Dave's Picks Vol. 39: The Spectrum, Philadelphia, PA 4/26/83

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July 30, 2021 - 9:15am

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Dead Admin

Joined:
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We're feelin' Philly 4/26/83 and its '80s highs. See what we're on about when you pick up DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 39: THE SPECTRUM, PHILADELPHIA, PA, 4/26/83, the final show of a three-week tour, played at the venue that the Dead played more than Madison Square Garden (there's your daily dose of Dead trivia). This one fires on all cylinders, with extremely well-played, high-energy tight sets featuring newbies "West L.A. Fadeway," "My Brother Esau," rarities like Brent's tune "Maybe You Know," precise medleys "Help>Slip>Franklin's," an inspired new pairing "Throwing Stones>Not Fade Away," and the Dave's Picks debut of "Shakedown Street." And before you come down, we've got a prime slice of bonus material from the previous Spectrum show 4/25/83 and an extra dollop of '83 from the War Memorial Auditorium, Rochester, NY 4/15/83 (featuring the Bobby rarity "Little Star").

Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 39: THE SPECTRUM, PHILADELPHIA, PA, 4/26/83 was recorded by Dan Healy and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman.

*2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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August 7, 2021 - 8:20am

#721

icecrmcnkd

Joined:
October 20, 2015

Lemieux and Norman

What’s the scoop?
Is the HDCD logo on the releases just false advertising?

Have you considered doing a few releases of awesome sounding Plangentized reels as BluRay Audio, 24/192?
Led Zeppelin did that with the Song Remains The Same soundtrack.
August 7, 2021 - 8:16am

#722

1stshow70878

Joined:
September 11, 2014

Maybe You Know

Wow! First time I've heard this. I love it. Kind of Loose Lucy sounding. Will have to pay more attention to the lyrics but at first listen was most impressed with Jerry's chording like Chuck Berry. A special treat in a show where Jerry is hitting an amazing number of notes. Arpeggio maximus. How did he just keep getting faster even as his health was declining?
Cheers all!
August 7, 2021 - 8:12am

#723

icecrmcnkd

Joined:
October 20, 2015

Sorry that was so long

I would have just posted the lynk if I could.

It came from a site called audio asylum.
August 7, 2021 - 8:10am

#724

icecrmcnkd

Joined:
October 20, 2015

Thanks for the info

Arthur,
What you posted appears to be from VLC. If you used VLC to convert a 16 bit CD to 24 bit FLAC you just put 16 bits into a 24 bit container. That’s not the equivalent of playing a 720p DVD in a BluRay player that upconverts to 1080p.
If you used actual software that decodes HDCD please tell us what software that is.

Ziffle,
What you said is in line with what I’ve read online.

Simon,
I thought you had a CD player that let you toggle between CD and HDCD.

Since I can’t post a lynk, here’s the text.

Huge misconception regarding HDCD
Posted by Charles Hansen (M) on June 12, 2017 at 23:26:28
In Reply to: RE: MQA vs HDCD posted by Jeff Starr on June 9, 2017 at 02:03:01:

>> HDCD was a way to get 20 bit sound out of a redbook CD. <<
That is what Pacific Microsonics (PM) *claimed* for HDCD. The truth is that was simply marketing hyperbole. PM built an A/D converter designed by Keith Johnson, called the Model One. The later Model Two was similar but added support for both dual- and quad-sampling rates. There were three unique features of the PM A/D converters that comprised the HDCD system:

1) Peak Extend (PE) - was a compansion algorithm that compressed the top 9dB of audio signal during recording into the top 3dB of digital codes on the disc. When played back through an HDCD-enabled DAC or CD player, a "sub-code" that replaced some of the audio signal in the 16th bit (LSB) would instruct the DAC to expand the compressed signal and restore the full dynamic range.

2) Low-Level Extension (LLE) - was a method to automatically boost the gain as the audio signal dropped, starting when the signal level fell to -45dBFS. It was boosted in 0.5dB steps as the level fell, reaching a maximum gain shift of 4dB if the signal ever fell another -18dB to -63dBFS. Again when played back through an HDCD-equipped DAC or CD player, the instructions mixed in the LSB of the audio signal would instruct the DAC to lower the gain (and background noise) by the appropriate amount.

3) Transient Filter (TF) - was a method whereby the A/D converter measured the amount of high-frequency energy in the top octave. When it passed a certain threshold, the HDCD system would select from one of two available anti-aliasing filters (ie, "digital filters"). The original plan was apparently to have a complementary process during playback, but this never materialized. My best guess is that this was because Ed Meitner (then of Museatex) had beaten PM to the punch and already patented a DAC that switched reconstruction filters (ie, "digital filters) during playback, again by sensing the amount of high-frequency energy in the top octave.

