Grateful Dead

dead.net the official site

Fast Fact: ON THIS DAY, JANUARY 29, 1961, BOB DYLAN, 19 YEARS OLD, TOOK A BUS TO MORRIS PLAINS, NEW JERSEY, WHERE HE MET FOR THE FIRST TIME HIS IDOL AND INSPIRATION WOODY GUTHRIE..

As for Punk, or New Wave, by the time the first wave ramped up, I was pretty entrenched in Dylan, the Dead, the Byrds etc, all the bands and performers that seemed to piss the hardcore punks off, which I never understood. I always felt there is room for all music; I don’t care for Pink Floyd, for example, which seemed to be a target for the punks, but I just figured if I didn’t like them, I didn’t have to, I didn’t need to put down them or their audience. Just play, man.

ThatMike - yes, I have always liked music across supposedly conflicting genre's. The year of punk - 1976 - was also the year I started getting into The Dead. "Steal Your Face" - a but perplexing, but hey. Johnny Rotten had a Pink Floyd tee shirt, on which he scrawled "I Hate" in front of the bands name. It was designed to annoy people - Pink Floyd were like rock royalty at that time, so expressing an opinion like that was like heresy. It was drawing a line - that was then - this is now. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that he actually liked them, and had been to see them a few times. It seemed very important to distance yourself from the older generation when I was a teenager. it was quite unusual to have it pointed out that The Stones, Led Zep, Yes, Pink Floyd etc and their fans now WERE the older generation.
Nick Mason included a reproduction of the offending tee shirt in the big Pink Floyd exhibition a few years ago. He saw it as a compliment!

....hallowed ground. I wish I could've visited.

....going with Jimi Hendrix The BBC Sessions for the Eagles/Niners game.

DaveRock - I agree, you have to give everything a chance. I even gave opera a chance - twice! - and it was ok. Just not my thing, but either is death metal or Broadway music, but I don’t put it down. Punk had its place, and some truly great artists emerged from it (Iggy, Ramones, Patti Smith), but I was deeply into the Dead et al long before the Pistols etc played a note. In fact, the guy that really introduced me to the Dead and the Byrds was a huge New York Dolls fan. Funny how that works.

I like to think I am open minded...but I draw the line at opera.

I must be fairly open minded musically, because I occasionally get comments like:
“That sounds like suicide music”
“That makes me want to stick pins in my eyes”
“What the hell is that??”
“You’re making me ill “

S’okay, because I like what I like, and I don’t care if anyone else likes it. I heard a person say to me “you have to see opera Live, to get the beauty of it”. Personally, the vocals are difficult for me to take. Really not big on that Northern European Death Metal either, with all of the low, growling voices that muddle the lyrics.
And yet, give me 20 minutes of pure cacophony, I’ll love it!!
It’s a fools errand to tear down something that others like, because the coin has 2 sides.
Live and let Listen!!

Now, back to my Henry Franklin “ TheSkipper At Home” album.
Go 49ers.

Re: Opera
A case of “Happy wife, Happy life”, gents. Points banked come in handy.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment Daverock but I am curious what your rebuttal would be to the situation I presented. What I want (tons of releases all year long) and what is realistic are two different things. I am a CD store owner and keep a very close eye on what's going on with eBay. As I indicated, there is some guesswork without knowing the specifics of the Rhino deal with the Dead or the budget they have to work with from quarter to quarter.

What I do know is the sales history and sellout rate going back to Rhino's deal to distribute Grateful Dead. First was the Download Series - it was short lived. Why? It either failed because of file transfers between fans, which undercut sales. Or it was a pilot program to gage interest in the Grateful Dead so they could determine how many CDs to manufacture for each release in what would become the Road Trips series.

