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thanx hal...........i was just gonna say i feel like a heel cuz it sounds like i don't appreciate everyone's concern, when i really do, from the bottom of my twisted little heart! it really is a "break from whoever you are". now enuf about johnman, there are more important things that belong in this forum...............much o's garcia's

dude, 1. please don't feel like a 'heel' man, (since we deadheads don't wear no shoes anyways) 2. this show (life) is festival seating, please move around and go and be where you are comfortable. 3. come and go, here, as you please. even if you lose your ticket stub, don't mater, no hassle, man. you are always welcome back in here. 4. .................................................... (fill in that blank) 5. I cant think of nothng more important than talking about/with johnman-- you are our brother, dude. johnman, we all been down and out, over and out, up and down in this crazy thing of life. just know that you can: Reach out your hand if your cup be empty Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of man The 'fountain' is our gift of life, the precious water that cleans our souls, that grows our food, feeds our trees and plants, the fountain that washes the tears away from our eyes... love and peace.

I have read your posts about how you are doin and I just did`nt know what to say at the time ,, I too have been in a deep depresion latley ,, work is slow medical bills pilling up , ect .. but anyway ,,I have been talking to some people over seas and they are also going through some really bad times ,, so hey brother you are not alone on this rocky road of life and it is comforting to know that I am not alone either .. Hope the best for you !! Take care brother !! Thank you for being here ... Peace .. Stu ...

We have good times, we share bad times. We listen to, care about, and respect each other. We are not alone, any of us here. Thank goodness for that!!! Does seem to be a handful suffering plenty right now, in some way or another. Peace and caring for all who need it. Was thinking this may be the wrong thread for going on like this, but will not delete. Is something spiritual and supportive about the friendships here, so perhaps fits after all. ********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens

when things in the 'matter' world seem shaky,then its a good time to lean on the ideas of the spiritual world, which never shake. sometimes the material world seems solid, other times it seems uncertain, and undependable. when the matter world shakes, then wherever we are leaning on the material world, we will feel shaky too. but, if, at these times we learn to lean on the spiritual qualities, we will find we can be strong for ourselves, and others, through these shaky times. the qualities of spirit; love, generosity, honesty, humility, concern for others, these qualities never shake or crumble, and are sure refuges in shaky times. so, bringing our sense of shakiness to this thread seems appropriate to me. James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (there, see, back on topic-gotta go get my chocohazelnut waffles out of the iron)

and.........amen!

I believe in the grateful philosophy. this is my religion. it is rather dis-organized, but it works for me. sharing the woes, sharing the joys, giving a miracle ticket, giving a ride to a head with his thumb out. ALWAYS finding just one more seat on the bus so that EVERYONE can get to the next show. syphon my gas if you need it, eat my food if you are hungry, drink my water if you are thirsty. borrow my tape and copy it. (just don't mix up the boxes, please) getting a warm hug from an old tour friend, getting a copy of that long lost tape... caring and sharing. being nice to everybody. {(until its time not to be nice) thanks marye via Patrick Swayze} ( -: everyone here has a home. everyone here has a place to kick back and relax and get warm. no one sees tears in the rain, but that don't mean there ain't no tears. come in out of the rain. nothing to hide here. at the moment, I am particularly bummed out about certain health issues and I am tired of wearing frigging sweatpants (some might remember this) but writing the above makes my heart swell with pride and joy that I am both a deadhead and here. is this religion? don't matter, "this must be heaven" love and peace.

big freakin' hugs to everybody!!!

u guys r making me cry!peace and CC , u r like gandolf!!

Yes what johnman said !! CC , I like that,, you are kind ,, I beleive everything you just wrote .. Being kind should be part of any religion ,, it`s the kind spirit that we all have , some just hide it away, but to really show it and practice it is the key .. If i see a car on the side of the road I stop , hey you folks need help ? Or the older folks who just don`t have $$ , I`ll still repair their car ,, aw, pay me when you can .. Good karma , helping people , religion , call it what you will .. I beleive all this is somewhat spiritual .. we all have a common thread that binds us .. we all just give it diferent names .. Thank you everyone !! Hope you all have a sunny peaceful day !! Stu ....

