• 8,080 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Net reply, V1, and outed by Jimbo!

    Dammit Jim, now my secret is out....part of why they put me in that dog getup, easier to contain!

    VAULT 1: what GOGD said “Thanks UA & Rackow: yeah, I member all the excitement when the first stuff started trickling out, and the quality, Oy! Funny now how we critique many of the earlier generation releases now, but back then it was like gettin some when you were young!

    DEADVIKES: if you have the wire in your house, id try just hardwiring stuff and adding a net switch. That shouldn’t cost you that much and it should help. Later you can always upgrade the other components if you want, but hardwiring stuff will help with any application. (To see what wire you have find your phone distribution point. There should be a at least one wire per room. If there is several of the same type, it should be marked on the side. If it’s cat 5 or better your good to go.

    Ok, now time to fire up 8/13/75!

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    King Solomon's Marbles > Stronger Than Dirt

    What a First Set!!

    Can only imagine what it was like to see this band back then, literally :)

    That's gotta be up there with greatest ever Set 1.. if there is such a thing
    EDIT: Forgot 3/2/69 in my excitement.. so never mind the "greatest ever" language, Great Set 1!

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    I Think We Should Thank United Artist & Mr. Ron Rakow

    Sleigh Bells Ring, are you listening?

    I can still remember how excited I was when they announced One From The Vault

    When I got the 2 CD set (which is next to me and has very small print that I can barely read now, but no "Disc Rot";) and listened to the music contained within it was a revelation:

    This show is amazing! And it's complete and sounds incredible! This is how it could be! This could change everything! I could get all the shows sounding like this! They might release like a show a month or something! It's going to be off the hook! How will I afford it all?!?!

    1991 the flood gates opened
    with a trickle..

    pretty cool

    PS -
    The Sleigh Bells in Slipknot!
    The Harmonies in The Music Never Stopped..
    Oh Boy!
    I love this show:)

    Be Well All, got some Fun Listening to do today.

  • Dennis
    Joined:
    Make Believe Ballroom

    Was a radio show for many years on WNEW radio NY. I gather it started about 1935, movie was made under that title in 49. Steve Allen ran the show for a while also.

    Goog the name. The things we can learn here.

  • bob t
    Joined:
    8/13/75 great choice

    This tape is what pulled me in. It's interesting if you have ever heard the full intro, where Bill Graham talks about Ron Rakow and his bet with him that he was being paid 50$. It is right after, "We welcome you on behalf of the group".... After listening to the intro version of one from the vault and what I had on my Make Believe Ballroom tape, it just sounds weird because the intro is awesome!! bob t

  • daverock
    Joined:
    8/13/75 on the radio

    An hour of this show was broadcast on British radio sometime late in 1975. Consequently, my first Dead tape.

  • The Good Ole G…
    Joined:
    Make Believe Ballroom

    Good stuff!

    JIMINMD - Make Believe Ballroom pretty “famous” early bootleg record of 8/13/75 from the Amazing Kornyfone Record Label.

    I think they fetch a pretty penny from collectors these days.

    Cool info here - http://www.gratefulseconds.com/2018/02/?m=1

    Fun Discussions tonight all.

    Good info and Good tunes tomorrow.

    Until then be well

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    8/13/75

    Yes, this is the ticket for tomorrow.

    Oroborous, appreciate the information.

    Sounds like I am not in the league of your customers, which is okay. I am more of the pub links player. Anyway, at a minimum it sounds like I should invest in a new router and modem with the extra Wifi connections around the house.

    Do you wonder why I like the old school wired system playing CDs.

    Do you know how much time I have spent on the phone with Sonos customer service??

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Ha.. Re: Net Wiring

    Aren't we all geeks in our own way? I couldn't help but read that whole post, much of it lost on me.

    But it lead me to a conclusion. Correct.. Oro, you are not an IT professional. ..but perhaps a bot. not a Russian Bot or a Facebook Bot.. our own SF peace bot.