The problem is that the claimed 20 bits of resolution is a horribly distorted representation of the truth.. It was one of the greatest marketing misrepresentations in the history of high-end audio. In actuality, both PE and LLE could be *optionally* applied by the mastering engineer, and the instruction manual warned that there were specific reasons for not doing so on certain types of music. Also there never was any way to decode for the TF feature (which was always engaged). However every single CD made with a PM A/D converter would light up the mandatory "HDCD" logo light on a licensed DAC - even when there was no decoding of the disc even possible - apparently in an attempt to scare people into purchasing a new CD player or DAC that had HDCD decoding (and from which PM received royalty payments).

The truth is that PE (*if* engaged by the mastering engineer) could only ever provide a maximum dynamic range increase of 6dB - and even then only if the recorded signal reached 0dBFS. In the very extreme case, this only adds 1 bit of resolution, to 17 bits.

The truth about LLE is even more underwhelming. *If* the mastering engineer chose to engage it, it only became active when the audio signal dropped below -45dBFS. I have analyzed scores of HDCD discs using the tools available in Foobar. For popular music LLE was *only* ever engaged during song fadeouts. It turns out that -45dBFS is an extremely low level, nearly 8 bits below the maximum. Even with classical music recorded using LLE, the gain-shifting only activates infrequently - specifically during very quiet passages when only 1 or 2 instruments are playing. I have never seen an HDCD track ever use the full 4dB range of level shifting, as the signal level would have to fall to -63dBFS, nearly 11 bits below the maximum. The *theoretical* maximum gain shift of 4dB amounts to about another 0.6 bits of dynamic range.

If *both* features were engaged by the mastering engineer, and everything completely optimized in an extremely unlikely real-world scenario, the most that HDCD could boost the dynamic range would be 1.6 bits to 17.6 bits. In more realistic situations, engaging both features would increase the effective bit depth between 0 and roughly 1.2 bits with classical music, and between 0 and roughly 0.9 bits with popular music.

At this date we have all had chances to hear the differences between 44/16 files and 44/24 files. The most common example was the 2009 remaster of The Beatles box set. The CDs were dithered down to 16 bits, while the "green apple" thumb drive contained the original 44/24 files (reduced from the 192/24 tape transfers made with Prism A/D converters). Yes there is a difference in sound, but it is hardly "jaw-dropping" or "transformational". So if adding 8 true bits of resolution only improves the sound slightly, one wonders how much improvement would be heard with only 1 extra bit of resolution - *if* the HDCD features were even engaged by the mastering engineer.

So where did PM come up with the "20 bits of resolution" claim? Simple - they added the extra bits as the A/D converter also had optional dither algorithms. This is where it gets weird. Prior to the PM converters, by far the most common alternative was the Sony PCM-1610. While it did not have any dither built into that converter, the incoming audio signal was always dithered anyway - by the tape hiss present on the analog tape that was being transferred to digital. There is no tape recorder on the planet that has an unweighted S/N ratio greater than 96dB, which is what would be required to create the need for external dither to be added.

The next question is why was HDCD so enthusiastically received by the audio press and many mastering studios? Again the answer is quite simple - it sounded far better than the competing Sony unit. *Not* because of the HDCD features but simply because it was designed to a far higher "audiophile" standard by Keith Johnson, an extremely talented designer.

The A/D converter is simply one box in the chain between the recording microphone and the playback speaker. We have all heard the difference made by replacing (say) a cheap preamplifier made with very old, low cost op-amps, electrolytic coupling capacitors, and low quality parts throughout with a mega-buck preamplifier made by one of the top designers on the planet using fully discrete circuitry, state-of-the art parts throughout, and designed for the absolute maximum performance.

A change like this can completely transform the sound of a home stereo system. And a similar change to the A/D converter can completely transform the sound quality of a CD.

That is the real story of HDCD - a superior sounding product that was sold through deliberately misleading marketing strategies and false comparison setups. For example at the 1997 CES, PM gave out free CDs with "comparison" tracks purporting to show the differences made by HDCD processing. The natural assumption was that the tracks were made with the same converter and simply engaging and disengaging the HDCD processing. But no, instead PM made three tracks with the PM A/D converter and three "comparison" tracks with a Sony PCM-1610 converter.

In addition HDCD was dreamed up to be a money-making machine. The converters were sold to the studios for $20,000 each (I'm unsure if there were licensing costs there.) On the playback side each manufacturer had to pay a $5,000 licensing fee up front (later raised to $10,000), plus purchase a special decoding IC from PM. The IC was priced artificially high so as to constitute an easy-to-track royalty payment for each player sold.

It fooled a lot of people for a long time. There were two separate events that led to the demise of HDCD. The first was that only a couple of years after HDCD was available to the public, both DVD-Audio and SACD offered true high-resolution formats, obviating the need to "hop up" the out-of-date Redbook CD format (by only a single bit of actual resolution). The second was that PM had paid roughly $500,000 to develop their custom decoding IC chip. It was made on a 600 micron process. (By comparison we are now down to the 12 to 16 micron range with semiconductor processes.) By 2002 or so that technology was so out of date that the fabrication house was dismantling the line and halted production. It would have cost another $500,000 to make a new version. There was an aborted attempt to fabricate it as a pre-programmed Motorola (?) DSP chip, but apparently there was only one sample batch ever made before PM sold the entire thing to Microsoft, where it died off fairly quickly.