Road Trips failed. It was not Limited Edition. Some will argue it failed because it sold partial shows, but in reality, they course course corrected on that quickly, and I think at least half were complete shows, mostly in the last half of the 4 year Road Trips program. Incomplete shows is not a good argument for the rebranding to Dave's Picks. We do know some things about Road Trips: 1) It failed or they would not have changed their business model to Limited Edition. 2) We also know if failed because they had stock on the shelves long after the program ended. Old stock of original pressings on CD / Record Store shelves is the kiss of death. This is why record stores were allowed to return LPs and CDs after initial shipments. That's how distribution to outlets works. Back in the day, Tower Records agrees to buy a huge number of U2's current release so they can sell it faster and cheaper, which ultimately led to more floor traffic in their store and lower prices. But this model relied on bulk purchasing, which required cash. Stores therefore had an "out" written into their deal, which allowed them to return unsold quantities to Distributers. Trust me when I tell you that turnaround is the main objective for small operations, since there is nobody to return these CDs to. They have their own private "thing" going on here with the Dead and other "expired" artists. Yes they have a large parent company and Rhino itself is nothing to shake a stick at but all of these little divisions still operating budgets and fiscal goals that need to be met, and these get reviewed quarterly in most companies. Road Trips did not survive the "mystery pressing" sales model (meaning we don't know how many CDs they pressed for Road Trips).

3) Dave's Picks - Limited Edition + Subscription = success. They front-load their sales with subscriptions and sell what's left over. But there is motivation for buyers to subscribe. They save money, they get a bonus disc, and they don't have to worry about missing a release. But look at the small, safe numbers they started with. 12K per release. 48K a year. In steps the resellers. We have no idea how many sales go to resellers, but I would guess 50% of subscriptions went to resellers in the first 10 years of the Dave's Picks program. I've spoken to many of them. Some buy up to 100 units. Rhino does not allow this, but they have they're methods for working around the system. Keep in mind, for eBay seller selling a recent Dave's Picks, he has another copy of the same CD lined up to sell next. In other words, you can't just count the number of Dave's Picks CDs currently on sale. You have to assume most of them have several copies.

The eBay box set and Dave's Picks reseller's bread and butter is the limited edition AND limited pressing model that Rhino took toward the business. It allowed resellers to hog up the merchandise like Harrison's little piggies and mark up the price. Same thing that's going on with concert tickets, except the home business entrepreneur can get a slice of this pie, because CDs are relatively inexpensive next to concert tickets, and relatively profitable if you can get away with a 50 to 70% mark up. But as I said in my previous post, THE EBAY BUBBLE HAS BURST. The casual go-getter can't get a piece of this market anymore. It's been on the decline for a few years as the Dave's Picks numbers increased in manufacturing, but more to the point, which you might have overlooked Daverock, is the massive increase in taxes and other fees that eBay sellers have to accept. They can no longer NOT pay the IRS. eBay reports their earnings to the IRS for anything over $600 starting this year, in the way of a 1099-K (and anyone looking to make money on ebay selling Grateful Dead CDs is Grossing more than $600).

The US tax brackets are higher than a few years ago now too. As I stated in my last post, there is simply no money to be made by peddling Grateful Dead CDs on eBay anymore. Where they used to enjoy at least100% profit on the worst selling Dave's picks, maybe 300% profit on average demand Dave's Picks, and up to 600 - 1000% (or more) on the real hum-dingers, they're completely out in the cold now, because they've gone from paying a measly 13% in sellers fees (which they could get away with making back by bumping the CD price up $10 -$15) to 50% in most cases, depending on your tax bracket). And the CDs are no longer in demand, because of the growth / competition of eBay sellers, and the production increase up to 25K now for each Dave's Picks release. They'll be lucky to break even. The bubble burst and we're seeing it now. I also stated it wouldn't impact us overnight, but we'll see production numbers begin to decrease, and maybe an increase in time between box sets. I don't think it's a coincidence that the early bird pricing was extended this year (it may have been the subscription availability in general, I don't recall). One could also argue (and some have) that the demand for the Dead is going down (at least for 1977). This is natural I think, because so much is already available.

I don't want this any more than any of us. I love all the new releases I can get. But I truly believe a large number of subscriptions were going to resellers, and resellers are leaving this market.

...

....banking points re give and take with ones life partner.
And a happy wife is not an oxymoron.
My wife got on me about concerts. She wants to raise chickens.
So, we bought a coop. And the chicks need a ticket to enter it lol.
Obligatory thank you to Dennis for the LP on LP dl's.

That's an interesting post about the sale of cds, but I can't help wondering if you have mixed me up with someone else! My only comment on the sale of Dave's Picks was thinking that if they don't sell out quickly, then it's not so good, and that in this case it might mean we have had a surfeit of 1977 shows.
That's a shocking figure, 50% of subscribers being people who buy to sell on in the first ten years. Screws everything up, I would say. But it's not something I usually think about.