    I mean that in the most respectful way, hope I did not offend. In a way, Oroborous.. you are all we have in our freak fight against the tyrannists and enemies. We need our own bot.

    Sorry for the diversion. Again, meant with the utmost respect and hopefully a perceived tread of good nature and humor.

    Cousins, thanks for that info.. So that's the source of that language on my tape. Does anyone know the source? The Great American Music Hall is not called the Make Believe Ballroom, right? Was this just a clever name for a bootleg LP to get it past the TM and Copyright folks? There must be another half of this story.

    I guess it doesn't matter if we don't solve this riddle, but how on earth did that LP get it's name?

    Nite all.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Re: Deadvikes/net wiring

    To those not interested, please skip and except my apologies

    First, disclaimer: I am not a IT, computer, or network professional, in fact, when it comes to computers I’m way behind the curve. That being said, I am a custom AV professional which usually requires installing commercial grade networks in the home. I’ve done hundreds over the years. So I have a lot of experience using many AV products both wireless and hard wired. Why, because when you have home automation, Lighting, HVAC, Pool/spas, Security, AV, gaming, WiFi and more on one home network that’s a lot of bandwidth, no matter how many MBS/gigs your paying for. Your network is the foundation that all your net gear lives and depends on. You wouldn’t build your house on a cardboard foundation so you shouldn’t build your network on a insufficient one either!
    SONOS: you are correct that one of the main selling points for Sonos or any of the “wireless” audio products is reasonable stability over WiFi (of course always depending on service. Just like your water main the pipe is only so big)...the biggest of all reasons Sonos is ahead of the pack is their user interface. So with decent service you can certainly enjoy over WiFi, but like you mentioned if everyone is on line at the same time it’s like having every water facet and toilet going at once...,the pipe is only so big...streaming of course is the biggest drain of all.
    I won’t get all in on the phsycics, and I’d probably do a lousy job, but generally, a properly hardwired connection is going to be better: faster, less latency, more BW, and certainly more stable/reliable. I’ve seen situations where the IT guy had me disconnect a HW feed and use a meshed WAP, but that’s mostly because the WiFi gear was new, robust, and of course somewhat oversold lol. The wiring and switches were ancient crap....I may have been trying to use only four conductors which limits you to only 10/100. But that’s only happened a few times in 13 years!
    By comparison our nets are at least 1-5 gig capable, but our bigger new jobs have been 10 gig to try and future proof (as much as that’s possible anymore). Often these start getting into fiber, But I digress...
    Also, even if it’s not that time of day when the whole neighborhood is sucking on basically the same pipe, I’m sure you’ve still experienced huge speed drops, latency, and even severe buffering etc when the whole family is using all those wireless devices. So the more things you can take off WiFi and hardwire, the more those HW devices will benefit from the “bigger pipe” that the wire usually provides, but at the same time, the devices that are still over WiFi will also work better because removing streaming devices off essentially provides “more pipe” for the remaining WiFi devices.
    It’s all about the pipe baby: bigger, faster, stronger...
    The last job I was on before the VID was over 10K Square foot house. It has Comcast gig plus service, using an upgraded surfboard modem, 4 port commercial Router, 4- 48 port Poe switches, Ruckus Zone Director to air traffic control bandwidth where need via the 16 commercial grade Ruckus WAPs (all hardwired on cat five or better). All critical infrastructure gear is on Bluebolts for remote ip monitoring and rebooting.
    Besides the 16 Crestron hardwired touchscreens, there are probably a dozen iPads for control of all house subsystems. The 20+ cameras are now all nest over wifi which is a huge bandwidth drain, but that’s what the owner wanted. Throw in all the personal devices of the owners and up to 15 guests, and six in house servants and five large equipment racks of gear (even amplifiers now are ip controlled) and that’s a shit ton of bandwidth. A normal home network would not function!
    Obviously I assume most folks don’t have those needs, but the infrastructure methodology is the same.