The only positive note to the whole story is that there are still a good number of mastering houses that still use the PM A/D converters. Even though the Model Two is over 15 years old, there are only a handful of other brands that can compete with it sonically. It is still one of the best sounding A/D converters ever made, just as the Marantz 9 was one of the best sounding power amplifiers ever made. Good sound never goes out of fashion.

As far as any similarities between the 20-year old story of HDCD and the current story of MQA, I will leave that up to the reader to judge.

As always, strictly my own opinions and not necessarily those of my employer or guru.

EDIT: The above post was dashed off quickly and likely contains some minor errors. For example the units used in the discussion of semiconductor fabrication should have been "nanometers" and not "microns". Nevertheless I believe the overall arch is historically accurate. Corrections are highly welcomed.
August 7, 2021 - 7:43am

#725

Dennis

Joined:
November 1, 2012

That Mike and Ornette

Saw Ornette at Town Hall in NYC when he was doing the Song X tour with Methany.

Didn't understand one bit of it!!!
August 7, 2021 - 6:54am

#726

Dogon

Joined:
March 23, 2009

Dennis, Joe and Lee

I dont think you will be disapointed when it arrives.
There is a rumour that a Lee Morgan 60s set is in the works, unfortunately you have missed the Hank Mobley 60s set, but keep your eyes open, it might turn up used, if it does, pounce!
Also in Japan a whole slew of Lee Morgan reissues are being released in conjunction with the Live at the Lighthouse box.
CD Japan is your friend, and if you were to order from them you will be surprised, after dealing with all the highs and lows of dealing with Deadnet, of the smoothness and efficiency of the transaction!
I always pay for shipment via DHL, a bit more expensive, but 2, max 3 days delivery from Tokyo to my door in Sweden.
August 7, 2021 - 4:28am

#727

ArthurDent

Joined:
February 16, 2017

Encoding Info

Artist Grateful Dead
Title Let It Grow
Album 1983-04-26 - Dave's Picks Vol. 39 - The Spectrum, Philadelphia, PA
Track 10/10
Disc 1/3
Genre Rock
Year 1983
Rating
Composer
Size 79.88 MB (58% Compressed)
Original Size 189.63 MB
Length 12 minutes 31 seconds
Channels 2 (stereo)
Sample Rate 44.1 KHz;
Sample Size 24 bit
Bit Rate 2,116 kbps (DVD)
Encoder FLAC reference libFLAC 1.3.2 20170101
Encoder Settings
Audio Quality Perfect (Lossless)
Contains CRC, ID Tag [Vorbis Comments]
Channel Mapping
File 10 Grateful Dead - Let It Grow
Type FLAC Audio File (VLC) [.flac]
August 7, 2021 - 2:07am

#728

Forensicdoceleven

Joined:
June 17, 2008

Only the guy who isn't rowing has time to rock the boat………….

50 years ago today……

August 7, 1971
Golden Hall, San Diego, California

Set 1: Big Railroad Blues-El Paso-Mr. Charlie-Sugaree-Mama Tried-Bertha-Big Boss Man- Promised Land-Hard to Handle-Cumberland Blues Casey Jones

Set 2: Truckin'-China Cat Sunflower-I Know You Rider-Next Time You See Me-Sugar-Magnolia-Sing Me Back Home-Me & My Uncle-Not Fade Away>Goin' Down the Road Feelin' Bad>jam>Johnny B. Goode

Deadicated to Seth Hollander, Oxford 88, Mr_Heartbreak, gcdeadhead, Shafts Of Lavender, Gratefulpeds, Gbow22, frampton, jpdonn1, chilly1214, and deadyettipa, because nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it…..

Released as part of Dick’s Picks 35 in 2005, one of the so-called “houseboat tapes”, somewhat of a revelation at the time, as not all summer 71 shows circulated. Not the greatest show but I will always take whatever 71 is officially released!!

There’s not a “big jam”---although there is an interesting but short jam between GDTRFB and Johnny B Goode---but it’s OK. What I call “the three R’s of live Dead”----rockin’, rowdy, and raucous!! Needless to say, worth a listen!!!

Rock on!!

Doc
We are imprisoned in the realm of life, like a sailor on his tiny boat, on an infinite ocean……
August 7, 2021 - 12:11am

#729

simonrob

Joined:
June 7, 2007

HDCD...