I think it was Crow or That Mike he is referring to DR. Had to do a double take myself and go back and see. Certainly an informed opinion running a store. There are tons of resellers on ebay and some of the prices are astronomical but as Colin said that's the free market at work. At those prices there must be a very limited market i.e. those with more money than sense. Makes me wonder if there is a way to protect the artist and maker from reproduction as well. I remember the big stew over cassette decks when they first arrived. And that first file sharing thing, was it Napster? Aren't some movies protected from being copied? But I digress. And clearly mine is an uniformed guess.
Cheers
Edit: Oops, sorry Mike.

It wasn’t me that raised the issue, I only mentioned that one factor that may be slowing sales is the international shipping rate of $16 per item, but it is what it is.
But beyond that, I never give it much thought.

Edit: No problem, 1st Show. It’s just I’m under oath, I want no problems with the law.

9/19 & 20/70.

Give it a listen on archive

You're welcome

Already bought mine, even though it's not available yet

DREADING Thanks for the response.
Perhaps Rhino could create an artificial increased profit by claiming every DaP a sell out after a couple of hours and then selling the withheld items themselves via eBay at a ridiculous price :)) They would also have a more informed idea of the number of likely resellers as they would have data on the number of multiple item subscriptions. Obviously they’d need to set up multiple accounts to disguise their identity in the resale trade.

out for delivery!!

and that's it, the end of an era. ebay has capped their sales at 600.00 per year which means no more resales of Dave's Picks. If there are, they will be more expensive then they are now, like triple mark up. If there is no profit to be made, there will be less sales and therefore less resales. This will ultimately be the death toll for Dave's Picks and for most limited editions and possibly for all these remixed, super fidelity reissues that everyone and their families are re releasing for more cash for the same music. I have enough music now to last me till long after I'm dead.
Are there any more 77 shows to release? I do believe if there are, they can't be that many, especially top notch shows. I love this series of releases more than Dick's but nothing last forever and maybe it's time to turn the page.
TPTB got me this year for the subscription for Dave's 46, love 72, but they are going to have to come up with something extra special for me to reup my subscription next year.
I predict that the numbers will be reduced to less than 20,000 for the next series of releases, if that many. Dreading summed it up very well below and I concur with his assessment. Fare Thee Well thanks for the memories and for a real good time.

Good for you JJC! I still don't have a shipping notification.

That Mike - NO BROADWAY SHOWS!!?!!?! My god man have you no taste!!!

Funny wife line.....

Driving somewhere one day with "The Wife" and as usual singing non stop. Running thru every broadway song I know (which is quite a few :-) ). Once done I tell my wife about a 6 grade "music" teacher we had. When I was a kid in school once a week a "music" teacher or an "art" teacher would come by for an hour. This music teacher printed off all the words to several musicals, he'd play piano and the class would sing. I ended with I guess he was gay. To which she replies, "says the man who's been singing musicals for an hour".

One more quick one for a smile. A few years back we went to a family reunion for my wife's family. One relative pulls out a guitar and starts thru a lot of simple songs everyone knows. He then ends up doing Kansas City from Oklahoma. Gets thru the first line or two and nobody continues to sings. Then from the back of the pack I pull all the words out of my ass. Rest of the time there everyone wants to know how I knew all those words! (like Monk, It's a gift,,,,, and a curse.

Opera, I don't mind opera per se, but foreign languages I don't understand. But give me Sweeney Todd (and no, not that lousy version with Johnny Depp. Or how about, 'I am the captain of the pinafore and I'm never, ever sick at sea" (No Never?) ( and let's not forget Jesus Christ Superstar)

Mr Ones and his two side coin.

Must not have watched Route 66. Then you'd know a coin has 3 sides.

Tod Stiles : Whenever you reach an impasse look at the the third side of the coin.

Buz Murdock : The third side?

Tod Stiles : Yea.

Buz Murdock : I thought there was only two sides to a coin.

Tod Stiles : The third side is the edge, the place the two sides come together. The meeting place of heads and tails. Dad used to say that was the best side, because it welds opposites together. And it's a circle, a continuous circle, closed and perfect, as endless as understanding itself.