    So for a “typical” house (there is no such thing but for simplicity)
    - Best pipe (service) you can get. Preferably on fiber or Coax if possible.
    - Buy your own upgraded modem. For a couple hundred bucks that you’ll make up by not renting one.
    - Research and get best Router you can
    - Use strategic placement of WAPs over full cat 5 or better. Six is the norm, but we sometimes pull cat 7, 8, and/or fiber.
    This depends on how many floors, walls, building materials etc, square footage. Like much of this too much is better than not enough. Think brick shithouse from BITD...
    Usually the cat for your phones all homerun back to your headend or main distribution point. Depending on where that is and if there’s adequate power nearby, you can place all your gear there, or if possible, place a robust net switch there. Obviously for switch size you’ll need to figure out how many devices you’ll want to H.W. depending on how May wires you have. It’s usualky much easier to have at least enough Poe ports to power WAPs (make sure you’ll have enough wattage). You can find all kinds of wall trim to terminate similar to how your phone or net are trimmed on your walls, or if long enough wire just terminate RJ 45 etc. You’ll need to terminate all the ends at the net switch. A decent cable tester is a real help to ensure proper terminations. Inevitably you’ll need to test from end to end using all wires and splices/connections.
    So you have your service feed to your modem, a net cabl from modem to router, router to your switch or switches, and your WAPs hardwired to your switch (s). If done properly using good gear (find gear with specks way above what you think you need, it can be money well spent, remember, your trying to build a brick shithouse, not a cheap tent! ), you can make your network more robust, stable and therefore enjoyable! It’s like buying a car with a big engine, you don’t akways need it but when you do and you put the hammer down, you’ll be glad you have that headroom.
    Obviously many folks dont need so much, but even a additional switch with hardwired devices out of your provider modem can help when supply is getting stretched thin.
    No matter how big or small or what your needs are, always hardwire when possible! That’s what I’ve found works best, cause it’s all about the pipe!
    Hope this is understandable and helps. Sorry if I didn’t explain well.

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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In reply to by bluecrow

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Yo BC!

Just getting into 2/89 DV. Solid, enjoyable, maybe not RJ though..

Early 79 highlights:
All pretty good, unfortunately many Auds only, but some of those were perhaps better than an SB, and some of the SBs aren’t so hot..
Started out on fire but you can hear slight cracks entering the vibe by the end of some of these shows. Burnout and tension perhaps?
Really liked the MSG shows especially the eighth. Of course the 10th.
I can see why Dave Likes the 15, but not sure I found it best of tour.
But man that sequence from playing onward, phew, hell the whole second is great! Next 2 almost as good, then of course the unusual 20, and 21.
A brief speed bump perhaps but they solider on nicely.
By 2/3 their nicely back in step and Dane, still think if there’s tapes it would fit nicely with the rest of the Danes: Great Dane Box! Sorta status quo for the next few, nice Kansas shows, then a good, but not RJ big finale n the 17.
Good show, but enough moments of mishap that I felt it wasn’t RJ.
Too bad there’s no tapes as I could see a few releases here.
Something from MSG, the 10 with DS filler from the 20th, the 15 off of Dave’s list, Dane, somewhere, and BTK 2/17 - 422 idea!

Ok, I’ll get 2 more 89 this week, unless I get 49…

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In reply to by Oroborous

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friends had a ticket for me but I chose poorly and didn't make the drive from MN. could've heard a Godchaux era Shakedown and an early Iko. no boards of this but there is of set one night before in Indy with that mid set China > Rider. And don't miss that indy Scarlet > Fire! damn i wish Betty was running reels for these. listening to two four set two now. been awhile since i heard indy so its on the list. that Scarlet guitar break is fire

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In reply to by bluecrow

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The understatement of the year.

I think much of the late generation shows suffer in comparison to the shows that were properly recorded. True, vocals and harmonies has declined but the band played on.

