventually it gets better and by RIDER it’s sorta status quo again (meaning instances but nothing huge).
From there on I mostly stopped with notes and just listened, though $ Trucking, GDTRFB etc are good examples of the “stew” especially the blending of the cymbally snare FM static with Bobs distortion whether intentional or not, it all adds up.
EDIT: $$$ end of show especially One Mo Sat is really dirty all the way around, and
TRUCKIN’ TAPE SPLICE? $$ Check out how “it” almost disappears at 4:56, actually something starts to be tweaked a little before that? Bobs not there at all until around 6:00 but he’s back at 6:22. Sounds like a tape splice, perhaps using a cassette, or perhaps some processor kicked in and out, but what’s most interesting is listen to Bob comparatively during these 2 sections, before, during, and after, it’s amazing how much different the 2 sound, especially Bob, and seemingly our phenomena too!
By George I think we’ve figured most of this out!

Conclusion: it’s the battered old tape, complicated by a perfect storm of minor, often normal anomalies, and an unusual Weir mix for good or for ill, and when occurring simultaneously, often during song peaks, it can unfortunately be distracting.
Listening equipment, environment, and personal habits no doubt play a roll in individual experiences. I can see how many folks might not notice much of this.
But on revealing equipment with certain ears it can be so obvious as to be jarring on first occasion.
Like many uncertainties, once the knowledge is gained, the dissonance is usually manageable. Getting better with every listen, though at low volume : (
VERDICT: Caveat Emptor indeed, but with perhaps an extra pinch...

EDIT: this in no way shape or form describes the musical content, which is superb!
May 19, 2021 - 3:09pm

#1360

That Mike

Joined:
November 1, 2014

Point Set Match to Oro

Oro - That is quite a great dissertation on sound production! You know your stuff!
I’ve never had the ear of a Brian Wilson/George Martin, and I know Dick’s & Dave’s come with the odd hiccup and blemish, but at the end of the day, it’s The Grateful Dead.

John Perry Barlow

John Perry Barlow

Forums

Dead Store Products

"When it came to 1973 Dead, I was always drawn to the big second-set jams, 'Dark Star' or 'The Other One,' and all of the places those songs could go that year. One week during my initial stint with the Dead, Dick was spending a lot of time listening to 9/8/73, and he could not stop raving about it. He was very intent on pointing out that despite the absence of the 'Big Two' from 1973, every song, every solo, every moment was out-of-this-world excellent. He played me the first set, giving a play-by-play of each song and what made it special. In those listening sessions, Dick taught me a lot about how to listen critically and objectively. Of course, the subjective self always creeps in, those moments when you whoop and holler at how good a performance is, but that objective listening is critical. After many days of listening, Dick moved to other eras, as was his wont, since he carried the responsibility of selecting the best Dead shows from all eras to represent the Dead’s recorded legacy. But he made it clear and inarguable that he felt 9/8/73 was one of the best-played shows from one of the Dead’s best years." - David Lemieux

Despite the gloriously blustering artwork above, the forecast for DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 38: NASSAU VETERANS MEMORIAL COLISEUM, UNIONDALE, NY, 9/8/73 is blazing hot! With a double endorsement from archivists Dick Latvala and David Lemieux, you know it's a MUST HAVE. This one's got inspired playing from start to finish, with soon-to-be-minted Wake Of The Flood classics, a first-ever "Weather Report Suite," Keith polishing his chops on "Let Me Sing Your Blues Away," Jerry tapping into era-defining sound with his Wolf guitar, and we'd be remiss if we didn't mention Bob's exquisite playing too.

Among our 2021 Dave's Picks subscribers? The subscribers-only bonus disc featuring nearly an hour and a half from 9/7/73 is coming your way too. (P.S. there's 35 minutes of 9/7/73 on Dave's Picks Vol. 38, to boot)

Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 38: NASSAU VETERANS MEMORIAL COLISEUM, UNIONDALE, NY, 9/8/73 was recorded by Kidd Candelaro and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman.

