Pick of the Day, with Discussion

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April 6, 2020 - 9:47am

8,084 replies

marye

Joined:
May 26, 2007

Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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July 17, 2023 - 6:11am

#971

DeadVikes

Joined:
October 26, 2016

Picks

Just returned from a family trip in Northern Minnesota. Beautiful area.
Sorry to hear about all the issues with the HCS Box. I have listened to the first disc of the Iowa show so far. Definitely prefer the digi packs they used in the Spring 90 box sets and the PNW box set. Not sure why each box presentation has to be so different.
I hear we might have a 79 show coming for #47? Interesting this leaked. Has this ever happened before on a Dave's Picks?
So many good shows in October through December 79, looking forward to this one. Will a 79 pick sell out this year?
Will continue to work through the HCS box but I am up for picks if there are any?
July 11, 2023 - 10:52am

#972

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

7/10/70

Not so bad for an old aud!
Yeah, you can definitely get past it if you just listen to the music play!
Really enjoyed the Easy Wind, Sweet Attics, spirited CR&S, but the highlight from me was the cool paring/transition of Cryptical and Cosmic Charlie!
Nice job BC!
July 11, 2023 - 9:23am

#973

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

7/10/70

Those NY 1970 shows.. gotta get the wayback working and just spend the whole year there. Thank god for Marty Weinberg and too bad Bear got taken out of taping January in New Orleans. So a blessing and a tragedy.

I've been reading Jessie Jarnow's "Heads" while stuck at high school basketball games lately. He spends a good bit of time highlighting and contrasting Marty's involvement with taping and his relationship with Latvala. Interesting stuff. I wonder if the other parents have any idea what I am reading about, surely they would never trust me carpooling their kids again if they knew. :D

Anyway, yes it's an audience tape but a decent one for the era and a real piece of American history. It seems you get adjusted to it after a while.. I can't get over how good Jerry's voice was in the early years. A lesson to all you kids out there, don't start smoking (well cigarettes anyway)

Picky opinions.. ha.. I enjoy the critique, sometimes I find myself liking most things GD. Highlights and low spark feedback helps keep me grounded. It certainly shows you are listening.
July 10, 2023 - 9:23pm

#974

bluecrow

Joined:
September 21, 2015

7/10/70 Fillmore East

With apologies, a calendar suggestion - 7/10/70 Fillmore East - only circulating source is an audience and they clap. No matter. A bit of fire-breathing dragon. Yowza wowza. Billy's drum solos seem crazy loud even back in the balcony. Given the audience source maybe not for the faint of heart.

Jim - no better place than the river when its hot!

July '78 box is pure gold (as you all know). My favorite 1st Set ever may be 7/7/78. The Cold Rain and Snow to open Set II is my all-timer. And a little earlier the Eyes from 6/8/77 is a jewel, with that beautiful extended intro, on and on and on.
July 9, 2023 - 5:04pm

#975

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

We b groovin’ here

BTK, are you familiar with Wolfgang’s vault? I’ve not done more than peak in, but my understanding is there’s quite the stash that would probably be very pleasurable to your tastes. Daverock too!

And speaking of, don’t let my picky “opinions” put you off DR. Their great shows, just feel, comparatively, that there might be other, perhaps slightly under the radar (but some on Dicks) shows that are top notch. But that does not mean these are not very enjoyable!

Great Minds, Ha! Had 7/5/78 on while I finished Reading One Way Out by Alan Paul.

