I’m generalizing somewhat, but it seems as though the Dead Heads who have chimed in here on various topics favor one (or more) of five eras of Grateful Dead music: the primal psychedelic beast of ’68-’69; the ’72-’74 group with Keith and Donna, pre-hiatus; the same group, with Mickey added, in ’77-’78; the early Brent years from ’80-’85; and the post Jerry coma years from ’88-’90. (Yes, I know there are many who love all the years I didn’t mention—including me! Just go with my premise, please.)
But you hear very little love or even much respect for the post-Brent years, especially once Bruce Hornsby is out of the picture in mid-’92. There are, of course, multiple reasons for this.
Many Dead Heads never warmed up to Brent’s replacement, Vince Welnick (just as thousands of mostly older Heads never warmed up to Brent during his 11-year stint with the band). Vince had a lot of things going against him when he joined the group. He was banned from playing B-3 (like Brent) or an acoustic grand piano (like Keith), and was instead saddled with a rather harsh electronic keyboard with sounds pre-programmed for him by the band’s resident MIDI whiz, Bob Bralove. A lot of the timbres that were chosen for him were, frankly, cheesy-sounding—it was a couple of years before he had a decent B-3 sound in his arsenal (and it was never as full and rich as real B-3).
Though an excellent technical player, he did not have a background as a soloist particularly, and since his younger days had not played in a band that actually jammed. He turned some people off by consistently using his MIDI saxophone sound on the jam after “Estimated Prophet” (which he had learned, he admitted, from the album version of the song—sacrilege!— featuring Tom Scott), tossing bird effects into “Birdsong” and occasionally overdoing the atmospheric textures on “Stella Blue” and other ballads. His first songwriting contribution, “Way to Go Home,” was accepted by many at first, but then lost its luster to some when it became one of the most common songs the Dead played and appeared exclusively in second sets. “Samba in the Rain” was even less popular.
I can’t argue with any of those points, yet my experience of Vince was almost entirely positive. I loved his upbeat onstage demeanor (especially compared to Brent, who was often so dark and surly towards the end). Some of the new colors he brought to the group’s sound were cool and imaginative. I dug his choice of cover tunes—“Baba O’Riley,” “It’s All Too Much”—and wish he’d gotten to sing more. As time went on, he played better and chose more appropriate sounds. I liked his harmony singing. I am not a Vince detractor at all. On a personal level, I had the opportunity to interview him a few times (during his Dead years and after) and I found him to be bright and friendly; a really good guy.
And there was plenty of other stuff going on in the Grateful Dead besides Vince from ’92-’95 that was disturbing/dismaying. A few of the other band members’ new song contributions were greeted with indifference and hostility by some. (As usual, it’s all just personal taste. I loved “Corrinna” and “If the Shoe Fits.” So sue me.) Poor Vince’s ascension also coincided with Garcia’s decline. The whole band tried so hard during ’94 and ’95 to make up for Garcia’s lapses, some of which were drug-related but also affected by his obvious physical deterioration. The lack of precision in his playing was partly from losing feeling in his fingers due to his ongoing struggle with diabetes. His heart disease contributed to his brain not getting enough oxygen. You know the whole grim story.
But through it all, the band gamely persevered and often rose to amazing heights. A show in which Garcia seemed spaced and/or distracted for long stretches might have an incredible “Wharf Rat” or a killer “Scarlet-Fire.” There were beautiful and moving versions of late-period gems such as “Lazy River Road,” “So Many Roads” and “Days Between.” Sometimes the chemistry and interaction among everyone except Jerry was enough to elevate a show. Remember that period when a bunch of the band members got into yoga and suddenly seemed to connect in special ways?
It was also a period when thousands upon thousands of new Dead Heads fell in love with the band for many of the same reasons us older fans did. So, we can sit here and be all critical and nitpicky (for good reason!), but it obviously still worked on some level; that essential Grateful Dead X-factor still had the power to reel in newbies until the bitter end—and to occasionally satiate old-timers like yours truly, too.
Two of the last three shows I saw—at Shoreline Amphitheatre in early June ’95—left me feeling hopeful and optimistic about the future of the band. Even with all the horror stories emanating from the road on that grisly, nightmarish summer of ’95 jaunt (the “Death Tour” we called it, even before Jerry died), when word came down that Jerry had gone into rehab shortly after the final show in Chicago, I figured the next Grateful Dead renaissance was right around the corner. (Believe it or not, I never had that feeling of impending doom that so many of you did in ’94-’95. I’ve always been an optimist to a fault.) Alas, it was not to be.
Tell us about some of your experiences of the post-Brent era. I’d love to hear about the shows that you enjoyed and that you think we should check out (Boston Garden 10/1/94 is loved by many, for instance, as are the two Salt Lake City ’95 shows and various Las Vegas shows from the ’90s). And if you hated everything post-Brent, tell us why. Would you buy CDs of a ’94 or ’95 show, or should David Lemieux stick to earlier years? How do you feel about the few Dick’s Picks and Road Trips releases that have come from the final era?
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Post Brent (RIP)? It's better than nothing.
Vince (RIP) had a challenge on his hands. He did well to soldier on.
Eugene 93 has a great Vince moment in HCS, with his key fills: Heeeere (badadadaba) cooommmmesss (badadadaba)...
He did his job well. I am not extremely familiar with GDpost-86, but have heard enough to know that Vince was as good as anyone to fill Brent's shoes.
God bless you, Vince.
and don't forget Bruce Hornsby!
Eugene 93
Eugene 94
LV 6/26/94
Seattle 95
1991: 6/14, 6/17, 6/22
After Brent
From the position of working for the band from February 1983 until March of 1996 and touring with them from 1992 on I got to know Vince to some degree. He was so excited to be part of the Grateful Dead and loved being able to musically let go after all those years playing strictly arranged music with The Tubes, etc. He really let lose in other bands after Jerry died.