I have no idea if HDCD encoded discs sound better. I only have one CD player and that has no possibility to turn the HDCD on or off, so making a comparison is not possible. My player, like most, has the DAC built in. A comparison using my player and another with a different DAC and no HDCD would reveal the differences between the DACs as well as any differences with HDCD on or off, making such a comparison pointless. I can only read discussions on this by others, such as Ziffle, who are (or at least claim to be) better informed than me on the subject. I don't lose sleep over this as there is nothing I can do about it- I just put CDs in the player, hit 'Play' and the magic begins.
August 6, 2021 - 9:09pm

#730

Angry Jack Straw

Joined:
October 2, 2012

Satisfaction

Wharf - I believe you are referring to the 8/8/82 Alpine Valley show. The whole show is awesome stuff.

John Perry Barlow

John Perry Barlow

Forums

Dead Store Products

We're feelin' Philly 4/26/83 and its '80s highs. See what we're on about when you pick up DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 39: THE SPECTRUM, PHILADELPHIA, PA, 4/26/83, the final show of a three-week tour, played at the venue that the Dead played more than Madison Square Garden (there's your daily dose of Dead trivia). This one fires on all cylinders, with extremely well-played, high-energy tight sets featuring newbies "West L.A. Fadeway," "My Brother Esau," rarities like Brent's tune "Maybe You Know," precise medleys "Help>Slip>Franklin's," an inspired new pairing "Throwing Stones>Not Fade Away," and the Dave's Picks debut of "Shakedown Street." And before you come down, we've got a prime slice of bonus material from the previous Spectrum show 4/25/83 and an extra dollop of '83 from the War Memorial Auditorium, Rochester, NY 4/15/83 (featuring the Bobby rarity "Little Star").

Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 39: THE SPECTRUM, PHILADELPHIA, PA, 4/26/83 was recorded by Dan Healy and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman.

*2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

The last great box set?

What could it be? Maybe there is more than one. Dave said that they erased a lot of the Warfield tapes for practice tapes for Brent, but maybe they didn't erase the video tapes of the shows. I sit here watching Scarlett Begonias & Morning Dew from Winteland 1974 and I think to myself, if they released all the video and audio from Winteland 1974 that would be hard to top, is that the last great box set
left? What if they have the whole Great Northwest Tour from 1968 in the vault,, that would certainly be a contender for the last great box set. I can't wait for this s new box set, it looks like a killer! Oh well, eventually we will find out, time for another beer.

Aye Wilfred

being difficult is a trait both men and women can have

I am just venting about my immediate circle of people I need to deal with

in the immortal words of the Plasmatics

"tell me how you got your mind so crazy
P S Y C H O!!!"

The Last Great Box Set

A new documentary now streaming on Netflix.

Proudfoot, I see you have been talking with my wife. So long as you don't tell her I am on the river.. everything should be copasetic. Just let her rant for a couple hours and with a little luck she will humanize a bit.

Edit: Clearly we need some new music to distract is from.. well.. ourselves... Having listened to most of the shows in the FoxBox as they currently circulate, I just know this will be an awesome adventure in sound and I cannot wait to enjoy the FullNorman versions.

Plus, news of Dave's Picks 40 should begin to trickle out pretty soon.

Bolo, Bolo.. wherefore art though Bolo? (I hear if you mention his name three times he magically appears) Perhaps he can help shed some light into what might be coming our way on the subscription ending release.

rant for a couple of days

"MPINOIFNIOOEIWJLANMLKMNRKLENMKLEAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

yes, dear

"IOPDJOOIJIEJWNIOJROIEWQJIOREJWIORJEWQI!!!!!"

yes, dear

In fairness...

...I find myself bitching about lights that are left on and the water on the sink so much that I'm wondering if it's purposefully done now. I swear, in her previous life, my wife was a seal. :-)

Okay Jim, I'll go with 10-31-79 for DaP 40

Yes, they have the tape(s), as a few trx have been released.

And, most importantly, its release would "justify" the avalanche of Halloween merch.

Count on it.

DaP 40

Ouija board says 1969 or 1979 - 81 or 1991.

Changed my mind...

Or more accurately, I'm lodging my wish list: 8-12-79, Red Rocks, for DaP 40.

I don't give a hoot about 10-31-79, I was just trying to think "like Dave," but, like, he's Canadian, so what the hell was I thinking? Impossible to fathom his mind except for his inevitable love of flannel hats and donuts, right?

KIDDING!!!

Just make it a truly hot show.

And, while I'm "thinking" (Red Alert!) what would be the format or venue for releasing any of the '68 shows that are left? RSD? They've been holding out on 10-12-68 that went with that so-called book of silly cartoons, when do we get it?

Boy, gotta get my torches and sickles together if I'm gonna talk like a one-man mob, no?

HFreak Mob

Hat = toque in Canadia

You just weren’t thinking within the correct vernacular to get in Dave’s mind.

But don’t be too quick to try to get in Dave’s mind, you might be disappointed when you only find avocados.

Recall on the NYE ‘87 video when Mickey, dressed up as Mr. Spock, reads Jerry’s mind and finds lots and lots of cigarette butts.

I want some Vince/Bruce for 40....

....I do. I really, really do.