Water Heals Amigo! Sounds like you’ve shock the cobwebs (and winter beer fat ; ) and are getting yer river on!
Glad to hear it! Exactly what the doctor orders!
Hey-O, onward!
July 9, 2023 - 3:25pm

#976

billy the kiddd

Joined:
November 8, 2021

9/23/70 Allman Brothers

There is a great video of the Allman Brothers doing Whipping Post from 9/23/70 . Why is this important? Because the Dead played there 9/17,18, 19, & 20/70, maybe they video taped the Dead and these tapes exist. That would be the ultimate if that was the case. This video was probably shot by the Fillmore East staff, and the same was done for the Dead.
July 9, 2023 - 2:11pm

#977

daverock

Joined:
September 1, 2014

7/5/78

Another sparkling show - maybe the best band performance of the first three shows in this collection. Keith seems more present at this one. I like the sound of these shows as well as the playing - very strong and clear. I get the impression they were quite loud if you were there.
As the 73 box is due tomorrow, I think I will save the Red Rocks shows for a bit. Maybe next weekend.
Looking at the posts on the 73 board it's fingers crossed for tomorrow! Reading Oro's post below, I would think these shows are just too long to be top drawer all the way through. I'm really looking forward to hearing them all - but these long 73 shows all had some slow moments from what I have heard.
July 9, 2023 - 12:40pm

#978

JimInMD

Joined:
June 27, 2011

Spirit

That's the spirit.. I am sure they have looked at everything they have and are spreading things out to last.

Speaking of 1980, like many I really liked Dave's Picks 8. Great sound, spirited show.. worthy.

Well.. I've been in my kayak everyday for about a week.. I'm comletely spent and recharging my batteries today listening to a little fine 1978 GD.

Thanks for lifting my spirits Oro and BTK. I guess there are plenty of good shows to come. I hope they still have a trick or three up their sleeves too. Things we might not know exist or do not expect. It's kind of cruel to drop a '69 banana box on us and never hear another mention, don't you think?
July 9, 2023 - 12:05pm

#979

billy the kiddd

Joined:
November 8, 2021

Future boxes

Winter land Oct 1978 Great shows, & Winter land March 1977 great shows, two future boxes.
July 9, 2023 - 11:48am

#980

Oroborous

Joined:
June 19, 2007

Jim’s back with a big blast

Street legal? I didn’t think public consumption was legal anywhere, technically of course, now in reality…

Carful about splinters on that flag pole, bet there’s a nice breeze up there though!

78 box. I didn’t get cause I turned my nose up “ohhh, I don’t need that…” IDIOT!
Prolly pissed that it wasn’t something i “wanted”? Whatevs…idiot!
That and I knew I could get copies off my cousin…, but still, IDIOT!
I do have copies so I’ve heard it, and at first was like meh. But after “discovering” spring 78 and how much I liked it, I’ve come to a different realization of the year and box, but…but, I should spend some more time, just when…?

Made it through 73 box once so far. Haven’t been getting the best listens in (these shows are so long) and it’s just not a good time of year to completely clear mind and listen hard for 4 or 5 hours.

I think the sound is mostly great, the art was nice, and the shows are good, (the packaging was not practical) but I respectfully disagree that their all top shelf. They all have moments, but I didn’t feel like they were at that level for the whole show, which is why I wouldn’t call em all top shelf…so, a solid enjoyable box from one of my favorite years, but I think there’s still better…

So, I respectfully disagree that we’re running out of high caliber shows, definitely diminished but, consider just some of these: first and foremost I’d say the first six shows of 73 are as good or better than these. 2/9 is good, but way overhyped due to years of taper bias. I think it’s as good as most of the shows in the box, but not as good as the other five, but would be a good center point of a very strong box!
I still think there’s good primal, though why they won’t break out I can’t fathom…
There’s still some killer shows from late 71 after KG joined…certainly some hot spring shows too, but not sure they’d sell as well?
There’s still some killer fall 72, though you’d think they’d wait on that a bit!
A plethora of 73! Winter, spring, summer, fall…(ok, prolly will never see a horn tour box) but some representation would be nice. I still say Providence, or Syracuse would make a nice WOTF 50th bonus since their killer shows and have the most songs off the album (6 I think?).
Unless they did a Winterland 74 redo (which I don’t see), 74 prolly doesn’t have a box left.
76 could do another summer box
77 I hope not as it’s over represented, comparatively, but I’m sure there’s some small holes still
78: Spring still has some great shows, some Betty’s, and possibly fall, but I’m not as up on those yet?
79…? not sure about a box? If they made it a 79 box of the whole year, than absolutely!
80, same thing. Of course that’s predicated on Fall tapes not being available…otherwise!
I could name lots of 80s, especially early, but of course that means cassettes, which to some immediately discounts or outright disqualifies…to each there own. I think their getting pretty damn good at fixing them up, but whatevs…
Still hope someday, unfortunately I don’t see it soon, but someday we’ll get a summer 85.
86 through 88, prolly not, though when we’re gone or not as involved, maybe they’ll market something 87 for all the touchers? Of course if they did more venue boxes, i.e., Greek, Frost etc, many of these could come into play