I know he was not thrilled about being limited to an electronic keyboard...He did tell me that he liked his B-3 sample because it was Garth Hudson!
I felt his harmonies were harsh, but I loved the covers he brought to the band.
Vince and I shared severe and chronic depression which is not exactly an easy thing to deal with. It has been especially hard for me since Jerry died...working for the Grateful Dead was a dream job that I had thought about since I was about 20...the hard thing about having your dreams fulfilled is not planning for an after life...But I am still here and getting ready to go to Cleveland!
Magic in the music
A funny memory that comes to mind is during the Drums at Soldier Field 95, Mickey started playing something and a friend said to me- 'We're in China.' I met a tour veteran once in 1994- He said one of his greatest memories was banging on the stage in front of Jerry at the Dekalb show on 10/29/77. I asked him what he thought of the band now- His reply was- When they're on, they are the greatest band there is. I would absolutely buy a 94 and 95 show or compilation if it's released. When they're on- well you know the rest.
My first show was in '87, Calaveras County Fairgrounds, so..
you could call me a Touch-head, although my GD-beginnings were from Portland, Oregon's rich taping community and KBOO radio, going back at least a little ways before the Dead's popularity ascention in the late 80's (clinging to my credibility here :) ). I got into the Dead listening to Porchester '70, Winterland '73 (climbed Mt. Hood listening to that one - wow), Cornell (of course), Seattle '74 with an enormous Playin', and a few other classics. There was plenty of Brent in there too - Frost 82, Greek 85... When Brent would play Gimme Some Lovin', the energy went WAYYY up. When Brent died, I just lost interest in the Dead. They were never as good to me. I went to every Jerry Band show at the Warfield, and across Northern California for my fix instead. And if organ and piano tone were an essential part of Jerry's overall sound, you could get that in spades with Melvyn Seals post-Brent. But I think the part that I turned off to in the later Dead iterations was the rhythm section - the plodding drums. no shuffle feel, always on the 1. Clunky dinosaur rock for the stadiums. Overplaying, lumbering. Meanwhile, the Garcia/Grisman and JGB band arrangements didn't get so weighted down, and the selected tones were way more palatable, even the odd mouth rhythms in the Garcia/Grisman band! Less midi, more real instruments is more my taste anyway. I think maybe Jerry's too - he just seemed happier playing in these bands later on. Also, Brent and Jerry had an innate melody linkage in their time together - they made eye contact a lot, and the fans could watch and enjoy that interaction. With Vince, he was a sweet guy, and though Jerry seemed to enjoy playing with him too, it was like starting all over again, with one guy losing many battles (drugs, weight, health, burden), and the other guy a newbie. It was too hard to watch. Still listenin' though.
after Brent
46 of my 50 shows were post Brent. Summer 91 started it. I absolutely loved the Hornsby era. Nothing beats the texture and punch of his grand piano. His accordian could go thanks; but the grand was special.
Of the shows that I attended these stand out as great nights.
Special Hornsby shows? '92 Copps in Hamilton. Shakedown->women smarter->Dark Star is seriously special and Pine Knob 1991 both nights (released in the download series) had some serious energy.
10-1,2,3-1994 I attended. 10-1 as mentioned was incredible. I would put $$ down to get a vault recording of that. But 10-3 was very, very close. Finally a Cassidy in the 2nd set! AGain, would put $$ down for vault release.
But where I found the highest moments with the Vince on keys was MSG 1993.
9-20-1993 has an incredible first set and a second set that included Edie Brickell on vocals for space and Going Down the Road. Of course, 9-22-1993 with David Murray on sax for Estimated -> Dark Star was over the top but I found the rest of that show rather lackluster.
Also, summer 1992 Soldier Field with James Cotton on harmonica was insanely high energy.
This said, quite honestly, most of the recordings I listen to with Vince on keys is deafening to me. I just can't get past the texture of his sound.
I wish his family the best. Tomorrow is a very hard day for them. God speed to them.
Post Brent era Dead
I thought that Vince did an alright job filling Brent's shoes. I was personally not a fan of Vince's songs. Way To Go Home was an alright song, but Samba was not very good imho. Baba O'Riley--->TNK was good. I will buy all the shows that are released if I can afford them. All GD is good GD!! Some shows that stand out to me:06/17/1991 Giants Stadium
09/10/1991 MSG
09/24/1991 Boston Garden
12/31/1991 Oaktown
06/20/1992 RFK
03/24&25/1993 Chappel Hill
08/21&22/1993 Oregon
10/05/1994 Spectrum
post Brent
I have tons of shows from late '90 through '95, tons of great quality sbds in circulation, so it would be hard to please some hardcore deadheads if a real late era release was in store. 10-1-94 is always mentioned as a "maybe" release, but a perfect Vault copy is already in circulation. I would prefer whole runs, as opposed to a compilation cd from 5 different shows, but that's just me. i would most certainly welcome a late era release, but as always, just depends on what it is and if it circulates...
Actually would love to see 10-3-94 or 3-19-95, the latter just for the first Unbroken Chain.
Saw my first show in Syracuse
Saw my first show in Syracuse in '78 (yup, you guessed it). I saw my only west coast show in '95 -- the Mardi Gras show with David Murray. I enjoyed it because the west coast vibe was different than what I was used to (first NY area shows, then midwest). But to be honest, I've probably only listened to the official releases from post '91 once. If I could SEE the GD again, and they were in 1995 form with Jerry G, I would go. But if I can LISTEN to any year, I can't see spending my GD listening time with a '93-'95 show when I can listen to a pristine Europe '72 show, a '69 Fillmore West show, a '73 jazzy show, etc., etc., etc.
