Forums
suggested by cosmicbadger, who says:
Once again the debate is raging about whole shows vs compilations.
In the latest Rhino era (since this revamped site was launched). I make the score so far this Total 9 Whole shows: RT2.2 (2/14/68); 3 From the Vault (2/19/71); Winterland Box Set (11/9/73/11/10/73;11/11/73); Cow Palace (12/31/76); To Terrapin (5/28/77); Road Trips Whole Show Download (11/5/79); Road Trips Whole Show Download (11/6/79) Total 7 Compilations: RT1.1 (Fall’79); RT1.2 (Oct 77); RT1.3 (Summer 71); RT1.4 (Oct 78); RT2.1 (Sept 90); RT2.3 (June 74); Rockin’ the Cradle (Sept 78) So its a more or less even balance now, with whole shows slightly favoured (mainly because of the 73 set)
So how about a referendum on future policy. Please post your preference from the following list
A. Whole shows only
B. Mostly whole shows with a few compilations
C. About even balance of compilations and whole shows <
B with an *
I believe that whole shows is generally the way to go, and what I prefer. I also understand that my preferences are not necessarily appropriate for anyone else but me. And I do understand an artist's desire to edit and present what they consider to be their work worthy of greater dissemination. And that some people would prefer to only listen to the "best" performances, whatever that means.
The reason for the asterisk is that when shows which up until their "commercial release" were available in entirety (or at least as much of them as had been actually recorded) but are then culled from for compilation releases, we lose access to all of the material that doesn't get used for the compilation release. This can be very annoying for those of us who would rather make up our own minds about what the "best performances" from any given show are. And it just kinda sucks to have to lose access to something that we previously had.
Offering full shows (at a higher price) as downloads only for those shows which have been excerpted from to produce compilations is one creative (not to mention revenue-producing) solution which has been suggested by others.
Another (admittedly expense-producing) solution would be for Rhino to host and make available for streaming those portions of shows used for compilations that are not included in the "commercial release."
A third (possibly less expense-producing) solution would be to work with the developers at archive.org et al to provide for track-by-track suppression so that only those tracks which actually ARE "commercially released" become unavailable, instead of just slapping the padlock on the whole show.
Conversation is always more interesting than recitation, so speak your mind and not someone else's.
well said mr.pid
i couldn't agree more...as some one who's life goal is to have every show i would like to see whole shows released....yes there are some performances that lack some luster but that is just life and one of the reasons i love the grateful dead so much cause everyone has good and bad days...and if suppose there is only a partial show in the vault iam shore some one out there would be willing to kick down what they have...
peace and hugs to all
whole shows
Rhino ears are really small ain't they?
whole shows, please.
and if for some reason, like tape flipping, whatever, the dude taping had to go fix something else, and the whole show ain't there, just say so... or shit, choose a different show to release.
I would rather not have such fancy schmancy packaging, and rather have a 4 CD set instead of 3 that ain't a complete show... if it is the cost involved in that decision making process.
but what I really want is DVDs...
peace.
Blow the Door Off TheVault!
mix down everything to it's best playable level and charge 3 rates:All Access Downloads
All Access CDs
All Access All Access
So much has already been released. I don't know about others, but I want IT ALL and an willing to pay for it. I hate being nickle and dimed to death!
ok, i'm gonna get it over with early
complete shows, please.......or throw in a cookie or two (or 3) in place of missing sets
Whole shows
Without a doubt is the way to go. When I first started collecting, I would erase Drums/Space or a song here and there so I could fit the entire show on 2 CD's rather than 3 for example. Now I regret doing that and am trying to replace these "broken" shows. The GD are all about live performances in my opinion and to get the full on "experience" it is highly recommended to listen to the shows from start to finish. I mean when I want to listen to the GD, I don't put American Beauty on, I put on Red Rocks 1978 or New Years Eve at Winterland etc. etc.
But this is a business too (people forget that) and the compilation CD's must sell well so that's why they do it. I can't argue against that practice, I just choose not to buy these. Like someone else mentioned, that is how you speak out - with your wallet.
"Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"
Oh and I almost forgot
I enjoy audience recordings the best. I don't mind losing a bit of the sound quality to be able to hear how the crowd reacts to certain moments or songs. When the audience is going nuts over a Jack Straw opener or a tear jerking Terrapin, it makes you feel like you are right there and it always sends chills up and down my spine and goose bumps on my neck no matter how many times I listen. Its hard to get that feeling from a compilation.
"Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"
Whole Shows
I prefer whole shows by far. There is something about the flow of a live show that is lost in a compilation. I find I am much more likely to listen to the whole CD of a live show. I tend to play only favorite tracks of the compilations I own. I also agree with Jackstrawfromco that in many cases I prefer audience recordings as the interaction of the audience is an integral part of what makes a Dead show special!
Question
I have now seen repeatedly the assertion that download sites remove whole shows once any portion of them appear in compilations. (I've also asserted that until I hear otherwise we will do no such thing in the Vineyard.)
When I ran this by the Rhino folks, the response was, in essence, "Buh?" Any such removal, as far as we can tell, is not being driven by anything on this end and this was as big a surprise to them as it was to me. We're wondering if the sites themselves have uberstringent policies over which we have no control.
Hence I would appreciate a bit of chapter and verse on this. Preferably in PMs so as not to derail this discussion. Who removes what when? Thanks.