But!!, but, there is still a fine trove of untapped Multies from 89, especially the fall tour (wtf Dave?) and lots of good DATs from the nineties which did have some consistently good tours: summer 90, fall 91, summer 91, some call out spring 91, but I’ve not spent enough time there yet to opinion?
I could argue others, but I don’t see it from a marketing standpoint?
I’m sure heads are spinning and many would argue otherwise. But I’ve put the time in, and if you strip the preconceived pretentious BS and just listen, you’d be surprised.
And though there may NOT be enough good/consistent left for a lot of boxes, there’s tons of individual and small runs, that are very good GD. Hell, they could always do another 30 trips, say for the 60th in gulp, 2 years!
I mean, I get what yer saying, but the more I dig through the years, all the years, I’m still finding juicy nugs of goodness, even some hiding up there where mama hides the cookies!
Be well, stay cool all!
In fact, stay inside where it’s cool, and PLAY DEAD!

John Perry Barlow

John Perry Barlow

Forums

Currently Listening To...

Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

1.3 Rollin

Yo BC!

Just getting into 2/89 DV. Solid, enjoyable, maybe not RJ though..

Early 79 highlights:
All pretty good, unfortunately many Auds only, but some of those were perhaps better than an SB, and some of the SBs aren’t so hot..
Started out on fire but you can hear slight cracks entering the vibe by the end of some of these shows. Burnout and tension perhaps?
Really liked the MSG shows especially the eighth. Of course the 10th.
I can see why Dave Likes the 15, but not sure I found it best of tour.
But man that sequence from playing onward, phew, hell the whole second is great! Next 2 almost as good, then of course the unusual 20, and 21.
A brief speed bump perhaps but they solider on nicely.
By 2/3 their nicely back in step and Dane, still think if there’s tapes it would fit nicely with the rest of the Danes: Great Dane Box! Sorta status quo for the next few, nice Kansas shows, then a good, but not RJ big finale n the 17.
Good show, but enough moments of mishap that I felt it wasn’t RJ.
Too bad there’s no tapes as I could see a few releases here.
Something from MSG, the 10 with DS filler from the 20th, the 15 off of Dave’s list, Dane, somewhere, and BTK 2/17 - 422 idea!

Ok, I’ll get 2 more 89 this week, unless I get 49…

2/4/79

friends had a ticket for me but I chose poorly and didn't make the drive from MN. could've heard a Godchaux era Shakedown and an early Iko. no boards of this but there is of set one night before in Indy with that mid set China > Rider. And don't miss that indy Scarlet > Fire! damn i wish Betty was running reels for these. listening to two four set two now. been awhile since i heard indy so its on the list. that Scarlet guitar break is fire

Wish Betty Was Running Reels

The understatement of the year.

I think much of the late generation shows suffer in comparison to the shows that were properly recorded. True, vocals and harmonies has declined but the band played on.

They are playing 7 7 78 today on Sirius XM as I write this. Boy that Peggy-O was something. What a great run to see as your first show(s)

I let a tiny fart out in the Dave's Picks 49 thread. Music posts don't seem to go through but the test one I made later did. Unfortunately I used up all my patience trying to get the good one through.

that July 78 box

is so very freaking fantastic. a couple weeks ago i revisited omaha 7-5 a k a the waterfall show and it was mind blown - what a screamer

seven seven seven eight

one of my first boots was the superb front of board Wagner audience for that first Red Rocks show Set I and Set II through Scarlet transition. pretty much every song in that first set along with that Cold Rain BIODTL and Scarlet is a favorite version. burned in my brain. its all exactly perfect.