I admit that I only watch the VFTV shows in small pieces, but I've seen the GD Movie (I first owned the VHS, then the DVD) perhaps more than any other movie of any kind.
Not to be closed minded, but I guess I know what I like.
High points for me
MSG 90, 4-5-91, 8-16-91 (scarlet>victim>fire!), 9-14-91, 3-20-92, Chapel Hill 93, 3-21-94 (Matilda jam & stella!)
No go
Being less forgiving than Blair, my review of Vince begins and ends with the cheesy sounding keys played by a guy who was never a soloist and was never in a jam band. I guess I'd also add harsh and oddly incongruous-in-tone/texture vocal harmonies.
Needless to say, I was never a fan and never listen to post-Brent performances (rarely, in fact, to anything after the Fall '89). I may have seen 15 or 20 shows in the post-Brent era, including a bunch in Vegas, but it already felt like a nostalgia tour to me at that point -- the crowds were big, it was always fun to meet up with friends from around the country in different places, but I can honestly say that none of the music was memorable (at least I can't remember any of it).
True, Vince was somewhat unfortunate to jump aboard something of a sinking a ship. But the flip side to that, in my opinion, is that was lucky to not have been more of a drag on the band than he might otherwise have been. Imagine the 1993 Dead suddenly playing like the Spring '77 Dead . . . with Vince. THAT would have been tragic.
Phoenix 1990
12/8/90, 12/9/90. It was a perfect road trip from New Mexico down the Gila River. Also Salt Lake City 2/19/95.If a kid was 12 or 14 in 1995 and saw the Grateful Dead even just a single time he was very lucky. And I liked Vince. I liked Pigpen the best of all the keyboard players. And I saw all of them. Each had a gift or color to add to one of the greatest bands in history.
No commercial potential
There were of course good times and at times great music. I can't imagine finding anything past 1990 though that would get me excited to buy and listen to more than once. And it's not on Vince. The band sounded lazy and unrehearsed, unfocused I would be shocked if Rhino/Dave do not already get the low quality of experience post whatever (pick a 1980s year). Focus on 75, 70, any below radar hot thing deep In the vault and I will be pleased. But don't miss the essence. Many heard the new Hartford show and thought it tame, ok so Seastones would have helped there. I think with very late era Dead we don't need or want whole shows. (e.g. I loved that casino space in Vegas with the 2nd set Deal!!). Focus on great music and moments. That's what it was toward the end. No beer sold after drums.
post Brent
My first show like a few others was the final one. I had high hopes of seeing some Fall shows as by this time my Grateful Dead freek flag was flying way high. Man, was I stomping during the Shakedown Street (from waaaaayyyy up there). Alas, it was not to be. I'm still a grateful deadhead thanks to everything that's always been available commercially and otherwise through tape trading. In some ways, there's been no greater time to be a deadhead. I admit, I'm more of a '95ophile, than a '94ophile given a choice between the 2. But, I'm open minded. I'd appreciate someone opening my eyes to more of some good '94 stuff than I already know and like: 3-17, 3-21, 3-30, 4-1, 7-3, 7-13, 10-14, 10-17. Most of the dates I like from '94 are for certain songs or sequences - - It's hit or miss. I just don't think there was a barn burning show I can find from 1994. Same goes for '95 where the highlights for me are 2-21, 3-18, 3-23, 3-26 and 27, 4-7, 5-26 and 7-2. I am of the mind that any release(s) from 94/95 would have to be compilations but there is some good stuff in there.
Highgate 94; Three Rivers 95
Gee, that piece you wrote depressed me just reading it. I think it is a worthy topic worth exploring though. I feel Vince didn't get enough credit for being a member of the band, never mind his playing.
I saw a couple of my 100 shows after 91. I left the scene in 93 after Louisville. For me the magic was gone. However, now listening to shows during those years I can hear very occasional shows that are quite good and a lot of moments here and there with a lot more shows that are flat and lifeless. The Boston garden run in 94 is an example.
Anyway, it always seems whether the show was good or not depended on Jerry though Bob & Phil could occasionally elevate it. Not so much Bill & Micky and not at all Vince. I respect the guy as a musician and didn't know they had that much of a collar on him.
Now I know what I've been thinking about JK's playing in Furthur is true.
Since then...
..I've warmed up to Vince's contributions to the Dead, though it was hard to accept him at first, at the time.
I was of the mindset that up to the point of just before Brent died, the Grateful Dead were at their utmost musical peak of a 25 year career full of peaks. The way Brent pushed Jerry to play his guitar at his career best during '88-'90 was nothing short of amazing, especially when Brent was playing the Hammand B3 with the Leslie cabinets. Something that even Pigpen never fully achieved and Keith never attempted during the bands creative peaks in the '60s and '70s.
Tom Constanten not withstanding, with early electronic keys, Pigpen brought the organ into the Deads sound, Keith brought piano into it and Brent perfected it the use of electric and acoustic piano sounds mixed with synths. Of course Bruce's piano fit right in and the *cough* accordian brought in a different timbre that sometimes worked, sometimes sounded like, um, well not always appropriate to be nice about it.
I agree that limiting Vince to electronic keyboards kind of put limitations on the overall bands sound, though it worked more often than not.
There are plenty of post Brent shows i could get excited about for release.
If I had to pick only two from Fall '90 through Summer '95, one with Bruce/Vince and one with just Vince, today they would be...
an easy pick with Bruce/Vince
9/26/91 Boston Garden
a not-so-easy pick toss-up with Vince
9/13/93 Spectrum or 3/30/94 Omni
There are plenty of other nice post Brent shows, but these three I never tire of listening to.