I am a christian who combines buddhism and Taoism into my life. Works for me! lol For me, there has never been a event like a Dead show that has taken my breath away with the miracles of love and light. Music is a gift from God and I certainly appreciate that gift! It lifts the soul to many heights and can take a person many places in her/his soul. I got on the Bus in 86 and never looked back and my experiences are what have molded me into the being that I am today. And I wouldn't trade who I am today for anything. I am going to be celebrating 10 yrs sober, yes I'm a wharf rat, at the Oct 13 show, thats my sobriety date! What a way to celebrate. And its only been thru the energies of the universe and a God that I have been introduced to thru my experiences, that has kept me clean and most of all FREE! Thats all I was looking for, was FREEDOM and I have finallly found it. Its an inside job. I tried the wandering for MANY years, and there was something to be learned there as there is in any adventure. But when I got clean and started to apply some of the things that I learned while "high", and started to go thru some doors that psychedelics had opened, was when I found freedom. Doing the 2003 east coast Dead tour by myself(!) selling dyes and just having the time of my life, showed me that there was so much more to the music and life then I had ever discovered. I had so many miracles that happened that really opened my heart and soul to a higher energy. Anyway, I've gone on way too long. Good topic and peace to all of you today. Hope to see you at the show!

Your words are so sweet and make me feel grate!! :)

and thanks to all you kind folks. shivers up and down my spine, chicken flesh, goose (or gander) bumps reading your kind, thoughtful replies. makes my heart warm. makes me smile smile smile!! ( -: ( -: ( -: love and peace.

I like your comments, CC-that's a great philosophy...think I'll copy & paste it to send it to my brother, who is not being so "kind" right now. Maybe it'll put some sense in his head........Sunday night-back to Naked Praying.....! YeeHawxoxo peace & love Gypsy Cowgirl

I just love the common theme of spirituality among us Deadheads. There certainly was something going on "strange" in those arenas and other venues that just cannot be explained! Trying to tell someone what a Dead show was like is like trying to tell someone how an orgasm feels! lol Ya just got to be there. My wife is going to her first show and she really hadn't gotten it yet. I've tried to explain "how" to listen to the boys and it alludes me. I hope that she "gets it" but time will tell. She went to 2 Phil shows, which both were great, several years ago and the real space stuff just went over her head. Ya know, there IS a certain way to listen to the Dead and once ya get it, ya can't get it out of your head. Its very akin to listening to jazz. It can be hard at first but once the light turns on, its the easiest thing to do in the world. This make any sense? I hope that she is not greeted with some lot head who NEVER makes the show and is just trying to sell her some heroin. lol I hope she meets the wonderful folks that I've had the privelage to meet over the past 22 yrs since I"ve been on the bus. I am sure that the energy will be overwhelming at the BJC this Monday. I can't wait for her to feel that. Spirituality will allows be linked to the Dead for me. Being at a show and feeling what i felt and experiencing what we all did, certainly turns heads! So grateful to be one of the grateful!

grateful philosophy expressed in 5 seconds:

the man has spoken!!

Tiger Lily & GDTUD-where are you 2 ??? Haven't heard from ya in awhile.....are you praying naked, or am I getting too personal??? don't mean to be.......xoxox Gypsy Cowgirl

aren't too personal!!!!!!! You guessed right-was quite busy spreading the word about the benefits of praying naked is all. C.C. have meant to respond to you 8 million times-have been "researching" and think you are on to something. ********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens

ok. so, lilly, that means you got 7,999,999 more responses to go? all response must be in the form of a question. (oops, that is the game show host in me peeking out from behind curtain number three.) peace.

