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Brother Johnman, I relate to your post. I struggle with the same issues. I think the self love that Jesus implies in his words is the exact opposite of self centeredness. When I love myself the most is when I feel most connected with the other, so that the two are one as referenced in Cosmicbadger's post. As far as feeling good when we do something for others I think that it may often simply be a reinforcement that that is what we should be doing. As Joseph Campbell said "follow your bliss". There is a danger that we may become overly proud of all the "wonderful" things we do for others, but we just need to know ourselves well enough not to let this take control of us. I've obviously never met you in person, but from reading your posts you seem to me to be a genuinely loving person who is not operating on false pride. In my own experience I've often asked the question if taking care of myself is being self centered. I've not found an easy answer to that one. I feel we have a responsibilty to not give in to selffishness, but as I said in my earlier post I think we need to nurture ourselves so that we can be of service to others, as Jesus did. The church may tend to encourage a martyr complex in many of us. I don't think Jesus intended for most of us to be martyrs! I just try to prayerfully sort out the negative messages I've been given regarding my own worthlessness from the inner voice that is urging me on to be of service to others. I gather from your previous post that you are already practicing this form of self examination. Regarding spreading the good news, I have come to the conclusion that if we endeavor to follow the example of Jesus' life we will have more than enough to keep us busy and being truly committed to this may be the best way to tell others. Jesus did most of his preaching to those in power who were abusing their office. He seemed to communicate with everyone else simply by listening to and loving them. Blessings to you my friend.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/********************************** It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

now my head REALLY hurts....

"At root, there is simply no way of separating self from other, self-love from other-love. All knowledge of self is knowledge of other, and all knowledge of other knowledge of self. I begin to see that self and other, the familiar and the strange, the internal and the external, the predictable and the unpredictable imply each other. One is seek and the other is hide, and the more I become aware of their implying each other, the more I feel them to be one with each other. I become curiously affectionate and intimate with all that seemed alien. In the features of everything foreign, threatening, terrifying, incomprehensible, and remote I begin to recognize myself. Yet this is a "myself" which I seem to be remembering from long, long ago—not at all my empirical ego of yesterday, not my specious personality" Alan Watts The Joyous Cosmology: adventures int he chemistry of consciousness Read the whole thing on www.erowid.org/library/books_online/joyous_cosmology.pdf

while i agree with what you say about loving yourself, i have always had a problem doing that. i always end up feeling selfish and self centered. i do know i feel happiest when I've made someone else happy, but do i do it to make someone else happy or to please myself? i also tend to have a problem spreading the words of Christ cuz it turns so many people off...and i don't wish to offend anyone.....gotta keep trying tho...as i have said here before...it's how the word is spread that torques most people. i pray long and often (sometimes people hear me and seeing my longhair, tattoos and beard makes them go .."whoa")

The quote you refer to is part of what is known by some as the summary of the law. The full quote from Jesus is "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. The second is like unto it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets". Many, including myself, feel that this is the essence of the teachings of Jesus. We often forget that Jesus was an observant Jew who was most likely trying to reform Judaism, not start a new religion. He appeared to be combating the legalism that was prevelant in much of Judaism at the time. The commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" would seem to imply that first you must love yourself. I have struggled with depression at times in my own life. My father, who was an ordained minister, committed suicide. I can tell you that when you are severly depressed you do not love yourself. Unless you get the proper help to deal with your depression you will have no energy to love others. It seems clear to me that this commandment is not telling us to treat others as ourselves when we do not love ourselves. Sadly many churches do not convey the idea that we should love ourselves when they spend all their time telling us what horrible sinners we are. This is a legitimate criticism of the church by many. I believe that Jesus would be just as critical of this brand of Christianity as he was of the Pharisees of his own time. Jesus clearly took time to nurture himself, often withdrawing from the disciples to recharge mentally, spiritually and physically. He seemed to feel that he had to love himself in order to be of service to others. My experience of the Grateful Dead was instrumental in helping me to learn how to love myself. Check out the lyrics to "Eyes of the World". Peace to all and happy Mothers Day to all you moms. You are so important in helping your children realize that they are "the eyes of the world".

i hear alot of christians say to love thy neighbor as thy self....but what if you suffer from depression and are suicidal does that mean you should kill your neighbor also.?..this question has been in my head for a loooong time.

Thanks for the kind and encouraging words. Your posts along with all the others in this forum have certainly helped me on my journey. Hopefully we will all continue to support and challenge each other along the way. "If I knew the way I would take you home".Peace

Please continue to discuss! Excellent post! If we could all write as clearly and thoughtfully as you did-oh MY!********************************** It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

It seems to me that the proper goal of both science and religion should be truth, as others in this forum have suggested. I see religion and science as ultimately seeking the same thing, but coming from different perspectives. For a scientist, the answer "God did it" is insufficient because the aim of science is to find out what processes are involved. How did it happen? Or, for the religious scientist (and there are actually many), how did God do it? As a person of faith, science can produce no evidence that could make me not believe that God exists. However, scientific fact has indeed challenged my particular preconceptions about God and therefore has expanded my understanding of God (as has being exposed to the Grateful Dead experience). At this point in time I believe that God is the ultimate creator of the universe. The Big Bang theory says that a ball of hydrogen exploded to start the universe. The hydrogen had to come from somewhere. Science will seek to explain this, as it should. The answer will only expand my understanding of truth, which, according to Gandhi, is God. When the Grateful Dead started a concert, they had some basic ideas of what was going to happen, but could not predict what the final result would be. I'm open to the possibility that God may create in the same way. Those of you with different ideas, please continue the discussion. If we all continue the discussion with an open mind and respect for each other we can only increase our understanding of truth.