I'm kind of oversaturated with '72-'78 at the moment so would most eagerly welcome anything but. If the next couple of Dave's Picks are to be from '84-'90 or even a particularly special pick from '91-'94, It would go a long way for me to enthusiastically sign-up for another subscription. While there are still unrepresented or under-represented years to be released, I can live without another '72-'74 or '77 show for now.
If 8/27/72 is on the soon to come horizon, I suppose I have room for one more '72 show in my "official", but thats about it for now.
How about that Alpine Valley 7/18/89 video? Thats the one that should be the next release.
Best Vince Moment
Opening Day, 1993, San Francisco Giants, Candlestick Park.
Jerry, Bob and Vince performed one of the most genuine, heart-felt and inspiring renditions of the National Anthem I've ever heard. Vince brilliantly arranged the harmonies, and the boys knocked it outta the park:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH8ObibNCoo
Made me extra proud to be a Deadhead that day!
No argument against this
There is no better argument for compilations of highlights from a run of shows versus complete shows than for the later period of the Dead. There is some stellar material during the later years that should be released in a compilation format.
Just not the same without Ron, Keith, or Brent
While it's true that most who were there before 1989 would not prefer 1993-1995 over ANYTHING, there were some kind shows in 1991. It wasn't just Vince that was lacking, or Jerry's playing at the end.....even the other ones (!) seemed a little detached for long stretches, for whatever reason. I saw the band less and less ion 92 and 93. I like the Boston Garden shows from 91, MSG from 90...the lack of tight playing during the summer shows from the last few years is pretty obvious, I think. I respect Vince for his effort and the years he gave to making Deadheads happy. Thank you to his family for sharing his beauty with us.
90s rocked
Great article as usual.
On Vince
Vince played great funk (see many great Shakedowns), played beautifully in the jams (think of many great jams out of Terrapin, all kinds of incredible Scarlet -Fires), and smoked (in 94 particularly for some reason) on shoot em up saloon type piano solos (Promised Land, Don't Ease,etc.). His playing was epic on Days Between and other big ballads.
He also did nice job bringing in covers and HC Sunshine.
Any musician would tell you the guy was one hell of a keyboard player.
I thought his singing was atrocious a lot of the time, and decent other times. But nothing more.
He for me ruined almost every single Estimated Prophet.
You had to almost feel sorry for him. There was no way to top Brent and the bottom line was, I don't care what anyone says, it was all about the money the final four years or so. There was that feeling that none of them cared that much enough of the time. Play it safe. Mail it in.
What sucked was without Brent they had no grit, no balls...they needed a junkyard dog in there. That was Brent ...playing like his life was on the very line every night.
Did they make the right decision?
They rushed back on the road in 90 for the money and out of mental laziness. As great as it was ...what might have been had they put the brakes on the entire thing for a year or so? I often wonder.
And yet...I enjoy so much of the 90s through around July of 1994, where in my mind the real final descent begins with Garcia. Spring tour he's hanging in there, it's dicey but still not a big drop off from 93....then bam. Every five minutes in June 94 he's doing something incredible or totally short circuiting. And I love some of those shows overall. His singing!
If he hadn't fell apart it felt like 94 was going to an all time great year. When they were on that year I felt they were reaching one of those "zenith" periods where everything was right in place and going to the next level. Phil's new songs and Samba notwithstanding.
In short I loved the 90s, listen to many shows often, would buy some especially those I attended. You can't beat experience and taste and wisdom. Energy and youth is great for football running backs but for the GD, I felt they for the most part only got more interesting with age. "Not as good" from the standpoint of straight mindblowing long jams but more songs, more set list variety, more sonic textures, more consistency for the most part. More fun. Needed real bad in an increasingly dark world!
I kind of dug the exciting peaks and valleys element. And drums and space ripped!
The scene and the "fans" were the lamest part of the 90s. Once the music got consistently bad, it was real ugly all the way around.
I remember in Eugene 90 I encountered all kinds of smart, good people, one after another. Then in Portland 1995 a field of dust filled with complete douchebags. We were now way outnumbered by total losers.
Actually, Vince was great
It's unfortunate that Vince had to be the last "new guy" and that Jerry had to fall apart during his run. Vince was actually quite good and a very talented guy. Granted, he sometimes sang off key but who in the Dead didn't. I actually though his voice fit in well with the band when he/they were on. He still had a high range but his voice wasn't always as intrusive as Brent's or Donna's in the mix. Listen to those Attics with Brent and then listen to the one's with Vince. May/June '92 have some great shows and there are great shows scattered throughout '93. I actually like the ON shows from this period better than '90-'91. I've been following the Dead since the '70's so it just isn't a case of "that's when I saw them". The band is back to it's groove with Vince having found his way, new songs and a stable line up. 1994 and 1995 are more of a mixed bag but there's great stuff in there too.
As far as Samba, it isn't Hunter's best lyrics but could be a hot jamming song in the right hands. I actually found it a nice change in that it was at least a different sort of song for the band. There they go taking chances again. Zero and Missing Man Formation did massive versions of it. Unfortunately, I think it was brought to Jerry too late in the game and he couldn't get a good fitting on it mostly.
Twice the new guy
One thing that doesn't get mentioned often is that Vince had to find his place in the Grateful Dead twice: when he first came on board, and when Bruce left. It is especially difficult to find your way in a long established band, but to find your role and then suddenly have to do so again in a relatively short period is quite a task.
In retrospect, a lot of Jerry issues were reflexively pinned on Vince at the time.
All that said, I must say that I pretty much never listen to anything post Halloween 91. I loved the big sound of the Vince/Hornsby combo, and I thought it was the right approach to not try to ape Brent's sound. I mourn the death of Brent to this day, but I was also lucky enough to catch some great shows post Brent. My three favorites that I attended were 9/20/90 (best concert I've ever attended by ANYONE), 6/14/91and 9/13/93.
A few great Vince shows...