They are playing 7 7 78 today on Sirius XM as I write this. Boy that Peggy-O was something. What a great run to see as your first show(s)

I let a tiny fart out in the Dave's Picks 49 thread. Music posts don't seem to go through but the test one I made later did. Unfortunately I used up all my patience trying to get the good one through.

is so very freaking fantastic. a couple weeks ago i revisited omaha 7-5 a k a the waterfall show and it was mind blown - what a screamer

one of my first boots was the superb front of board Wagner audience for that first Red Rocks show Set I and Set II through Scarlet transition. pretty much every song in that first set along with that Cold Rain BIODTL and Scarlet is a favorite version. burned in my brain. its all exactly perfect.

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didn't make the drive. I can empathize with you! as I DID THE SAME THING for englishtown (only 35 mile drive);
my fatal error, major gaffe, momentary lapse of reason, bonehead move, dumbest thing to do; AND yes that decision all these years later still makes me want to laugh out loud & cry all at the same time, so everyone please KICK ME AGAIN!!!

peace all!
uncle_tripel

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In reply to by uncle_tripel

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Needed a change of pace after listening to the fantastic 4/27/85.

6/23/74, Dave's #34. Love this one. Hope you can join me.

Oh and bring on that 2024 box announcement from .......74

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So I might just as well since I'm waiting on 49. I think I'll start with the bonus disc.
Cheers

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Deadvikes - I'd willingly join you, but I played the 1st cd of 5/17/74 this morning, so I'm a bit out of synch. Incredible time for the Dead - amen to a 1974 box.

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In reply to by daverock

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I was thinking February 74 after first amazing listen to 49!
But 6/23 will work. Then, intermission, then 49 again, then perhaps Greensboro 89 where I left off, then later next week digest February 74 for a few days?

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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DeadVikes good call. Have to say i probably listen to the bonus disc to this and the 6/16 &18 Roadtrips a lot... Hope you guys are all doing well!!

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so Deadvikes I just pulled out my copy of 6/23/74 at your suggestion. I have criminally underplayed this one. I call myself a '74 fan too so idk what my trip has been but anyway I grab the liner notes and unfold that thing and read the story of the photos and then I see the credit... to Forensicdoceleven ?!?! ?!

edit: I know this has surely been discussed already. I seem to have poor luck using the search function on this site, but let me see if I can find old posts, i don't mean to hijack this thread. I just felt a strong need to say "wait a minute!"

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Holy shit Bob t! Good to hear from you. It has been a long time. Hope all is well.

Obeah, yes, the Doc was involved with getting Dave the photos, I will let him give you the story. I have no idea how to search comments on this site either. I listened to this a lot when it first came out but haven't listened to it in a while.

I was able to get a full uninterrupted listen in today. My god, so good. One of those shows, where nothing is rushed. Sound quality might be the best 74 material I have heard with the exception of the Grateful Dead MST.
One of my favorite versions of To Lay Me Down. Jerry's guitar work is so moving. Great WRS. Love the Jam out of Seastones and then you get the rest of the second set! What is not to like. That Dark Star Jam, Spanish Jam into a phenomenal US Blues, that takes it's time. UJB, OMSN, Casey Jones to close it out. What a great show!

Dig those PNE shows Daverock and the February shows OB.
Would love some more.

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Only made it through the bonus disc as I had anticipated. Life got in the way yesterday. The Playin' went some interesting places I didn't expect. Seems the TOOs and Playin' were the interchangeable space jams in the middle from 72-74. Superb smooth China > Rider. Is there a less than great 1974 show?

IIRC Doc had issues getting his photos back. A trouper to give that gift to us all. Thanks Doc!

Cheers

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In reply to by 1stshow70878

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3/30/89
3/31/89
3/30/94: wow! Neat show! Sometimes…

3/28/89 best of year so far…

Friday: much of 6/23/74
1.3 back there somewhere?

And 49 sprinkled throughout!

Feb 74 on deck…
ONWARD!

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Will put this on tomorrow OB. It looks like it is a Pearson Healy Miller. I was at the shows at the Mecca in WI and the old Met Center in Bloomington MN in April of that year. My senior year in HS. What a year! Oh shit that means 35th HS reunion this year.