Ebay taxes,,, ebay can only report "sales" numbers, not taxable profit. Because I sell something for 10 bucks doesn't mean I made 10 bucks, If I can show (if need be) a ten dollar item cost me 9.99, taxable income is only a penny. Also sometimes "cost" can make a profit a loss.

Vguy - no problem, Mi cuts, su cuts

Bob Dylan Bootleg 17 lp box came last night, very nice box, well made. The packaging was above and beyond great.

...... now where did I put that turntable.....

RonMarley1shocked it is here in NYC so quickly. I am usually on the outside looking in.

Dennis - For the two opera productions I went to/got dragged to, I didn’t realize this until I got there, but there is a long teleprompter (for lack of a better word) that ran above the stage, that translated the lyrics from Italian (I think) into English, so that helped when I’m trying to figure out Who What Where. Definitely not my kind of music, and ten minutes after the show I couldn’t tell you what the productions were called, but I can now say I’ve been, and I always use the credits I bank for concerts or movies my wife has no desire to see. If she starts with the “Another James Bond movie…!!”, I just pull out the Platinum opera card, and arrange for movie seats.

The newest Dylan bootleg box is a keeper. The stuff he doesn’t release are of such incredible quality, you wonder how most of his albums weren’t the Blonde On Blonde double or triple format.

Didn’t the recent 90 (s), the 69s, and possibly the 74 Dave’s sell out within a week or less?

eBay/taxes and all that is probably one factor, but I also think there’s a significant number of folks who might feel they have enough of some years, but are hankering for other underrepresented ones?

I guess time will tell. It’ll be interesting to see how 46 does as there are also a good number of shows from 72 out already…

EDIT: do not dig opera, or chorus, or most things with over the top choral singing, but so what, that’s just me.
One man gathers what another man spills…

Where to begin, so much catching up. Thanks to everyone for the lively discussions, a pleasure to read and musical rabbit holes to follow. Frank Zappa is about as close as I get to opera. Favorite David Crosby song is Triad. Shipping notice showed nothing until this morning and now says, it's less than 100 miles away, could be here tomorrow or maybe next week. Yes, Dave's Picks series getting long in the tooth, WMG Rhino will never go any higher than 25K editions and they well could fall back to 20K now the resellers are buying less volume but if they do, how about five releases per year instead of four?When I look at all the DPs, the DaPs, the RTs, the box sets, its freakin' incredible how much grate music is on the shelves, not to mention everything else, have enough to last forever.... so when is the new 68/69 box going to be released? And now about the last night of FW69 on vinyl, whats the hold up?? Could not wait for Gainesville, downloaded.

If only the GD would have done an opera! (kidding). I have seen a few and get them although they are not usually my thing. I had a colleague who's side hustle was support and production of Operas, he took us to see one of Mozart's Magic Flute once, a project he helped see through. It was fun enough.

My favorite opera moment has to be Tim Robbins playing \Mozart, the Marriage of Figaro over the PA in the Shawshank Redemption. A pretty powerful moment in that film and a testament that Music can heal. For me, a great song to pull me through tough times is The Hobo Song. An up-tempo bluegrass song, the words, however, speak of deep despair.

I guess I am in the minority, I don't blame EBay taxes for Dave's 45 still being available. For some reason, the Fall '77 shows seem to be less desirable than Spring and Summer. I think the perceived drop in demand has more to do with an impending recession and resulting less disposable income for many, but the real reason is the 25,000 subscription number. Remember.. the first year the subscription was capped at 12,000 copies. Even us diehards openly discuss not needing every single release. As much as I love 1977 GD, I have listened to it a ton.

It is going to be hard for Rhino and the GD to keep the hype going at 25k copies. Treading carefully as they must, the greatest hype period was probably in 2015 with Fare The Well, etc.

One last comment, the first release each year always takes longer to sell out. Not sure exactly why.. perhaps it's because each year attracts a churn of new Deadheads that got on the bus late and buy a few ala carte CDs while the people that drop off the wheel and quit subscribing affect subscription numbers, which they can control somewhat and the impact is largely hidden to us.

I don't think it's primarily an EBay phenomenon, but I could be wrong.

He Used to be a Gamblin' Man Just Like You......