5-24-92, 5-30, 31-92, 6-12-92, 6-28-92, 3-17-93, 3-24,25-93, 3-27-93, 5-16-93, 5-26, 27-93 (already released), 6-5, 6-93, 6-8, 9-93, 6-11-93, Deer Creek 6-93 among others as I didn't want to make the list too long.
Nothing was sweeter
Nothing was sweeter than watching Jerry and Brent interact together. The headnods and the smiles between them as they would take over a jam. Go back and watch/listen to NFA from 7/4/89.Brent could also be a catalyst for "deep space" 7/29/88 Playing in the band from Laguna Seca....comes to mind.
Jerry always seemed grounded by Brent's playing. If he got lost and needed direction, Mydland was there, while Weir was off in "Bob World" (we all know and love).
Garcia and Hornsby could get the "duet" going during songs. The Jack Straw from 6/16/91 is a great example.
The great thing about Brent and Bruce is that they would engage/challenge Garcia's playing.
Bruce wish you had left that "Squeeze Box" back in VA.
Vince never seemed to get a handle on "deep space" and really playing off Garcia. Maybe being tucked behind a Grand Piano didn't help to start. Not to mention could he have been further away from the rest of the group on stage?
HIs incident on Bobby's tour bus.....was not endearing either.
I will give Vince alot of credit for trying to revive some of the old classics and bring them back to life
As with any era, there a nuggets to be found with each keyboard/piano player. After all, it is about the trip, not the final destination.
Would Phil Be Singing Today?
It was Brent, who got Phillip to sing again.
I love Keep On Growin' always nice to hear, Why Don't We Do it in the Road....or a Drum. Gimme Some Lovin' out of Space.
Who knew Phil would have a repertoire to choose from as the years roll on by.
"Next time you hear someone say (we want Phil) you say we want Brent" Phil 7/2/88
post Brent
I'm one of the advocates for the 10/1/94 Boston Garden show( I emailed David touting the show as a possible Dave's Pick). But there were other shows I saw in the early 90's (all in Boston for me) that were excellant or had some fine moments. I don't remember the year offhand of the absolutely stellar "Standing on the Moon" which figuratively brought the house down-you could hear a pin drop. I thought the Dead were focusing and fine-tuning the Midi stuff during that period and were growing towards a less cluttered, pristine sound with more focused playing-Jerry's physical problems brought a new economical approach to his playing which clicked, for me, when they stopped using Midi as a toy or distraction which I think they had been doing when they were still besotted with the stuff at the beginning of their use of it. The writing was entering a new phase also-I think a new beginning was around the corner, but, alas, was not to be when Jerry passed. The new writing was so strong-remember the clamoring for official release of the new songs which( other than "so Many Roads" box) could not be because of the unfinished state of the material? A new Renaissance-perhaps.
I never had any complaints
I never had any complaints about Vince. He always seemed to me a very tasteful and modest player. Especially compared to late Brent (85-90) which I still find mostly unlistenable. I liked early Brent but never liked his "later" style, which seemed too aggressive and "showy" to me. I've bought nearly all official releases from 85-90 but I'll bet I've tallied up only a few hours of combined listening time with them. A possible exception may turn out to be the 3/27/88 download. I've been giving it some listening and am beginning to warm up to it- (based on Blair's Desert Island recommendation). Oh yeah, I also love the Laguna Seca 88 PITB on So Many Roads. I love any show with Hornsby and will buy any show with him on board. A big box set of a run with Hornsby would be great. For me, most of my favorite Dead shows from 85-95 were all with Hornsby. I love the Cal Expo 93 Road trip and have listened to it more than most 86-90 Dead, (but 3/27/88 is catching up).I like the notion of "latter years" compilations. For me, it was mostly about the jams. I'd buy any "jam-full" compilation from any era, regardless of whose at the keys. I'd buy, and love, any compilation of back-to-back "Bird Song", "Space", PITB, Other one, etc...from any era- eh, preferably every one ever played. I only want complete shows of pre-hiatus Dead.
The last Brent shows I saw were in '89. The only Vince shows I saw were the 95 SLC shows. I thought they were fine shows- Jerry seemed fine, not as bad as I had read and worried about. Everyone else in the band right on. Best parts were Drums-Space, but that was always the case!
Vincable
First off, Blair, my favourite, ifn's I had to choose, era was the period of time, of long ago, when the band was transforming betwixt '69 through '72. When the folk song was being psychedelisized, if you will.But, what I felt about Vince was nothing short of a perfect fit. I think he felt that way also. I didn't know about the restrictions of his instruments, what was THAT all about? Anyway, he could certainly sing better than any other predecessor (EXCEPTING PIG) and brought new visions to the experience. Like you, I dug his choices of tunes.
So, when I last went to see them, Vegas '95, after the show was over, & I was planning to go to Shoreline a little later, which I didn't do & regret, we went walking up high into the grandstands of Sam Boydland, the sun was either setting or was down & it came over me there; it was like a dusk feeling, & I watched the throngs emptying out & was struck by some enveloping calm & etherlike disposition? Stars were blinkering. I didn't know & still don't. It's like Ken Nordine said long before he met The Dead; "That's the way things have been in our town, for as long as anyone cares to remember... By the way... How are things in your town?" HEY! Blair, you should talk with that guy & let us know what stories he has to tell!
post brent
At the time of Brents passing I thought the perfect fit would be Bruce Hornsby for a replacement. When I heard about Vince Welnick I had a hard time figuring how a member of the tubes was going to fit into the band I loved. I mean, I remember seeing the Tubes at the Calderone years before and it was more of a theatric production than a concert about the music. The run at MSG in 1990 was great. 9/20/90 was lovely. Most Bruce and Vince shows were wonderful. After Bruce left I still enjoyed the Grateful Dead but age and other factors were settling into the quality of the shows. I felt the "machine" was moving along without regard of who in the band was good or bad on any particular night. Some nights just felt like they were going through the motions. I don't think that was Vinces' fault. On the flip side I don't think Vince helped the situation either.