Ole Brucey Sittin' in on Keys

It's only a matter of time until we get a '91. I like this version of the band as well, and on average they seem to be better recorded than shows in the earlier parts of the Healy era. Bruce could jam with the best of em..

Reminds me of a comment a Trinidadian friend of mine said in the 80's (talking about Captain and Tennille), in my best Trini Accent "Maaun thut guye con plaaayy tha pee-annnn-nooo!" He was a big heavy metal freak and the comment coming from him still cracks me up thinking about it to this day. Not to compare Bruce with the Captain, I just thought the comment was a riot and why rob him of is piano hero. Plus, Bruce can really play the piano. Party on Victor!

HF - Holy Crap.. dipping my big toe into 8/12/79 Red Rocks for the first time. Really good, I cannot turn it off.. great recording great performance (so far, just midway through the first set). Yes, this will do nicely.

I must be high

In fact, I actually am kinda lit, so I thought I'd say that my next to last show was Soldier Field, 22 June 1991, and I was WAY BACK and still enjoyed that evening with Brucey onboard. I'd take that show anyday as a Pick.

I love this sh** one week out from an announcement (presumably) and I'm sure Dave will surprise us all.

Jim, that Red Rocks show really ripped us new ones and we were chock full of blotter for it. That show roars! Wonder if they have a lot of Rocks shows in the Vault and, if so, whether Dave's got "Rocks Box" somewhere in his notes. I kinda gotta believe that's true. Only 7-7-78 & 7-8-78 released so far.

Yeah, where the hell is Bolo? Shouldn't he be raffling off a free Proudfoot Toenail Clipper to whomever can decipher his indecipherable "clues"?

In other news, the new box is due here Friday. And I'm a gonna ladle on a wee bit of tequila and indica for that first '71 show, yes going chrono.

Not to change the subject, but now I'm going into the living room to watch Godzilla: King of the Monsters (1956). Try topping that, boys!

Define

Define "Ladle on a wee bit of Tequila and Indica."

In the mid Atlantic we generally preface a reply such as this with, "yes" or "yes please" occasionally, "yes, thank you" and rare occasions, "yes thanks.. apologies for the dent in the garage door."

Soldier Field 91

I would hope the video and audio of that show gets released. I was there and it was epic.

92 Soldier Field had a great first night. Was at both of those. Steve Miller and James Cotton sat in. Epic as well.

93 Soldier Field had Sting open. I don't remember those shows being particular standouts as I haven't even listened back to them in over 20 years.

94 Soldier Field attended the first night but not second. Seemed it had its moments.

95 Soldier Field, historic significance and Vision of Johanna was the real lone highlight except Phil stepping up. Not the same band from Fall 91...

Dave's Picks

It might be nice, if a show was released for each decade that the Dead played in. A Dave's Picks from the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Have that be the Dave's Picks model for each year.

Soldier Field 91

Soldier Field 91 was my last Dead show until Soldier Field 94-- had a girlfriend in college who hated the Grateful Dead. I still shake my head about that one-- why did I date that woman for 2+ years?!! I missed out on many good times, but I digress.

We had floor seats at Soldier Field 91 and I remember we highly enjoyed the first set with Bucket and Shakedown. I loved the Wang Dang Doodle. During set break, the chemicals starting really kicking in for our whole group and we all found the 2nd set, let's say, intense and sometimes tedious with all the Dark Star teases. We booked to the concourse for Drums and Space, but returned for the post-Space section and loved the Black Peter. I would be interested in hearing this show with fresh ears 30 years later.

In 1994, I vividly recall walking into Soldier Field with Traffic kicking into Medicated Goo-- to this day my favorite Traffic song, mostly because it takes me back to a good day in 1994. Spacebrother is right about 1995, Visions of Johanna was all that was memorable on 7/8.

Happy to do it and thanks

for properly capitalizing Tequila and Indica...

"Ladling on a wee bit" is a euphemism for having gargantuan quantities on hand -- just in case they should be needed -- as a multi-hour show unspools on the sound system.

When the weather was quite warm, I'd mix Small Ice Cubes with the Squeezings of a Lime and pour ~2 oz on top, let it sit Five Minutes and Consume with Pleasure. Preceded by a Packed Vaporizer stuffed with Indica of the Finest Strain I could raise in captivity. As the weather cools, I skip that ice crap and go for the Raw Product.

Adjust Volume as Necessary. Leap Up with Glee when Pigpen begins his Greasy Caterwauling.

Do Not Rinse, but Repeat Throughout the Listening Experience.

That is My Definition of Ladling on a Wee Bit, mon frere. No Please, no Thank You, just a libertine's I'll Have That NOW!

Last Great Box Set?

Well, I think there are a lot of possibilities, especially if one continues down the multi-year track some (Giants, PNW, Listen to the River). However, if we are gonna go with the tradition runs from 1 year, I have some ideas. Two types, the first where we have some releases/even a good chunk, but not the whole thing. And then ones where nothing/little has been released.