It may be better that they take a while to sell out, so non subscribers ( mentioning no names) can pick up a copy. It would be more worrying if they sold out on day one, before everybody that wants a copy can get one. That would light up the board, if that happened ! But all the Dave's Picks have sold out reasonably quickly, which is the main thing. So maybe they have got it right after all.
It wouldn't do any harm to move out of the 70's, though. My preference would be to go back to the 1960's, but there are surely others would be just as keen for the series to move on into the 80's and 90's. I personally might not buy them, but I am sure there are many that would.

The Dead might not have played opera, but they look as if they going out to hear one on the cover of "Go To Heaven."

Assessing sales and what it means is always tricky.
Hobo Song and Land of the Navaho always get me.
So The Who pulled it off with Tommy, why not? I could see some story pulled from the ballads and expanded into an opera. So many, Jack Straw comes to mind in a dust bowl hobo storyline. Or Terrapin with the Lady & The Fan story.
The GD Movie's first few minutes of animation work for me as almost a visual opera but I'm a cartoon child and all the classical music I know is from the Loony Tunes cartoons. And all my knowledge of ancient history comes from Fractured Fairy Tales with the voice of Edward Everett Horton.
Cheers
That New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival line-up is humongus (or is that humungus?)!

Interesting to read the different views on the failure to sell out, I do hope it is down to fatigue, either of the 70's generally, or 77 specifically. That said, I do fear PT Barnum maybe nearer the mark and always wondered if the increase to 25k was, perhaps, a step too far.

What is clear is that whole model is based on each volume selling out. Not necessarily immediately, but reasonably promptly. As soon as volumes stop selling out we descend into the vicious spiral of cherry picking increasing while subscriptions fall. Cherry picking is fine in theory, why shouldn't people only buy the volumes they want? Because it means fewer units sold and consequently the model becoming unsustainable without reducing the numbers.

I'm not familiar with the new ebay restrictions mentioned, but I've always found it a little ironic that the resellers have always taken quite a bit of stick here, when the reality is that reselling has been absolutely critical to the success of Dave's Picks, building demand and driving numbers up and making it what it is to day. It's worth remembering that each Dave's Picks now sells about four times what the Road Trips releases used to sell and about half of those were full shows.

On a more optimistic not, didn't volume 41 take a while to sell out?

just ripped in set 1 10-1 promised land and TLEO are from Audience tapes they say the deads masters for those 2 songs were unsalvageable.

Yes, interesting to hear all the theories.
However, there wasn't a change in eBay reporting. The change was at the Federal level and was included in The American Rescue Plan.
All payment platforms, which include eBay, PayPal, Venmo, etc. are required to report to the IRS and the account holder all payments over $600 for the year. The old threshold was $20,000. This is a huge change. It means if you sell your daughter's bike on Craigslist and you get paid through PayPal and it is over $600, it will be reported to the IRS. It would also include your buddies paying you for dinners or drinks through Venmo if it exceeds that $600 for the enter year. This has caused a huge disruption with these platforms, including Ebay. It was such a big issue, the IRS decided not to enforce it for 2022, but warned everyone would have to comply in 2023.

Okay, I am sure this is really boring, but sure it impacts all types of sales, including Ebay.

We will have to wait and when #45 eventually sells out. I see the LTTR and the MSG box sets are both still for sale.

Hope you all receive your #45 soon.

53 years ago today, the Grateful Dead were busted down in New Orleans, down on Bourbon Street. They wouldn't play in New Orleans until 1980, when they played a couple of acoustic/electric shows, that would make a nice release.

Confession time... as an all music lover, have enjoyed opera and as a kiddo, sung in the street urchin chorus for Bizet's Carmen performed at the Carter Barron Amphitheater in DC. Loved the Who's Tommy when it came out fifty years ago, of course. OK now I feel much better, back to my regular programming.

Anyone have any books by Ray Robertson? Which ones should I read, please?

Opera is fine by me, but it has to be live. My wife humors me by coming along, but I'm the one who listens to classical music all day (with breaks for GD, Dylan, and Jazz).

Sluggish sales? Let's be honest--we have TONS of GD already, so it does become difficult to get too wound up over new releases, unless the release is from a lightly-mined era, or is from recently-recovered tapes of a true classic show. Some of these recent boxed sets might have been better off with just a couple of the gem shows being Dave's Picks instead?