Breaking down the Dead eras
I was reading the blog and this one briefly touches on something I like to do: try to break down the years to determine the various eras & periods, sub-eras and subperiods of Grateful Dead. When I was sorting out my CDR collection, I came up with this one:
1. Psychedelic Era 1965-1971 (from very beginning to Pigpen's first departure)
a. Early- 1965-1968 (Summer of Love, Monterey, Free S.F. concerts)
b. Middle- 1968-1970 (Tom Constanten, Woodstock, Fillmore era)
c. Late- 1970-1971 (Post T.C., NRPS, Evening with GD, Five man band)
2. Keith & Donna Era 1971-1979
a. Early- 1971-1972 (Keith joins, Donna Joins, Europe 72, Pigpen's final shows)
b. Middle- 1972-1974 (Post Pigpen up to hiatus)
c. Hiatus- 1974-1976 (only four shows; w/ Mickey Round Records/UA)
d Late- 1976-1979 (post hiatus, w/ Mickey- Cornell, Englishtown, Arista years)
3. Brent Era 1979-1990 (I break this down based on the sound of Brent's electric piano! *Although his '82 piano lasted only one year):
a. Early- 1979-1981 (Brent joins, Fender Rhodes piano)
b. Middle- 1982-1986
c. Late- 1986-1990 (Digital keyboards, Touch of Grey era)
4. Vince Era 1990-1995 (I don't break this one down any further).
I think that Blair Jackson can have a nice blog & discussion on a topic similar to what I have presented, sometime in the future. I find it quite interesting and fun!
vince years
i never got to much into collecting shows from '92 on because of jerry's decline, and also i never liked the sound of vince's keyboards, good playing, just a clownish sound to me. don't know whether i feel better or worse about it having been the band's decision to have him play those sounds. because it just sounds like a terrible idea to deny your keyboardist a piano/organ sound, in favor of pre-programmed synthesized sounds. especially in music that has such a down home feeling for so many.
that being said, i'll have to go check out some folk's Vince-only show recommendations, as my fellow bloggers are always good for that.
without going into rumors or speculation, i have often wondered why Vince was left out of all the post gd incarnations of the band? i had read speculative rumors years ago about a bad scene between him and bobby during ratdog gigs, but i'm chalking those up to the speculation i'm hoping to avoid. does anyone know?
oh, and yeah, RIP VINCE - while it was a long long way for you to go home, i hope the four winds have blown you safely there
Vince...
...was clinically depressed, Alex. There was a suicide attempt on the RatDog tour bus during his brief tenure with that band, and various other episodes that contributed to his not being viewed as a stable and reliable potential band mate when reunion groupings came up, much to Vince's disappointment. Right or wrong is not for us to judge.
Vince's final tour...
The weeks leading up to Vince's suicide, he played a bunch of shows locally up here in the midwest. I was part of the sound crew for one of the shows he played in my hometown and got to meet him and hang out a little. His demeanor seemed like he was doing ok.
He assembled a band for that tour that consisted of various members of notable Dead cover bands. His setlists reflected that of a Dead cover band show that to my ears, was less than mediocre. There were roughly 50 to 75 people in attendance in a small old classic theatre that holds about 400 to 500 people. During a break in the middle of one of the sets, I shouted out a request for "White Punks on Dope", a classic Tubes song. He got a laugh out of it and shrugged off the request because they didn't work up any other material than songs the Grateful Dead played. Of course he did play all of his signature songs with the Dead.
About a week later, he was back in my hometown playing at a tiny dive bar. My partner had to track down the locally based promoter because he stiffed us on our fee for using our system, soundguy and video production. My partner told me that there were about 6 people in attendance at that gig. The promoter ended up stiffing us more than half of out money. I won't name any names, because I don't doubt that this guy may be kinown by a few people here who live close to me geographically.
A couple of weeks later was when the news broke that Vince offed himself. Makes me wonder if the "un-named" promoters shenanigans was a contributing factor to Vince's depression that got the better of him?
Golden Days
I had a chance to interview Vince in 2002, many years after he was no longer involved with official Grateful Dead side trips. He was playing at a local festival and consented to be interviewed for the radio station I volunteer for. The interview and music feature was fun-Vince was wide open, and probably happy a large part of the interview concerned the Tubes and growing up in Arizona. He did tell an amazing story about sound check for his first show with the Dead. He was using Brent's old piano bench, and it just collapsed right out from under him! I stopped going to shows after Brent's death (though hit a JGB & a Bobby show after 1990), so I was excited to see Vince play locally--he had played with the Affordables, the Valentines and the Missing Man Formation post-break-up, and was still jamming obscure Dead tunes and other great covers, much like he did while playin' in the band. The show was great, and Vince even jammed on "I Am the Walrus" with friends of mine on cello and guitar. Y'know, Vince really took Jerry's death hard--he had been in tax trouble before joining the Dead, and was given the opportunity of his life, which went away fairly quickly when Garcia passed away. There were some serious health concerns post-break-up, but Vince carried on with a positive public face in the years leading up to his own passing. Vince's relationship with Bob Bralove was quite intense, involving both sound and songwriting, so I feel it is a bit more positive than the take that they hijacked the keyboard sound. Vince was steeped the style of John Coltrane and McCoy Tyner, and really had the chops of a pro. My feeling is he probably didn't have much else than professional music to fall back on, and when he no longer worked with the Dead family, I'm sure that dismayed him. My love of Vince comes from him being so open and creative, and not particularly from his playing in the Dead. I love the Tubes very well! Here's to Vince "Welmice" Welnick (21-2-51 - 2-6-06). My heart goes out to Lorie and all that loved Vince as a brother. You are missed!