I read this today...the true and living God is not hiding, or hard to find, He says we will find Him if we seek Him. I'm glad for this. There's enough other complicated things going on in this world and I don't need to have a difficult time finding my way to God. This is what He says... 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart". (Jeremiah 29:13) May God's grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure, Ben Jesus Loves You The Best! greateststoryevertold.org

I may as well tell y'all about my beliefs... Soooo....I am an atheist. In that regard, I do not believe in god, per se. I don't believe in a one, supreme being that looks over us, etc...I believe religion is man-made and was absolutely necessary in the times in which it was created, in order to avoid mass hysteria (which probably went on long before there was ever recorded religion). I won't get into the "why"s as to why I don't believe...it's just the conclusion I've come to after many years. Read "The God Delusion" if you want to understand my point of view on that any further. What I DO believe in is ENERGY. I believe we are all made up of energy that is kinetic. Once in motion, it never ceases. SO, once we pass, our energy (call it a soul or spirit, if you want to) is still moving about the earth. I believe that every, single person we each come in contact with (no matter how small or large the amount of contact - from 'just passing by' to serious relationships), we pass along that respective amount of energy to that person. They carry it with them forever and pass it on to others, and so on, and so on. SO, by my belief, the more positive energy one puts out to the world, the more positive things will happen in the world. By contrast, the same would apply with negative energy. When positive or negative energy is placed in front of you, whether in the form of a TV broadcast, email, postcard, rainbow, etc...(you can apply to ANYTHING - it's all in how it's perceived), that positive or negative energy is absorbed by each of us and we all carry it around wherever we go - and pass it along, and so on, and so on.... Thus, I do not believe in a heaven or hell, but I believe that once we pass, our energy - both positive and negative - stays out there for everyone we've been in contact with. This energy is carried on in the memories of others, as well as anything we've ever influenced in our lives (hence the little to a lot of contact with others). I was raised Jewish. The Old Testament really never did it for me and the New Testament took it to a whole different level of bs for me (no offense to others, I say "for me" on purpose there). I believe many of the 'main characters' in the bible truly existed and some were truly wonderful people. But there are just waaaaay too many juxtapositions in there that make it all nonsensical in the end (for me). By the way, I'm also a STUDENT of the Bible. I had to study it in my formative years (grades 6, 7 & 8) and have read it in its entirety. I've also read most of it in my early 20s. Anyway, that's it - in a nutshell. I certainly don't begrudge ANYONE of their beliefs. To me, it's all about the positive energy!!! If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a PM. I will leave you with a bit of humor. George Carlin on religion (paraphrasing, as I don't remember word for word, but this is pretty close...and I do not say this to offend anyone - just for a touch of humor - if we cannot laugh at ourselves, what's the point?!) : There's a lot of bullshit in this world. Car Salesmen (I'm actually a car sales manager, hehe!), Lawyers...they're all full of bullshit. Wantin' to sell you bullshit. But the greatest bullshit story of all time has to be religion. Here's what they want you to believe: There's this invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do. If you do not obey his laws which he has set forth, you will spend eternity in fire, brimstone, pain & anguish. But he loves you. And he needs your money. Apparently the omnipotent one...not so good with cash. Peace, ~ Pappy www.theCAUSEjams.com "Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - Robert Hunter

Just read Blair Jackson's biography of JG and it rekindled my fire for the music and lyrics of the group. I enjoyed their music 30 years ago, went to only one concert(12/31/79), due to my sweet girlfriend's LOVE of the Dead (SF born and raised) and have been re-enjoying their music with my 17 y.o. son. I enjoyed finding streams of old Celtic thought in the lyrics of Hunter and Garcia. I don't know if it was intended or just sprang from pool of consciousness that is still with us. As the son of a minister, I learned that many songs sung in church came from folk music of the time, often 200 years ago, and thus intend to bring their music to a new audience. Walk your path, enjoy your relations, share love with others.

pappy, would you agree that saying "religion is the greatest bullshit story" is a force of negative energy? keep in mind, some folks here take great comfort in their religoius beliefs, (organized or dis-organized) and using such harsh language about it is kind of a bummer to read. up until you said that, I wasn't bummed out by what you said, but that bit is a tad too harsh and hurtful, and certainly negative, in my humble opinion. believe it if you need it, and why knock it, even if you've tried it? if you like, please go back and read through this entire thread, we have had some "issues" with folks who kind of go over the top in general terms of acceptable civility in expressing what they believe or not believe. marye, in her mod mode, tought me a new vocabulary word a while back, it was 'polemic' share and care. sharing and caring. caring and sharing. care and share. keeping this scene "safe and warm" for everyone is a goal in my book, and a source of positive energy if you will. love and peace.