Didn't subscribe? You'll want to jump on this one now as it is guaranteed to sell out.

*2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

First in line!....

....i waited all night to get front row tix.

Let the Good Times Roll...

Cannot wait for the Seaside Chat!!!

Woohoo

Security was not, front row! Woohoo!

How will Dave make us laugh/smile this time ; )

Glass ordered....

....and I caved and got the shirt too. Figuring how a probably saved a lot of money the past year by not going to concerts, I figured I would splurge on myself. Shirt looks cool.

Subscribers bonus disc bonus

I got a bonus sticker with the bonus disc.

Been Waiting for This One

Gave #37 a re-listen last night, really looking forward to this one though. Long tent pole show, first in a while.....

Doooaaahhh!

Dave you b******d, didn’t even give us a crumb, LOL.
Just “it’s gonna be a good year”, ssssshhheeeoooottt, it’s May already,
some of us might not make it ; )

In the mean time, I do luvs me sum 73!

Cover/Weather Girl

Lol, thought that was Ann Coulter...

Hah

It does look like Ann "Skelletor" Coulter...lol

#38: An Excellent Choice, Indeed...

An excellent choice, Dave. Best guitar separation of Bobby and Jerry ever. Ramble On Rose, as noted, really highlights.

Bobby is best heard with a piano rather than an organ, which almost totally washes all his chord comping. No crowd noise either.

As I said at the beginning, excellent choice, Dave. What else ya got?

Byrd

High hopes for this one

I'm looking forward to this release more than I have any other for quite some time. I think the fact that I didn't subscribe meant that I might miss out - so when my payment finally went through I felt more appreciative than I normally do

9/7/73 Song List

Can someone who has received theirs please share with us the song list?
Sounds like potentially a couple hours worth...though if you add the 2 9/7 songs listed on the track listing for DaP 38, that’s about 32 minutes. The written description near page bottom says about 35 minutes, and Dave says about 40 minutes...yes I am greedy and want every luscious moment I can get ; )

Listen Up!

Listening party soundz a lot like DP #37...

Listen up

I haven’t listened but it looked funny; like, where’s the Candyman?
Ooopppss

Giddyup

Always nice to have these new releases going into a weekend so they can get their due (Dew?)
Bonus disc is niiiiiice.

Also got mine in a very tightly sealed carboard box, which was in a green plastic bag. No chance it could get accidentally damaged or wet unless it was a steamroller. So odd there are clearly differing levels of attention in this detail as they go out.

Sixtus

glass ordered!!!

glad i caught this one.

well here it is!

Ok...got mine today...will give 'er a spin...one thing though...I noticed for # 37 and the new one that they now ship in flimsy plastic mailers that offer no protection...previously we were getting them in small sturdy cardboard mailers...I'm afraid that with these plastic bags someone is going to get a damaged set...just my two centavos...excuse me now...gotta spin this before wifey gets home from work...

Nappy

My DaP 38 was in a cardboard box which was then in a plastic bag.

Oro,
Most of Set 2 is on the bonus disc (I think, don’t have it in front of me). Bird Song is filler on CD2 and Playing is filler on CD3.

Edit:
There are 2 Stella Blues too. Played two nights in a row.

Wrong Listening Party sample

The Listening Party - nice though it is - consists of, as remarked earlier, tracks from DP 37, to wit, Let It Grow, Deal (end of set 1), and Candyman (track 3 from set 2).

But as my copy of DP 38 hasn't arrived yet, I'd like to hear the WRS, Ramble On Rose, and He's Gone.

No Shipping Notice Blues

38 is now on sale to the general public and still no shipping notification for me in Denver. Don’t leave me hanging Dave! Excited for this release

me too MDA

wheeeeeerezzzzz my copy???

gimme gimme gimme
I need some more
gimme gimme gimme
don't ask what for

listening party....

....i think they posted the wrong show.
edit. Ah. I see some of you have already noticed this.