BLUECROW

didn't make the drive. I can empathize with you! as I DID THE SAME THING for englishtown (only 35 mile drive);
my fatal error, major gaffe, momentary lapse of reason, bonehead move, dumbest thing to do; AND yes that decision all these years later still makes me want to laugh out loud & cry all at the same time, so everyone please KICK ME AGAIN!!!

peace all!
uncle_tripel

6/23/74

Needed a change of pace after listening to the fantastic 4/27/85.

6/23/74, Dave's #34. Love this one. Hope you can join me.

Oh and bring on that 2024 box announcement from .......74

Ain't Nothin' Shakin'

So I might just as well since I'm waiting on 49. I think I'll start with the bonus disc.
Cheers

6/23/74

Deadvikes - I'd willingly join you, but I played the 1st cd of 5/17/74 this morning, so I'm a bit out of synch. Incredible time for the Dead - amen to a 1974 box.

Ha!

I was thinking February 74 after first amazing listen to 49!
But 6/23 will work. Then, intermission, then 49 again, then perhaps Greensboro 89 where I left off, then later next week digest February 74 for a few days?

6/23/74 Miami

DeadVikes good call. Have to say i probably listen to the bonus disc to this and the 6/16 &18 Roadtrips a lot... Hope you guys are all doing well!!

"wait a minute..." <- in my best pigpen voice

so Deadvikes I just pulled out my copy of 6/23/74 at your suggestion. I have criminally underplayed this one. I call myself a '74 fan too so idk what my trip has been but anyway I grab the liner notes and unfold that thing and read the story of the photos and then I see the credit... to Forensicdoceleven ?!?! ?!

edit: I know this has surely been discussed already. I seem to have poor luck using the search function on this site, but let me see if I can find old posts, i don't mean to hijack this thread. I just felt a strong need to say "wait a minute!"

#34

Holy shit Bob t! Good to hear from you. It has been a long time. Hope all is well.

Obeah, yes, the Doc was involved with getting Dave the photos, I will let him give you the story. I have no idea how to search comments on this site either. I listened to this a lot when it first came out but haven't listened to it in a while.

I was able to get a full uninterrupted listen in today. My god, so good. One of those shows, where nothing is rushed. Sound quality might be the best 74 material I have heard with the exception of the Grateful Dead MST.
One of my favorite versions of To Lay Me Down. Jerry's guitar work is so moving. Great WRS. Love the Jam out of Seastones and then you get the rest of the second set! What is not to like. That Dark Star Jam, Spanish Jam into a phenomenal US Blues, that takes it's time. UJB, OMSN, Casey Jones to close it out. What a great show!

Dig those PNE shows Daverock and the February shows OB.
Would love some more.

5-22-74

Only made it through the bonus disc as I had anticipated. Life got in the way yesterday. The Playin' went some interesting places I didn't expect. Seems the TOOs and Playin' were the interchangeable space jams in the middle from 72-74. Superb smooth China > Rider. Is there a less than great 1974 show?

IIRC Doc had issues getting his photos back. A trouper to give that gift to us all. Thanks Doc!

Cheers

DHB today!

3/30/89
3/31/89
3/30/94: wow! Neat show! Sometimes…

3/28/89 best of year so far…

Friday: much of 6/23/74
1.3 back there somewhere?

And 49 sprinkled throughout!

Feb 74 on deck…
ONWARD!

3/28/89

Will put this on tomorrow OB. It looks like it is a Pearson Healy Miller. I was at the shows at the Mecca in WI and the old Met Center in Bloomington MN in April of that year. My senior year in HS. What a year! Oh shit that means 35th HS reunion this year.

Music is moonlight in the gloomy night of life......

Been in the hospital for a week with pneumonia, wife with metastatic cancer, life, it seems, has dealt us a harsh hand...............