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Been in the hospital for a week with pneumonia, wife with metastatic cancer, life, it seems, has dealt us a harsh hand...............

In regard to Miami. Yes, I supplied the photos, the story is from the deep Dead past, now merely a footnote on a footnote and not so important. I had a chance to make a very minor contribution to the community, so I took it and dealt with the fallout. Bad feelings yes, long since discharged, let's focus on the music.........

It was, after all, the kind of magic that only the Dead could conjure. Very fine and very interersting, consumate quirky gooey good old Grateful Dead. Apart from Providence (my second show), my favorite 1974 outing...........

Rock on,

Doc

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For Doc & the Mrs.
You're the best.

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Doc, I'm sorry to hear your news,I hope things will get better for you and your wife.

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So sorry you and your wife are going through this hard time.
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In reply to by marye

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Sorry to hear that no good news. Best wishes and best of luck to you and your wife.

Well let me just take this opportunity to say 'thanks for the photos', and meantime, I'm so sorry to hear that your health is going through a rough spot, and your wife's situation sounds even more serious. Much sympathy.

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In reply to by marye

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Doc, sorry to hear about the health issues with you and your wife.
I hope it gets better for the two of you.

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Sorry to hear that no good news. Best wishes and best of luck to you and your wife.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Sending best wishes your way Doc. There's not much we can do or say but we are thinking of you both in the best of all possible ways.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Thinking of you and yours, Doc. Heartfelt wishes that your connection to the medical community results in the best possible care in Jville. Though we have never met, special discovering you were an unknown neighbor eons ago here in the land of big green, that we happened to be at Lewiston and maybe Boston shows. Thanks for your devotion and contributions to these boards.

Doc, six years ago my wife was diagnosed with cancer and I rode in a similar horribly difficult sidecar.

Hope for some gentle days ahead for you and yours, and sending healing vibes your way.

"that path is for your steps alone"

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been sidelined a bit too and just read about this, so sorry to hear of you and your wife's medical woes. Hopefully the VA can help with this and that the bill won't be out of this world. I hope for the very best for both of you. Keep on Keeping on my Florida bro. Get well soon.

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In reply to by PT Barnum

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So sorry to hear bout you and the misses Doc.
Effin cancer cancer cancer, Marsha Marsha Marsha, man it seems to be all we hear these daze. In stead of pissing billions away on space pipe dreams, and tax breaks for uber corporations, how bout we cure cancer and clean up our home we’ve turned into a cesspool!

Be well, and may the music heal!
Our thoughts are with you!

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Even though most of us have never met "ForensicDocEleven" in person, your good spirit shines through on these pages year in and year out. Words fail me, but, right now, I'm adding whatever energy I can in hopes you and Mrs. Doc get through this smooth and soon. Onward brother.

Good show OB. Thank you for the recommendation. Great mix. LTGTR, Franklins, Stranger! Nice start. Stagger Lee. Memphis Blues. Really good flow to the first set.
Good second set Playing, Foolish Heart. Always enjoy a Box of Rain encore.

Decided to revisit Ladies and Gentlemen this afternoon. Wow! Bob Matthews and Betty did a great job with these recordings. Is it too late to go back and give us all these Fillmore East shows in a box?

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Vguy recommended 3/28 as a POTD awhile ago.
I rehit it for enjoyment and comparison etc

Hit the first six of 84 since, with some 6/24/85 and some of February 74 too.

Thinking 2/27/69 for Doc! Big medicine!

Going to continue with 84 and 89, perhaps try another 94.
I’ll let you know if anything moves me…

Go Niners!

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In reply to by Oroborous

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I'm down for some 2 27 69 Big Medicine.

I haven't gotten to 3 28 89 yet but I did hit Miami 74. That Cumberland snuck up on me, great picking and then there are the other highlights that shined just as bright this week and I remembered. The recording might have shot up a notch too.

Big Medicine, which reminds me I go under the knife for my shoulder Friday. My ills do not compare but I will take the Big Medicine offer from the kind people here. Believe it if you need it, right.