"would you agree that saying "religion is the greatest bullshit story" is a force of negative energy?" Except it's positive energy for some, I would hope. Only because there's a whole lots of people who do believe in their religion. & it should be everyone's right to believe in whatever they want to. I just didn' t like the "forced" on you situations. I have relatives that are Catholics, Jewish, Protestants & Atheists-the whole "mishbuka" (meaning in Yiddish-mixed batch or mixed family, if I've got that one right) & to think, today on walking Charlie, the dog, a guy in the park asked me if I had religious beliefs....didn't have time to get into it.... So, what am I, I have often asked myself? Just plain ole American Gypsy Cowgirl.......xoxox Peace & Love-NOW there's a religion I believe in! ( & praying naked)

Gypsy & CC - I guess you 2 didn't really read my post. 'Cause right before I quoted George Carlin (who said "religion is the greatest bs story of all-time") I specifically said THESE words: I will leave you with a bit of humor. George Carlin on religion (paraphrasing, as I don't remember word for word, but this is pretty close...and I do not say this to offend anyone - just for a touch of humor - if we cannot laugh at ourselves, what's the point?!) : So PLEASE don't think I'm putting ANYONE down for beliving what they believe. I do not. I'm quite fine with anyone's beliefs, so long as they are not hurting anyone. I'm not asking for an apology, but you both completely misunderstood what I was saying. Have a nice day! :) ~ Pappy www.theCAUSEjams.coom "Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - Robert Hunter

but don't you think that 7,999,998 is a boatload of questions? Even for me to come up with? (7,999,997) ********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens

i REALLY LIKE THE OPENESS OF THE WHARFRATS A/A HAS BEEN TO BIBLE THUMPING LATELY NOT DIGGING ON IT AT ALL :{

pappy, if i mis-understood something, I will apologize. did Carlin say 'religion is a bullshit story' or words to that effect? was that last paragraph Carlin's words, not yours?? I thought the Carlin line ended with 'if we can not laugh at ourselves, what's the point' maybe I got confused, if it is YOU who is the car salesman manager, and not Carlin. then I made a mistake, and sorry about that. please use "quotes" in the future so we might know who is talking. if the religion is bullshit comment was yours, and if that was a joke, I don't get the joke. it was that comment alone that I took issue with, like I said in my previous post. anyways, and not to beat a dead horse, when you have a few hours to kill, go back to read through this whole thread, then you will understand better the context that I'm coming from. naturally, many folks who read and post in THIS area, are sensitive to religion bashing (not saying that is what you did if that was what Carlin said) hence, I chided you a bit. no feelings hurt on my side, and if I fucked up, sorry about that. peace. and, lilly, I am patiently waiting for the next 7,999,997 questions, and no it ain't a boat load. it is a shit load. to avoid further mis-understanding, I ain't saying your question is a load of shit, but just that it is a shit load of questions. yuk yuk yuk ( -;

Yes the paragraph was from Carlin. I didn't use quotes because, as I stated, I was paraphrasing. If I had been quoting, I'd have used quotes. I put a very specific line before that paragraph that read (and this is now the 3rd time I'm putting this up here) : I will leave you with a bit of humor. George Carlin on religion (paraphrasing, as I don't remember word for word, but this is pretty close...and I do not say this to offend anyone - just for a touch of humor - if we cannot laugh at ourselves, what's the point?!) : SO, not to sound like a dick - but it basically says "here's a bunch of words from George Carlin. They're not meant to offend anyone. Hope you can laugh at it, as I have....because I laugh at jokes, even when aimed at me, because if you can't laugh at yourself, you have a problem. THEN the quote continues (and I won't re-post what apparently annoyed people) to say that the story religion asks you to believe is a tad far-fetched. Now, someone who is religious AND has a sense of humor would even find humor in that and may reply, "Yes it does sound like a crazy story, but I find the faith my personal test of strength." Someone who is not religious but not out to offend anyone might say, "Yeah! That's what I'm talkin' about! But I certainly respect others for believing what they will," as I said. Very plainly. I will try not to speak so lofty next time. Personally, I don't think I did - you all sound like really intelligent people here. I just think it's easy to skim and soak up only the juicy stuff, rather than take everything in context. I'll shut up now. I think I'm pissing people off. ~ Pappy www.theCAUSEjams.com "Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - Robert Hunter