Might as well....
I was never a huge Vince fan, but definitely was upbeat when he joined the band and remained so throughout, despite the tones he used early on. After Jerry passed on I came to listen a little more closely to Vince's playing and came to find some nice stuff there. Also when I saw him play with the Persuasions at Bimbo's in SF I was impressed by how tastefully he played. I went up to him after that gig, blisffully ignorant of his suicide attempt a few years earlier on the Ratdog bus, and said "It's nice to see and hear you play again." He responded with a smile, "It's nice to be seen and heard." This memory became more poignant for me after he took his own life and I became aware of some of the details of his post-Grateful Dead years. I was deeply affected by his suicide. The story I heard of his final moments were grisly and upsetting and I had just experienced the suicide of a coworker. Working in the mental health field and coming from a family in which depression was an issue did not and still does not prepare me for the depths to which people can feel and fall. I wish Vince's soul peace and I hope that his pain will serve all who know his story.
The 91 NYE run with the
The 91 NYE run with the exception of NYE itself was actually fantastic. Vince's first shows in Richfield Fall 90 also stellar.
The best I recommend is 3-9-1993 Rosemont.
Also the end of Summer 92 was good. 6/25/92 through 7/1/92
Really I think it was only 94 and 95 that were really variable and even they still have moments and sequences. Thought 90 through 93 was just as good as ever.
Believe or not the 2nd set at Deer Creek 95 gate crasher night is really pretty good too imho
Flying Monkeys Don't Scare This Cat (nonsense!)
Blair -- you pretty much nail it square -- I appreciate your upbeat & psoitive take and intellectual honest in presenting (I'd say "both" but really "all" basic perspectives on this topic. (I know there are as many perspectives as therea re deadheads -- you gert my pit, though). The one thing I'd add (and yeah, it's critical) -- I didn't so much like Vince's voice -- he yelled at times instead of singing --- almost but not as schrill as Donna at her "yikes" moments -- but in the same vein. But who am I to say -- my even dog bums out when I sing . . . and he's 13 years old and deaf!
BTW -- all the positive stuff you rightly make metion of faroutweighs the negative point I just made -- so yeah, rock on Vince -- hope God as a B-3 for ya in Heaven, and if not, I'm sure Brent and/or Pig will lend you one of theirs.
"banned?"
I have always been critical of the sounds Vince used, and am really curious why he would be forbidden from using a B3 if he wanted to. The tones were only part of the problem though - his melody lines were often uninspired and cliched, far too often simply aping Jerry's guitar lines, and as often as not drowning him out. I enjoyed some of the shows I saw with Vince very much, but I would be lying if I said they in any way compared to the "great" eras, which I will define as 68-69, 70-71, 72, 73-74, and 77. All 5 are quite distinct, and all 5 are consistently marvelous. Of course there are great shows from other eras, but as we got deeper into the 90's things really fell off. If the vault crew focused on my 5 "great eras", and forayed into 78, 79, and the 80's on occasion I would not fault them. My Dicks picks and Road Trips from the 90's get very little play.
The best post Brent show I ever saw was 12/30/90, and Vince did not play a significant role - all the keyboard glory was taken by Bruce.
Vince and the B-3
Bob Bralove told me recently that it was Jerry's decision not to take a B-3 on the road for Vince. When I asked him why, he replied:
I don't know. He never really articulated it. He wanted to move somewhere else with it. It may have been an emotional connection with Brent.
Would I buy a show from 1994 or '95?
10/1/94 Probably yes, I would buy it. 2/21/95 Probably yes, I would buy it. I am very partial to 3/19/95, so I'd probably buy that with conditions, if a matrix recording could be sold, I'd buy it, as this show is the breakout of Unbroken Chain, and the reaction to the song. A two or three disc "best of" compilation would be most welcome, above all else.
hmm...what to say....
First, I'll lend my heart to alexj's prayer for Vince ~ couldn't have been more eloquently voiced if the words WEREN'T lyric appropriations.
To two of Blair's points that struck me ~ first, SO true about Estimated and the "sax"! First time I heard that at a show, I thought it was blasphemous as, a) it seemed to cut the peak of Bob's scatting right off (which tapes later revealed wasn't quite true); b) I always loved Jerry's watery half-wah lead coming in to inaugurate the colorful journey post-Bob-vocal-finale; and c) I just thought it was obnoxious SOUNDING. I actually appreciate it a bit now, it's really not a bad musical idea and being more a jazzer than I was then I can wink back at Vince's Dolphy-ish goose honks. But like some other of Vince's contributions, a bit over the top in execution.
Secondly, that he was banned from the B-3. I had no idea. We constantly derided Vince's "Casio on a stick" as a poor excuse for the real keyboards we'd enjoyed from Brent (organ AND piano). To learn it wasn't his choice is a revelation, and rather sad indeed.
And I think you're right on, Blair, to recognize that Heads initially dug Long Way to Go Home.....but it got waay overplayed.
Too often, I think Vince's high harmony was too high in the mix. And he didn't always seem to have the sensitivity to hear or know when to cool out ~ case in point, Jack-A-Roe from the nevertheless stellar 6-14-91 RFK show. With Bruce already handling piano, he brought in a rather fun fiddle sound which fit the folk song well....and proceeded to just keep wailing it right overtop Jerry's solo and everything else. So, I hate to say it, but sometimes it was "tune Vince out" and everyone's really hot. Not that he wasn't, too, sometimes ~ I remember him single-handedly saving a '93 One More Saturday Night that Jerry was nowhere on ~ but he didn't always seem able to intuit his ideal place in the musical conversation.