1. Complete Me
A. Full Winterland '74 (audio & video)
B. Full Closing of the Fillmore East 1971 (Can maybe throw in the rest of 7-2-71 F. West Closing if they have it).
----May be some legal issues with the Beach Boys stuff.
C. Fillmore East '70 (2/11, 2/13, 2/14). Issues with ABB stuff. With some NRPS in there.
D. Full Alpine '89. Audio & Video.
E. 1980 Acoustic stuff: but I think the tapes are toast.
F. 1972: Full Academy of Music Shows (or just the ones not released in full yet).

2. Little/None released
1. 1973: 3 before PNE: Kezar (5/26) plus RFK (6/9 & 6/10). ABB issues.
2. 1973: 2/9 & 2/15
3. 1970 Fall: September Fillmore (3 shows) or Stoneybrook + Cap Theatre + Rock Palace (7 shows)
4. 1969: Ark Box
5. 1968: Carousel Ballroom
6. 1985: Summer Tour box
7. More fall 1989 (Philly Spectrum as centerpiece)
8. More Hornsby 1990 MSG
9. 1987 (if they can get Dylan on board to release full shows).

Forthcoming stuff

Got my shipping notice on Listen to the River today! Who-hoo!

Also, got Garcia Live #17 ordered.

Getting psyched for DP #40. 10-31-79 Halloween angle is interesting.

Still think '91 or Pigpen show.

Last great box set?

I think it was meant to be around like certain runs or big events, The Europe 72 tour, the Fillmore West run. The complete Winterland 1974 run would certainly fit in that category, the April 1971 Fillmore East run would certainly be there. I thought the complete 1968 tour of the Great Northwest would fall into that category, if they had all the tapes. The complete Avalon Ballroom recordings, like you mention, multi year options. I guess that there are a lot of possibilities.

last box

The Complete Great North West Tour of 1968 would be a hot potato !

all I want and need furtherfurthur

is
6/10/73
11/19/72

Box on the wayyyyyy

Got a notice my box will arrive Saturday! Yay!

Just received my Grateful Gardening Bear growing mushrooms. Sooo Cute!

HF & Ladling..

....this is truly divine.
Ahh, the simplicity of the description, the utilization of two of my favorite consumables, no less.

The Share is appreciated; and the telling is, as always, an enlightening, entertaining, joy-inducing read.
Why am I suddenly craving Tequila?

Be Well, People!
Sixtus

forum for the box ?

I thought there was-2 down from here.

Box Forum

Ooops - just found it.

GRRR!

Just lost a long post about 2/21/71. Not going through all that again. Bottom line - it kicks ass big time. Loved it out of the starting gate, but it just keeps growing on me. 2/21/71 - get some!

Dave's #40/ Avalon Ballroom

Those April 1969 Avalon shows would sure make a nice release. Killer version of Death Don't Have No Mercy on 4/6/69. Looks like the complete show of 4/5/69 is all there. Hopefully, we get a 1960s release, we haven't had one in a while. 10/12/68. would make a wonderful stand alone release, like the two acoustic Warfield shows or the acoustic Family Dog show from 1970. It doesn't have to be a Dave's pick, surprise us with a stand alone release.

Mo' '68

Hard to imagine what's actually in the Vault, but they gotta have a half-dozen '68s left, no? Just guessing without any basis -- my usual m.o. The '66, '67 and '68 in the 30 Trips certainly rang the bell. Let's ring it again! A standalone Proto-Dead or something. Make it a limited edition if they think there's only limited, hardcore interest. A '66 show would get more interest from me than an '86 show, just sayin'. In fact, the OSF just announced the preservation of a single reel of a single set '68 show. Collaborate and celebrate '68!

Radio surprise!

Here in the Twin Cities we are fortunate to have a dedicated jazz radio station (KBEM--88.5 on your FM dial--streaming, too!), which is member-supported (yes, I donate). They have a bluegrass show and a jammy show (that DJ usually plays one Phish song each time), but mostly just play straight-up jazz. I listen a lot in the car when I am not making longer drives that warrant a 20-minute Playin' or some such treat.

Anyway, the other day I'm cruising around running errands, when suddenly, that beloved and familiar riff comes sneaking out of my car speakers: "Duh duh duh duhn . . . duh duh duh duhn . . . " Dark Star! The station was playing the new release by Dave McMurray, and at midday, nonetheless.

Yesterday's bike ride tunes: Schubert String Quartet No. 14 by the Juilliard Quartet, followed by disc two of DP 11 (9/27/72), the latter to prepare for the River box.

Also--started listening to my fourth show, 9/5/91, and the first set just kills it! I was lucky to have seen some of the summer and fall 1991 shows, as they really rocked my world. Is 1991 > 1990? :-O

1966-1969

Magical years. The reason why there may have been so few shows released from 1966-1968, and literally none in the Daves Picks series, could be because those releases are aimed at "Deadheads". And they didnt exist in the 60s. They didn't start germinating until the early 70's kicked in. The rational for releases could be that Deadheads are more interested in shows they attended and merchandise than they are in the 60s shows. Crazy - but there you go.