Thanks, tphokie1, for: "I also believe that whether or not we believe in God is not important to God. The important thing is that we are growing as human beings and being kind to each other along the way. I do know that I have experienced what I call God numerous times at Dead shows and while listening to their recorded music." As a life-long student of comparative religion (thank you, Joseph Campbell), I believe that all religions' source texts say the same thing if (and it's a big if) you read them metaphorically, rather than literally. I want to share a couple of quotes from Reynold Nicholson's book, The Mystics of Islam. "Pythagoras and Plato are responsible for another theory, to which the Sufi poets frequently allude, that music awakens in the soul a memory of celestial harmonies heard in a state of pre-existance, before the soul was separated from God. Thus Jalaluddin Rumi: The song of the spheres in their revolutions Is what men sing with lute and voice. As we are all members of Adam, We have heard these melodies in paradise. Though earth and water have cast their veil upon us, We retain faint reminiscences of these heavenly songs; But while we are thus shrouded by gross earthly veils, How can the tones of the dancing spheres reach us?" My answer? Listen to the Dead! They are, after all, Jehovah's Favorite Choir. From the same book, attributed to Dhu 'l-Nun the Egyptian, "Music is a divine influence which stirs the heart to seek God: those who listen to it spiritually attain unto God..." and "When the heart throbs and rapture grows intense, and the agitation of ecstacy is manifested and conventional forms are gone, this is not dancing nor bodily indulgence, but a dissolution of the soul."

yes, I did read your post & love how you put the quote from George Carlin. He hit it really on the nail! xoxo Gypsy Cowgirl

pappy oh pappy no need to shut up, unless that is what you want to do, man. I certainly am not getting, nor never was, pissed off a bout this. I failed reading comprehension, and I dont know the rules of paraphrasing v. quoting. just like I said, I made a mistake, seeing the car sales man thing in the middle of the Carlin gag, not recognizing that bit, thinking it was you. like I said, soorry I fucked up. intelligent, me? nah. I'm way below the fold, and lots of creases in that fold to boot. others here, intelligent, you betcha. me? my lips get tired from reading too much. maybe I need to see that intro to your post just one more time so I can really get it. ( -: peace.

Nice post Brick in Oz. You got it. I can dance to this kind of spirituality. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake

hey pappy, i'm wondering about how you deal withor explain intelligence in your belief system. i think i followed your theory pretty well, but if you were a physicist, i'd be asking how you explained gravity. since you have espoused this particular belief system, i have always wondered how this system explains the source and motion of intelligence and ideas. do you believe this energy to be intelligent? does your belief deal with the possible source or origin of this so-called 'energy'? as one of infinite number of belief systems, this one has its merits, but, ultimately, i prefer the suspension of all belief systems as the way to experience reality, would you agree? sincerely, free idea ---'never prank a truster'----

Free Idea -I LOVE that post and the question is wonderfully thought-provoking!!! I love this kinda conversation...okay, here's my response: I would not say that the energy I speak of is necessarily "intelligent" per se. I believe it all evolved from a 'big bang.' I truly think evolution is the root of it all, so I'm on board w/ Darwinism. You probably detect a smidgen of Buddhism in there, too. BUT, I believe that there are people who are WAY more 'in tune' to the energy that flows all around and can use it in amazing ways. I believe there are people that are using it in amazing ways without barely even trying - they're just born like that (i.e., Alex Smith - although I believe he works every day at getting more and more in tune with it). As far as the 'origin' of intelligence & ideas, well that's simply evolution, my friend! At it's finest. We ARE the most evolved species on this planet (according to our measurements and definitions of 'evolved', I guess!), so free will, free ideas(!) and the like are coming from our wonderfully evolved brains, emotions and minds. The suspension of all belief systems to experience reality - DIG IT. That's basically like clearing your mind of all thoughts and just 'being'. I wish I could do that on a constant basis. I am not that 'evolved' yet, I guess! ;) Unfortunately, I fall prey too easily to the things that surround me....the job, the bills, etc. I love when I can just BE - especially with my wife & kids... Thanks for that - first thing in the morning for me, too!!! :) ~ Pappy www.theCAUSEjams.com "Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - Robert Hunter