I've heard he was instrumental in some of the latter-day breakouts, of which New Speedway Boogie was a serious wish granted for me, so for that I'm eternally grateful. And that song's a great example of latter-day Jerry belting out a classic with gusto. When I heard they'd resurrected it on the West Coast in '92, the first one in Landover (as the sixth song pre-drums!) did NOT disappoint.
Seems obvious they should've taken time off after Brent's death. Though from all accounts (I was away backpacking) they still seemed to be on a roll in Fall '90, and certainly were for summer '91. The aforementioned 6-14-91 is on the short list of favorite shows I saw (Help->Slip->Franklin's->Estimated->Dark Star ~ I mean, c'mon), but of course that's already released as View From the Vault II.
Full-show gems were hard to come by for me after that year. But 3-17-93 Landover is one of them ~ really dug Eternity & Days Between, and Handsome Cabin Boy jam out of space made my night (I was enamored of it from the 9-22-87 Space, but never knew what it was till Shady Grove came out years later). The night before, Jerry had aborted Morning Dew after flubbing the final verse (the only time I ever uttered a Boo at a GD concert), and heading in for 3-17 we felt he owed us. And he totally delivered with a Shakedown opener that left us beaming, and all was forgiven. The whole show was inspired playing.
I'd buy that one, and believe there must be others ~ but honestly, I'd be hesitant on much after '91 without a preview. I've played the Cal Expo Road Trips about once (though Broken Arrow is worth the price), and I didn't see shows in '94 after experiencing something unheard of at the one summer '93 show I attended: a mediocre Bird Song. Didn't think it was possible. Though the boys did conjure a great Playin' in the 2nd set.
Like Blair and others have said, the last few years were usually more about great moments than whole shows. And too many Heads didn't even seem to notice a tepid China-Rider (or the aforementioned Dew even).
My final shows were Portland '95, I psyched myself up for a two-night stand and my song wish was Let It Grow ~ wanted one more for the road. Got it first night, and I'm happy to report, never saw a lame one! But the venue was awful, and I got an ER-caliber sunburn that sidelined me for the 2nd night. Something poked me to pour sunscreen on my head, don long-sleeves, and shoot up I-5 to catch the 2nd set. And it seemed like destiny when they opened it with Shakedown, almost 10 years to the day of my first show ~ Merriweather '85 ~ whose outdoor 2nd set opened with Shakedown.
Would love to say it delivered, but it was pretty brutal. After Jerry didn't make it to the mike in time for the 2nd verse, he took another little jam and recovered nicely (we simply got extra music) ~ which I thought was a good sign. No such luck. After he graciously allowed Vince the first solo in the big jam, I waited for him to jump in and take over. And waited. He never did. Ouch.
Then came the Terrapin (a couple songs later). Following the big "whistle is screamin' TERRAPIN!".....Jerry went off to Mars. He never played the riffs. Just rode a spacey tone to his own haunts while the band played Terrapin (as best they could, without his melody to lead the way). It wasn't even lame, like that Dew had been. It cut much deeper than that ~ it was disturbing. It was wrong. It didn't feel right, or good. And yet.....
To end the show, they conjured a classic, wonderful Sugar Magnolia. The Liberty encore was just a coda, I think of that Sugar Mag as my farewell moment of magic with the Grateful Dead.
For what it's worth, my brother said the RFK shows (his last) were solid, and he was psyched for the Fall tour (that never came).
Sorry for the novella. I'll just also say that it's so tragic they didn't take a break sometime in the early '90's. Jerry so obviously needed it, in retrospect at least.
And the inspired music & magic the others have brought in the ensuing years ~ as the Dead, Ratdog, BK3, Global Drum, Further ~ is a marvel, and a precious gift. I try not to take it for granted, but sometimes I still do.
Smiles to Brent, Jerry, and Vince.
Rust never slept
A very late era release, even a lot of Brent band, as part of the subscription series would be a bomb, please consider common sense (WWDD?) above all.
Antonjo...
That was a nice detailed articulation of the late period malaise so many of us witnessed. I wasn't at any of those shows but every wrong turn and disappointment you mentioned sounded scarily familiar, down to the abandoned "Dew," which I saw at some point, as I recall. I didn't boo, but I'm pretty sure I thought, "WTF?"
As for WWDD, danc, he showed with his choices from the '90 MSG and '91 Boston runs he didn't have a clue about late-period Dead (or much after '80, for that matter). Loved him dearly, but he was not the guy to be delivering the later Dead stuff to us... IMHO, of course...
MANY GOOD SHOWS POST
MANY GOOD SHOWS POST BRENT....THOUGH I PREFER THE 72 -74 ERA WHO DOESNT....10-1-94....7-13-..94 HIGHGATE...6-17-91 GIANTS...9-22-93 MSG...ALL GRATE SHOWS....EVERY ERA/YEARS HAD ITS MOMENTS OF MIND BLOWINGNESS
many good shows post
many good shows post brent....91 summer tour ..fantastic..highgate 94...msg 10/17/94 scarlet >fire ...fk...killer
Past Is Prologue
I hardly saw the Grateful Dead in the Vince era, although the reasons were almost entirely work related. I heard plenty of grumbling from people who went to shows, however.
I first started seeing the Dead back in the early 70s--my first show was at Winterland December 12, 1972--and they sounded great to me. What I didn't grasp was why all these old hippies (probably about 29 years old, but you know what I mean) complained that Keith had "ruined the band." in the 80s, a lot of old hippies--all about 39 years old--gave some grudging respect to Brent, but looked back fondly on the Keith and Donna era, which according to them was the Dead at their finest.
Were the 29 year old anti-Keiths the same as the 39 year old anti-Brents, or the 49 year old anti-Vince's? No, I don't think so. But I didn't find it to be a coincidence, either.