60s GD

I bet we get one or two more, but that's it. If there were more available for release, they would have released those.

88 and 92...mark my words, that's what we will get next.

Moody Blues Days of Future Passed side two is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good

"and the world still goes on through the niiiiiiiiiiiiiggghhhhhhht...."

GOOSEBUMPS

Psychedelic blue balls

I have 5 Dark Stars lined up to listen to...and I just don't have the time to dedicate to them right now.

AAGH.

8/24/72, 12/6/73, 11/11/73, 8/1/73, 11/26/72

I will have the house to myself for a few days in early November...I will be playing these at full volume.

Oh, and 7/18/72

linq lynk llynq knil

;dasmfjoiwej;ajfijis

Re: Radio Surprise

Actually.. I'm not surprised at all. Someone involved with the All About Jazz website has taken some serious time to both listen to and provide some of the most informative reviews about GD music I have every read. And they seem to review just about anything that gets released and I think there are a lot of different members that went through the trouble to write reviews.

If you take a step back and think about it, it makes perfect sense.

Good to hear though.. great that similar sorts of people in the great state of Minnesota take some time out of their Jazz world to play and give praise to Grateful Dead music. Thanks DHB.

Bertha; TNF; Jazz

They just played a snippet of "Bertha," heading into the commercial break here in the 2nd quarter of tonight's TNF matchup between the Rams and the Seahawks. Anyone catch it? Apparently there's a Head on the FOX TNF production crew. We are everywhere.

I've never had a problem choosing between sports and rock and roll. It's always been both. Bill Walton comes to mind...

Here in Denver we are also blessed with 89.3 KUVO - Jazz. Most excellent. Whenever I go into another city (usually in another state) I get on an FM set and start searching out the local classic rock and jazz/blues stations.

When I was a kid in the 70's tons of AM stations played a great variety of music, but I avoid it now because it sounds like shit and is full of talk show extremists.

Be well everyone.

\m/

If you have an extra $45,000

If you have an extra $45,000 you can make a bid on Garcia's Guild Starfire 12 string guitar or his Gibson Mastertone banjo,in the original case. He used the guitar on a couple of gigs in 1969, Weir also played the guitar. You can also bid on Pig Pen's Fillmore East shirt, current bid is $4,000. Lots of other Grateful Dead items, auction runs until Oct 14th. You can see all the items online.

Bear's Ears Is Back

The national monument, not the recordist and chemist. Interior Sec. Deb Haaland announcing the reversal of the former guy's hack job on the environment and sacred lands. If you've never seen that part of Utah you owe it to yourself to see these holy places. Spent more time on the Grand Staircase (also restored) side of the highway, the Great Gallery, Kane Creek and Turkey Pen Ruin, and Fish Canyon ruins back in the day. The rock art is priceless.
Cheers!

re tfg

ftg

DaP 40 announcement ...

coming a little later than usual, as the St Louis box lands on our doorsteps?

I'd guess post-Oct 15, as it'll take another week for the luckiest among us. Got mine last night, will start in on the first show tonight.

Anniversary show 10/9/82. Frost Ampitheatre

39 years ago today, I was at the Frost Ampitheatre to see a great show with the Dead. I think this show is definitely releasable, so far no releases from the Frost, Greek or Ventura. Maybe they are saving up for a box set. Not all the shows from these venues were great, but there definitely were some really good ones.

Also an anniversary show....

....10.9.89. You know what I'm talking about. Stealth shows.
I'm still a little salty due to the fact I attended the Shoreline shows prior and the band decided not to bust out Dark Star in their home town.
I missed the Friday Shoreline show where they broke out Death Don't, but thats on me.

2-1-78 Chicago

Last week's Jam of the Week. Where do I know this from? Has this been on a release? Something clicked as I heard Donna laughing in the background and her patented scream (later in that song?). Did a shallow dig through the discs and the closest I came was 2-3-78 and 2-5-78 from Dick's Pick 18, Dane County. No wonder I liked it so much. I better keep digging. Maybe a bonus disc somewhere?

Grumpy Grumpkins has escaped his cave

I doubt they will ever release any Greek, Frost, or Ventura.

They would have released something from of those places by now.

Good chance they were lifted from the vault early on.

I came upon some coG

Tragic message was theirs

700k ain't too many eye gessss

"We've tasted blood
And we want more"

Ooooooookay.....

Don't be too grumpy...

I think the Vault has quite a few iconic shows tucked away, as well as tons of shows we attended and haven't heard squat from.

I'm not a natural optimist, but remember that Dave thinks the DaP series will go for 20 years. That's 100 shows, counting bonus disc. Plus he's putting out another 7-8 shows per year in a box. Another decade of boxes is another 80 shows.