And yes, if I watch sports (which is mostly soccer), I mute the announcers. It's always fun when the music I'm playing suddenly synchronizes with the on-field action!

Be kind, rewind.

p.s. DMCVT, I LOVE that! :) Just took the entire family to Carmen last spring. I've seen it two or three times now . . .

In the late 90s Pete Rowan was the featured musician on a multi-day float trip with the local river company on the mighty San Juan River. Folks brought their instruments and there was jamming around the campfire every night. After the trip he graciously played a free show in the tiny Nadabar for us folks in town. At one point he started talking about Muley Point, which has one of the most iconic and spectacular views in the southwest, looking south from atop the edge of Cedar Mesa across the Goosenecks of the San Juan to the Navajo Nation including Douglas Mesa, Monument Valley, and beyond. And he finishes with something to the effect that "I wrote this song while I was camped up on Muley Point years ago." And then he played Land of the Navajo.

Midnight Moonlight holds a special place for me in those Old and in the Way songs. Listening to some of that Boarding House music right now. Nice unexpected music detour for a gray afternoon.

Bummer

Great opera story.

See, Opera isn’t just for the Marx Bros anymore. Heads can get their Verdi on, too!

# 8688 arrived here in the Mohawk Valley today. :)

The sky is not falling.
Road Trips Fall ‘77 with bonus disc, new, wrapped in plastic, was still available on dead net just a few years ago. I can confirm because I bought a copy.

Annual production numbers will be determined by the running average of annual subscription numbers.

All of ‘77 (as well as many other years) should be released. I subscribe at early bird rates every year and plan on continuing to do so.
No ‘77 burnout here.
In fact, just finished listening to 5-18-77 Fries-79012-remaster and it sounded grate.

Dave,
Time to complete May ‘77 and then hit us with that Winterland March/December ‘77 Box.

The only opera I witnessed live was Quadrophenia in ‘96. I liked it. Because it was rock.

I believe that the new tax on online profits is to make things more equal with the taxes on profits that brick and mortars have to pay. Sounds fair to me.

To receive my Dave’s 45 today. It’s unprecedented for me to be among the first to receive their copy. So, I’m only breaking into the heart of set 2 from the Oct. 1st show, but I must say, this band is truly on top and playing free & hot. Even numbers I’m not usually fond of (post pigpen Good Lovin’) are super charged. I don’t care that the first 2 songs are from audience tape, this show seems like a true gem even though I’m not finished set 2 from night one. It’s been said (a lot) but it’s true. When the boys were on and ready for action, Everything sounds so crisp & joyful!!
Gimme more Dave!!

Edit: just love how at a little over 7 minutes into Dancing In The Street, it sounds like the drums segment is about to begin, a bit of a lull, and then…another almost 3 minutes of HOT pickin’!!

I’ll be back for more tomorrow. Oct. 2nd CAN’T be hotter than the 1st, can it??

Music is the Best!!

....but that's ok. Cracked open Boxilla again. Went with Paris '90.
It's got a Saint -> Crazy Fingers.
Going out for some pho soon. Yummy.

Shows that I hope receive the full Norman.
02/15/69
09/19/70
11/19/72
12/01/79
09/26/91
I am still amazed that 45 is still available for sale.

Good call

Actually, GREAT call

The only opera I have ever sat and listened to, and that only on a dvd, was "Tosca" by Puccini. This chap I knew a few years ago wanted to show me how wonderful opera was, and he planned an afternoon for me and a few others to watch and listen to that one. The others were enthralled. Amazing how different taste can be - it did make me wonder what was lacking in me that stopped me from hearing what the others were hearing.
The only thing I really found remarkable was the apparent strength and lung power of the singers.

I agree where's the final vinyl?

I sure most here sat thru all the opera on Gilligan's Island! (to be or not to be)

Looks like mine will be showing up today. Never got a shipment notification from them though. I just saw that USPS will be dropping off a package later.

Man, these DaP 45 deliveries are really getting out there, great to hear people are receiving them in a timely fashion.

Got mine yesterday but will not be able to play it until Thursday!! The setlist looks fabulous and the liner notes were great.