It would be a really nice t…

It would be a really nice t-shirt too, if it didn’t have Dave’s name plastered across the front. Is it a Grateful Dead t-shirt or a Dave t-shirt? Who the fuck knows? Take your pick.

Sound

O.K. I gave it a second lesson on a different stereo system altogether. The first was with four speaker surround-sound, the second with just floorstanding speakers. I can still hear some kind of distortion or something going on. At first I thought it was the cymbals being too high in the mix. Not sure what it is.

Overall an excellent release. But, the sound quality keeps it below DaP5.

Wrong Listening Party Tracks

I'm calling BS on the listening party tracks. The LIG is clearly from '77 era shows. And the other two tracks [ROR/He's Gone] don't match what's actually included in the stream. What do I win Jim?

audio issues

Very brief comment, as I have only had a chance to listen to first disc... the distortion I hear most shows up most clearly on some vocals, for example, esp. Jerry on Sugaree... mikes seem to be bit over modulated, levels a tad too high. The sibilants (Shake... juSt... Sugaree... ) usually will show it, could be a too close encounter with the mike, because its not heard on all sibilants... just SSSSSayin'

Seaside Chat

Is that a Taylor Swift t-shirt underneath there?

After looking thru all the…

After looking thru all the stuff in the Store, I think a name change to the Daveful Dead is probably in order. We never had an Owsley, Candalario, Healy, Betty, Bob, Bobby, Jerry, Phil, Billy, Mickey, etc., Dead, but hey, now, times change and who the hell will all be around to argue once the lawyers are done.

The second part of the…

The second part of the listening party (Deal, Candyman) might be from Dave's Picks vol. 37!
In this very moment I realize Deadeasy posted the same!
Well in 2 hours it's May here in europe!
Love
RNB

Double twist when you hit the air

Bonus disc filler Schwing

Bird Song ** Playing in The Band
Let It Grow -> Stella Blue
Truckin -> Drums -> The Other One Jam -> Eyes of the World -> Sugar Magnolia

Probably one or two more songs with the big jams. There's a lot of good stuff from 9/7/73 first set. Hopefully it's a couple of these They Love Each other El Paso or Row Jimmy Looks Like Rain back to back combo. There's been some smoking jams from 1973 on the tapers section here recently and these two nights at Nassau Coliseum have some of that same stardust

Great art!

Love the nod to David Byrd’s poster for the Nassau shows in March on the 15th & 16th, (and then a third night on the 19th not mentioned on the poster), with the folks in the background! He’s Truckin’ and She’s Posin’ as Byrd’s poster says next to these same characters! Excellent work Helen Kennedy!

Thanks Conkid/mbarilla

....was hoping Here Comes SS might of made it : (

Liner Notes

I have known Jay Kerley for going on 50 years. The man is in the know. Pretty sure I went to more Dead concerts over the years with Jay than anyone. Big up!

Oops, my bad...it IS in a…

Oops, my bad...it IS in a cardboard box inside the plastic bag...duh on me...

The Deal on that listening…

The Deal on that listening party, sure sound a lot like something from say 1978 when Donna is screeching towards the end of the song. I've never heard that in prior years and certainly not 1973.