Ive spent a lot of time trying to find a religion that suited me and what seemed right to me. But I dont think anything has felt as right or as spiritual as this kick ass band has made my life. Im fine with people going to church or mosques or whatever but Im happy to just sit in a comfy chair and listen to the dead.So thanks a bunch Grateful Dead

t.g.s. "Sitting in a comfy chair listening to the dead" sounds like a peaceful religion indeed. Right up there with Gypsy and her converts' praying style. Hey Cowgirl-how bout adding that too?********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens

sounds good to me, I'll add it into our "new found" religion.........xoxoxo Gypsy Cowgirl

ps-like I said from the start (I think on this forum) my old friend I worked w/ @ Winterland always said "Sunday night with the Grateful Dead is a religious experience" seemed it always was, too- the walls sweated, it got so hot in there.........xxooxoxo Gypsy Cowgirl

hopin' ta get some prayers from folks here.......got a job interview tomorrow and need all the help i can get!!!! , bless you all...........by whatever deity you prefer, christ has been wathchin' ove ME anyways....thank you all for whatever time you can spare!!

good luck, johnman! and may Allah, Buddha, God, Jehova, Jesus, Vishnu, et al bless you and grant our prayers on your job hunt. (in alphabetical order) and while we are at it, may the spirit (or energy, if you will for those lofty erudite, thinkers out there in TV land) of George Carlin also bless you! peace.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Johnman, good luck! liking your post CC-you always do good! TL & GDTUD-try the "lotus position" of yoga while naked praying-may be more comfortable than the chair & keep the music turned up LOUD.......xoxox Gypsy Cowgirl @ mom's house now-think I may post a pix of her.......

I prayed for you this morning johnman. "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28) May God's grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure, Ben Jesus Loves You The Best! greateststoryevertold.org

1. Where did we come from?2. Why are we here? 3. How do we live while we're here? 4. Where are we going when we die? Ben Jesus Loves You The Best! greateststoryevertold.org

1. Homo Sapiens evolved from other mammalian proto-hominids in central Africa. 2. Evolution is a constant competition for survival of species. Currently we're at the top of the heap. Hasn't always been that way, and may not continue to be that way. 3. By extracting raw materials for cellular regeneration by ingesting other matter. 4. To become raw materials for other species. Anyway, those are my answers. Others answers are very likely to be different. Doesn't make me right and them wrong, or me wrong and them right. Just different. My answers work for me, others' answers work for them. And that's all they have to. Conversation is always more interesting than recitation, so speak your mind and not someone else's.

Hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head. Other than #4, where I think that is what happens to our physical bodies, ourselves - our energy (as described in my previous, insanely long-winded post) stays in motion around the world...of course, in my humble opinion. JOHNMAN - my thoughts are with you, bro - sending you all the positive vibes I can muster!!! ~ Pappy www.theCAUSEjams.com "Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - Robert Hunter

1. Where did we come from?2. Why are we here? 3. How do we live while we're here? 4. Where are we going when we die? definitions (mine): spiritual= immortal infinite man material= mortal finite human Love=Life=Intelligence 1.a)to the spiritual sense, we are idea, expressed by Intelligence. --b)to the material senses, we came from material elements, and will return to material elements. 2.a) to the spiritual sense, we are here because Intelligence naturally expresses itself as idea. --b) to the material senses, we are here cause mom and dad did the dna tango. 3.a) to the spiritual sense, we live by the light of Intelligence. --b) to the material senses, we live by "extracting raw materials for cellular regeneration by ingesting other matter."-Mr. Pid 4.a) to the spiritual sense, we are eternal, we are not born nor do we die. --b) to the material senses, we go back to material elements. the spiritual man lives forever. the material human seems to live for about 100 years max. my return question: Is Love felt through the spiritual or the material senses? this is just -my- response, not meant to counteract or contend with anyone elses good ideas, spiritual or material. ---'never prank a truster'----