In regard to Miami. Yes, I supplied the photos, the story is from the deep Dead past, now merely a footnote on a footnote and not so important. I had a chance to make a very minor contribution to the community, so I took it and dealt with the fallout. Bad feelings yes, long since discharged, let's focus on the music.........

It was, after all, the kind of magic that only the Dead could conjure. Very fine and very interersting, consumate quirky gooey good old Grateful Dead. Apart from Providence (my second show), my favorite 1974 outing...........

Rock on,

Doc

Best wishes

For Doc & the Mrs.
You're the best.

Doc sorry to hear the news

Doc, I'm sorry to hear your news,I hope things will get better for you and your wife.

Doc

So sorry you and your wife are going through this hard time.

Doc

Sorry to hear that no good news. Best wishes and best of luck to you and your wife.

thanks Doc

Well let me just take this opportunity to say 'thanks for the photos', and meantime, I'm so sorry to hear that your health is going through a rough spot, and your wife's situation sounds even more serious. Much sympathy.

Doc

Doc, sorry to hear about the health issues with you and your wife.
I hope it gets better for the two of you.

Sorry Doc

Best wishes to you and the Mrs.
Cancer sucks.

SUPER4DTOTO

Sorry to hear that no good news. Best wishes and best of luck to you and your wife.

The Good Doctor

Sending best wishes your way Doc. There's not much we can do or say but we are thinking of you both in the best of all possible ways.

best wishes and hopes

Thinking of you and yours, Doc. Heartfelt wishes that your connection to the medical community results in the best possible care in Jville. Though we have never met, special discovering you were an unknown neighbor eons ago here in the land of big green, that we happened to be at Lewiston and maybe Boston shows. Thanks for your devotion and contributions to these boards.

So sorry to hear this

Doc, six years ago my wife was diagnosed with cancer and I rode in a similar horribly difficult sidecar.

Hope for some gentle days ahead for you and yours, and sending healing vibes your way.

"that path is for your steps alone"

Doc

been sidelined a bit too and just read about this, so sorry to hear of you and your wife's medical woes. Hopefully the VA can help with this and that the bill won't be out of this world. I hope for the very best for both of you. Keep on Keeping on my Florida bro. Get well soon.

Aaaa FFS!

So sorry to hear bout you and the misses Doc.
Effin cancer cancer cancer, Marsha Marsha Marsha, man it seems to be all we hear these daze. In stead of pissing billions away on space pipe dreams, and tax breaks for uber corporations, how bout we cure cancer and clean up our home we’ve turned into a cesspool!

Be well, and may the music heal!
Our thoughts are with you!

Onward Dr. and Mrs. Doc

Even though most of us have never met "ForensicDocEleven" in person, your good spirit shines through on these pages year in and year out. Words fail me, but, right now, I'm adding whatever energy I can in hopes you and Mrs. Doc get through this smooth and soon. Onward brother.

3/28/89

Good show OB. Thank you for the recommendation. Great mix. LTGTR, Franklins, Stranger! Nice start. Stagger Lee. Memphis Blues. Really good flow to the first set.
Good second set Playing, Foolish Heart. Always enjoy a Box of Rain encore.

Decided to revisit Ladies and Gentlemen this afternoon. Wow! Bob Matthews and Betty did a great job with these recordings. Is it too late to go back and give us all these Fillmore East shows in a box?

DV

Vguy recommended 3/28 as a POTD awhile ago.
I rehit it for enjoyment and comparison etc

Hit the first six of 84 since, with some 6/24/85 and some of February 74 too.

Thinking 2/27/69 for Doc! Big medicine!

Going to continue with 84 and 89, perhaps try another 94.
I’ll let you know if anything moves me…

Go Niners!

Big Medicine

I'm down for some 2 27 69 Big Medicine.

I haven't gotten to 3 28 89 yet but I did hit Miami 74. That Cumberland snuck up on me, great picking and then there are the other highlights that shined just as bright this week and I remembered. The recording might have shot up a notch too.

Big Medicine, which reminds me I go under the knife for my shoulder Friday. My ills do not compare but I will take the Big Medicine offer from the kind people here. Believe it if you need it, right.