All I'm saying is that, to accomplish that, Dave has to have a long-term plan, not just plucking the occasional show out of the Vault for release. I have no actual knowledge of his m.o., but it would seem to me he's got to come up with box themes that'll fly tape-wise and business-wise. So he may very well have Frost, Greek, Shoreline, Red Rocks (that's my personal desire) shows staying intact, under the radar, to enable future boxes.

Notice I didn't say something like, "Have patience..." because I want that Rocks box NOW!!

Just sayin', there's hope.

The Vault

GD renewed the 10-year contract with Rhino a couple of years ago and will probably renew for a third term when that time comes.
So, Greek, Frost, Ventura, and others will probably get sifted through for release.
But, Dave has the returned reels to deal with first.
I think that the 80’s DaP’s we have received so far were selected so that the ‘better’ 80’s shows can be used later when there are few pre-Brent shows remaining.

The Vault conversation, part XXIV...

So, Icecreamed, I'm curious why you say that Dave has to deal "first" with returned Bettys? I have openly speculated here that the initial plethora of ABCD-related releases in years just passed might reflect some arrangement with the gents who are ABCD to get the material out more or less immediately. Do you have any argument or evidence that that's true? Being sincere here, not snarky.

I say this because I note that only one reel in the St Louis box is from ABCD. I don't know how many reels per show were used, but is it safe to say more than 20 reels for 20 CDs' worth of music? So the St Louis box benefited from one returned reel but is by far mostly composed of reels they had in the Vault. Neither DaP 39 or 38 were from the ABCD stash.

So I'm genuinely wondering: if there is/was a deal with ABCD to get out those returned Bettys, did the initial slew of ABCD shows (spring '77, Red Rocks, etc.) in the past 2-3 (3-4?) years satisfy that agreement and now Dave is free to intersperse Vault shows with returned Bettys? That scenario seems kinda likely, in that I can imagine an ABCD deal as described above but not one that would shackle Dave for any length of time from freely choosing shows after an initial burst of ABCD releases.

I guess we can only speculate, as a confidentiality agreement probably exists.

As for speculation that we're being softened up to accept '80s shows on cassette -- a world of difference from a Betty, I think many would agree -- that is ... disturbing, to a degree. I'd probably keep subscribing even then, because as in this year, when Dave did '87 and '83 shows, he also gave us 9-73 and 4-78. The '73 shows are a must-hear, must-have for me. So I'd suck up a few '80s cassette shows to get what to me is the really good stuff. My storage situation reflects my personal approach: I've got prime shelf space in my office for '66 thru '75 GD. '76 thru '90s shows are in a tall oak bookshelf in the basement (along with 3/4s of my Jimi, all my Dylan, and other top artists, so no disrespect, just space issues).

Blah, blah, blah! My guess is that the ABCD agreement has passed its initial phase and we're now in potpourri territory. Yes, "potpourri territory"... mmm, need more coffee...

HF, speculation

My speculation regarding the rate of ABCD releases is based on the speculation I read on these boards. I have no additional knowledge.

Regarding the STL Box, in the seaside chat Dave explains how this Box came to be. I don’t recall the details but I think it was something like most of the shows had been selected for release at some time, and he wanted to do another regional Box, and this one came together at this time, although another Box could have also come.

I think that digitization of all the analog recordings (presumably starting with the best sound quality) is a constant process because getting digital copies stored in multiple locations is an insurance policy to keep the releases and revenue coming well into the future.
You don’t want to pull a Universal Music and lose everything in a fire.
So, I think that the library of digitized shows is constantly increasing and that Dave has an ever growing selection to choose from, and then he picks a show that appeals to him at the time. In seaside chats in the past he has said how he has more than one show in mind for an upcoming release, and then makes a decision for whatever reason.

Regarding 80-85 cassettes, we basically know what sounds good because you can get copies from the torrents. There are a lot of people who do want shows from those years released, but also a lot of people who will not buy them. The Rhino business plan may be to generate as much revenue as possible from the pre-Brent years while the people who only like those years are still alive and spending money.

This has all been speculated on in the past on these boards, and I’m just respeculating.

The USPS app says that my Box is out for delivery…..

ABCD/80s etc

They needed to get returns on their investments.
I believe I read there is a NDA?

Theory: using say just four years of DaP only with 20k subs at $100 per sub = $2Mil per year (not including extra ala carte $, boxes, aprons, hatchets etc)
So that’s 8 million in four years just for DaPs...
So my theory is that after production costs and corporate profit etc, it’s taken a few years to pay some or all of that investment off, thereby loosening things up a bit. I’m sure you’ll see ABCD reels being used more then less until their either mostly gone, or the shows aren’t up to par. Hey, a well recorded lousy show is still a lousy show...
As for 80s shows, I’ve said it all along: have 2 series!
I think you snobs would be surprised how well a series dedicated to 80s and 90s “cover band” shows would sell.
I think there’s a huge army of silent heads just waiting...GIANTS box anyone? Sold out way quicker then 78, 76, PNW or the current one!

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