Listening Party is fixed now

Thankfully. Just finished it. Gorgeous He's Gone and Ramble On Rose, and a mighty fine debut of Weather Report Suite. Always been a fan of the whole thing more than what I feel is more abrupt and incomplete Let It Grow. Which, I still would have been pumped for a Let It Grow, especially set closer, but my introduction to the song was Jazz is Dead in 1999 when I heard their ripping jazz fusion instrumental version with Jimmy Herring playing the vocal lines, as well as searing leads and rapidfire rhythm https://youtu.be/UzpeMhtxrF4
I was blown away. Within the year, I happened upon the newly released Dick' Picks 14, which apparently was the last one to come out while Dick was still around, and here was 4cds of this band I had some familiarity with (Cornell, 3/1/69, 9/3/77), and here were 2 shows from an era I didn't have with songs I had just gotten to know in an instrumental jazz fusion fashion. And this set had not one, but two versions, and two Playing in the Bands, and opened and ended with Morning Dew. All there at Best Buy for like 25 bucks. So, made the easy call, and while I enjoyed the set a lot, it didn't initiate the deep dive into the Dead that took about a decade to really commence. And by that point I was catching up on DiP 12 with the monster WRS> Jam> US Blues, and the Winterland '73 box with its three excellent WRSuites, so this release is right in my wheelhouse. Can't wait for it to arrive. Received a shipping notice about 1am, still no tracking, but one can hope it's already out and about looking for me. The Listening Party was a good snack...

Oh, and was able to get another glass, so two for two thus far, and also got the shirt. Liked the look of it, and it not having a skull on it may allow me to wear around the wife without her pointing out the shirt I have on has a skeleton on it.

alvarhanso's wife....

....reminds me of my wife.

Eyes

The eyes from the bonus disk is real fine. Jerry really hits the high notes at the 16:55 minute mark. I also picked up the t-shirt which I love. P.S.- Is it me or does the crow on the bonus disk have a couple of claws twisted 180° in the wrong direction?

Not to spoil the party or anything....

....but RIP Tony Markellis. Bass player for the Trey Anastasio Band and others.

I do like 1973 ...

But I was initially hoping for an official release of 6-9 and 10-73, which would be swell!

Maybe Dick Latvala didn't think it was that good but a lot of other heads, me included, seems to think so. I have a tape of 6-10-73 since 1985 but a bit muddy sounded and not in chronological order. It would be great to have it in order mastered by Jeffrey Norman. Including the third set with the Allmans of course. :-)

But I will appreciate DP 38 for the time being. ;-)
It was shipped on April 23rd and will hopefully be here before the end of May, or at least early June. :-)

Micke Östlund,
Växjö, Sweden

Hey!

For the 50th anniversary of the Europe 72 tour I'd like to see the powers that be select a few of the shows and apply all of the new technology available to enhance the sound quality (Plangent etc...) of these shows. (Give Jeffrey some time). I'd buy it.

Tony Markellis

RIP, Mr. Markellis. That man could lay down some grooves. Love bass players that can really grove and dance on the bass.

Taylor Swift, too funny.

But it does look like her, dang Dave, gone Madonna on us?

Thanks for the cover art catch being from the spring show, not sure I would have caught that! And as I posted on 37, I have that poster.

Bobby Weir used to wear Madonna shirts in the mid 80's....

....matched well with his Daisy Dukes.

Taylor?

That image looked like beardless Jerry to me.

Bob and his Madonna shirt are on one of the official video releases (VFTV4?).

Left Hand Monkey Wrench

Dead.net WEB Site could use some TLC . Get rid of the "Who Are You" pop up (don't mind the song). Lately it seems every icon click leads to the table of contents instead of interior web pages. Did the monkey grab the keys to the IT Control Room? Would rather order merch from my laptop or desktop not my iphone. Oh Well, going to get some new flagpole rope to fly my new STEALIE flag.

9/7 bonus

I listened to the CD’s and all played fine with no distortion or audio problems. Have the files on a computer now as I convert to various formats for use on music players.

Note: on crappy computer speakers there is a lot of distortion (mostly Phil). I didn’t notice any when I played the CD’s on my stereo system.

Bonus track list:
111:37

Bird Song
Playing
Here Comes Sunshine
Let It Grow>
Stella Blue
Truckin’>
Drums>
Other One Jam>
Eyes>
Sugar Mag

Edit:
Now playing the bonus disc on home stereo and there is no distortion or audio problems.
When playing the files on a computer the audio levels (as shown by the audio software) were close to saturation. So, if you hear distortion try it on better speakers. This may account for the previous posts by people who listened with headphones and thought they detected distortion and/or saturation.

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