Sports Fans

Okay OB. If I only had those 69 shows.

Anyway, decided to go with 6/14/76 from the Beacon Theatre. The June 76 Box still shines.

Enjoy your Superbowl Sunday out there.

Hope your surgery goes well Jim.

Thanks DV

I have to hit those 76 shows again.

Funny.. those post haitus releases shook me out of my 68 through 74 comfort zone, there was a period when I just couldn't get enough 80's (and 90's, toss in some 79 for good measure). High octane GD. I hit the Giants box pretty hard but spent some time in 85 (of course), Spring 90 and several shows in 89. I just couldn't get enough.

But hitting Dave's 49 through several listens was a nice aperitif and More 74 broke the spell. They played the WRS>Row Jimmy from DaP 13 on my drive home last night. Icing on the cake.

Grateful Dead, good for what ails (ales) you.

Thanks so much for keeping the spirit going. I'm mostly keeping up.

DaP 13 1974

What's the story with Jerry's F... SUNY t-shirt from the photo in the liner notes? I remember seeing it before but couldn't seem to bring up a story. GD played there going back to 1970? Sounds like some discontent there.
Cheers

SUNY

Ha, as a proud alumnus of the “fine” institution lol, seems like something a student would come up with? Perhaps it’s as simple as JG thought it was funny, or a student offered it up as a joke? But now of course you went and did it lol, so now we have another mystery for Inspector Lose O!
Damn you fist show! ; )
DV, anything, just ask…
JIM, hope that doc isn’t stingy with the propofol, hear that shommer shit is very
Owey. We will of course be thinking good thoughts, any last, er a, I mean any requests for while your elsewhere? ; )

2-11-86

For tomorrow?
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Actually on a Fat Tuesday in '86.
For my friend "Swamp" who would always skip class for a week to go back home to N.O. for Mardi Gras.
Cheers
Edit: Is there an official release of this?

Positive Vibes

On your surgery Jim.
Hope all goes well brother!

2/11/86

I'm still off work on disability from Legionnaire's Disease, so I'll do 2/11/86 tomorrow.
Don't think there's been an official release, but there's a cassette soundboard patch on the archive.
Uploaded by Jonathan Auizen.

Good luck Jimbo

Hoping for a successful surgery and quick recovery.

2/11/86

Rollin!

Went with the HS matrix?

If ya dig 86 I highly recommend 3/24/86…

Excellent (in the Mr. Burns voice)

What a pleasant surprise! Lively show with a killer start, great set list, and in an unusual order. Was Jerry in one of his "clean" phases? Can't get more authentic on the Iko-Iko than with the Nevilles! And the drums segments (plural) were a treat. It's clear the band was having a great time. What a difference that can make.
Cheers

2/11/86

That was a good show.
Wild transition into Truckin.

The Nevilles

Added so much to the second set. Those extra guitar riffs during the second NFA > Hey Bo Diddley > GDTRFB really complemented the boys' playing so well. Let the good times roll!
Cheers

RE 2/11/86

Fun enjoyable show!
HS matrix was good.
I’d call it good, but not RJ: fun, good energy, but a tad sloppy in spots.
JG struggles occasionally I.e., Might as Well. But that isn’t a problem for me…
Think this was first year doing the MG drum thing?
If yer into that, I know I liked the tape I had from 89 of it…
Nice to do something completely different.

2/15/73

Dane County Coliseum
I'm rolling this one today if anyone else wants to?
This was one of the first tapes I acquired back when I first started going to shows on a regular basis.
There's a good matrix on the archive.
Peace

Rolling in 84 TN

But that show MUST be released!
Finished hitting all of 73 last year and I think the first six shows of the year would make a killer box, better than HCS!
Or,
A Great Dane Box, all the remaining Dane shows including the 2 73 reels…
Enjoy, that is a awesome show, RJ for sure!

EDIT: it’s on Dave’s list too, so…

2/15/73 Dane County

Happy anniversary Dark Star blip....... Also anyone see Two Towers Documentary on Fall 73 Tours??