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Okay OB. If I only had those 69 shows.

Anyway, decided to go with 6/14/76 from the Beacon Theatre. The June 76 Box still shines.

Enjoy your Superbowl Sunday out there.

Hope your surgery goes well Jim.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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I have to hit those 76 shows again.

Funny.. those post haitus releases shook me out of my 68 through 74 comfort zone, there was a period when I just couldn't get enough 80's (and 90's, toss in some 79 for good measure). High octane GD. I hit the Giants box pretty hard but spent some time in 85 (of course), Spring 90 and several shows in 89. I just couldn't get enough.

But hitting Dave's 49 through several listens was a nice aperitif and More 74 broke the spell. They played the WRS>Row Jimmy from DaP 13 on my drive home last night. Icing on the cake.

Grateful Dead, good for what ails (ales) you.

Thanks so much for keeping the spirit going. I'm mostly keeping up.

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What's the story with Jerry's F... SUNY t-shirt from the photo in the liner notes? I remember seeing it before but couldn't seem to bring up a story. GD played there going back to 1970? Sounds like some discontent there.
Cheers

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In reply to by 1stshow70878

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Ha, as a proud alumnus of the “fine” institution lol, seems like something a student would come up with? Perhaps it’s as simple as JG thought it was funny, or a student offered it up as a joke? But now of course you went and did it lol, so now we have another mystery for Inspector Lose O!
Damn you fist show! ; )
DV, anything, just ask…
JIM, hope that doc isn’t stingy with the propofol, hear that shommer shit is very
Owey. We will of course be thinking good thoughts, any last, er a, I mean any requests for while your elsewhere? ; )

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For tomorrow?
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Actually on a Fat Tuesday in '86.
For my friend "Swamp" who would always skip class for a week to go back home to N.O. for Mardi Gras.
Cheers
Edit: Is there an official release of this?

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On your surgery Jim.
Hope all goes well brother!

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11 years 3 months

In reply to by 1stshow70878

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I'm still off work on disability from Legionnaire's Disease, so I'll do 2/11/86 tomorrow.
Don't think there's been an official release, but there's a cassette soundboard patch on the archive.
Uploaded by Jonathan Auizen.

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9 years

In reply to by TN John

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Hoping for a successful surgery and quick recovery.

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17 years 4 months

In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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Rollin!

Went with the HS matrix?

If ya dig 86 I highly recommend 3/24/86…

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What a pleasant surprise! Lively show with a killer start, great set list, and in an unusual order. Was Jerry in one of his "clean" phases? Can't get more authentic on the Iko-Iko than with the Nevilles! And the drums segments (plural) were a treat. It's clear the band was having a great time. What a difference that can make.
Cheers

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Added so much to the second set. Those extra guitar riffs during the second NFA > Hey Bo Diddley > GDTRFB really complemented the boys' playing so well. Let the good times roll!
Cheers

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In reply to by 1stshow70878

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Fun enjoyable show!
HS matrix was good.
I’d call it good, but not RJ: fun, good energy, but a tad sloppy in spots.
JG struggles occasionally I.e., Might as Well. But that isn’t a problem for me…
Think this was first year doing the MG drum thing?
If yer into that, I know I liked the tape I had from 89 of it…
Nice to do something completely different.

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Dane County Coliseum
I'm rolling this one today if anyone else wants to?
This was one of the first tapes I acquired back when I first started going to shows on a regular basis.
There's a good matrix on the archive.
Peace

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In reply to by TN John

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But that show MUST be released!
Finished hitting all of 73 last year and I think the first six shows of the year would make a killer box, better than HCS!
Or,
A Great Dane Box, all the remaining Dane shows including the 2 73 reels…
Enjoy, that is a awesome show, RJ for sure!

EDIT: it’s on Dave’s list too, so…

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16 years 11 months
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Happy anniversary Dark Star blip....... Also anyone see Two Towers Documentary on Fall 73 Tours??