One compilation I'd love to see
Ordinarily, I love straight shows. But here's one compilation that is crying to be made:
A collection of Joan Osborne's vocal work from the 2003 (?) Dead tour.
Joan is such a fantastic singer, and her lead vocals brought colors and flavors to the band's music that were new and moving. With apologies to Donna, this was the first time we heard a woman sing many of the lead parts to some of the greatest songs of the last 40 years.
Unfortunately, the quickie CDs that came out during that tour buried Joan's voice in the mix. Her magic is blurred.
What the world needs now is a re-mastered set of those tunes where Joan is singing lead, with her voice front and center and soaring.
I'm sure I wouldn't be the only guy rushing out to buy that one as soon as it appeared.
A
whole shows only please, I concur with above posts, it's the flow man, cut it up and what have you got? a collection of tunes, without the heart and soul of the performance. What if there was rhino back in bethoven's day, would they edit him also? What i can't figure out is who decides what is edited and what is released, is that person a deadhead? Or a corporate bottom line kinda person? Seems to me that there is alot more desire for complete recordings of shows with all the warts and flubs and misques then "perfect" tunes in a row. In my experience, the inperfection of some tunes only lead to perfection of it later on down the road. I my self would like to hear that progression from inperfect to the sweetness that we all know can be found on almost any recorded dead concert. I don't care if it's SBD or Aud or patched sbd with aud or visa versa, I want all of the magic, not what someone else decides is best for me.
D
I'm not a purist. Most of my favourite live releases are compilations like Stepping Out and Ladies and Gentlemen..., I've heard few full shows where there weren't at least a few tracks that were skippable, especially in the first set. That said, I do think it's important to put out a full show now and then, especially if it's a 'historic' or legendary gig. Otherwise, if it's just one or several good shows from an under-represented era or an unusual context, a compilation is fine with me. I'm not a dyed in the wool Deadhead though, and I never saw the band live (didn't become a fan until a few years ago), so I might not represent the majority. I understand people who were at the shows sometimes want the whole thing to document the experience, but since I was never at any of them, it just doesn't matter that much to me.
a live video, SVP!!!
What I'd like best is a live video of a Grateful Dead list on my favorite songs ,such as "little red rooster", Cassidy , Ship of fools and whatever else, where we see each of the band playing their top performance !!! Even me, with a shoestring budget I'd want to buy that ! Euh, would you take western union for the bill ? I'm not ready to learn how to order/pay via my computer with the bad reputation of this option in Europe ,even on supposed secure payments...
...since you asked...
I really do not care whether the releases are complete shows or compilations. I would like to see a balance based purely on the quality of the music. In a perfect world, one box set a year of a complete run of shows, two full-show releases and two compilations would make 5 releases per year.
Only those who work behind the scenes really know what is in the vault and I trust their judgement as to what to release and in what format. It must not be easy to be between the fanatic deadheads and the rhino bean-counters!
86 or 87 Pittsburg show with the Nevelle Bros
Does anybody know if the Pittsburg show with the Nevell Brothers is avaiable. I think it was 1986 or 1987. Would really like to see this show out there.
`65-67 comps and jam comps (all eras)
I recently downloaded a killer "Viola" from March '66, which left me wanting more.I realize there are likely not alot of complete shows from those days, so I would like to request a "best-of" comp series from those years, with an emphasis on lengthy jams (45 minute versions of "Midnight Hour" etc.).
I'd.also like to request a jam series, in which the best jams (no or little lyrics) from over the years are edited together a la "Grayfolded." A '69 jam can go into an '89 jam which can go into a '77 jam, etc. etc: Different songs or even the same song (Estimated or Eyes, for instance).
That would be heaven for this GD-jam-head.
Thank you and happy holidays.
wolff
I like all of your choices. Everything from Alpine '86-'89 would be awesome. I attended Alpine '86, '87 which my personal favorite year there and '89 but only the middle show and the one not represented on the Downhill From Here DVD. Red Rocks '87 would be awesome which has one of my all time favorite Estimated's. Of course the Greeks, Frosts and Cal Expos from those years would all be welcome additions as official releases to me. My favorite era.
Vault releases?
So, I was one of the few who appreciated the original concept of the Road Trips series (i.e., highlights from "runs" of shows). Does the move to issuing complete shows now mean that we won't get any more "vault" releases? I know the box sets will keep coming, but I was really digging releases like To Terrapin: Hartford '77 and Crimson, White and Indigo.
Maybe Road Trips can continue as compilation releases and we step up the Vault releases for whole shows? Or is the issue not enough multi-track whole shows to pursue that kind of release schedule?
Europe '72 books
For those who couldn't get in on the "Europe '72: The Complete Recordings" deluxe limited edition mega box set (the 7200) and have bought the "All Music Edition", like me, I wish those two books that came with that set would be made available, either seperately or as a bundle.Forget the steamer trunk case.
1967 4 disc set
DISC ONE
18 March 1967 Winterland
1. Me & My Uncle
2. Next Time You See Me
3. He was a Friend of Mine
4. Smokestack Lightning
5. Morning Dew
6. It Hurts Me Too
7. Beat It on Down the Line
8. Dancing in the Streets
9. Golden Road
10. Cream Puff War
11. The Same Thing
12. Cold Rain & Snow
≈67mins
DISC TWO
1. Viola Lee Blues
2. Death Don’t Have No Mercy
18 June 1967 Monterey Pop Festival
3. Cold Rain & Snow
4. Viola Lee Blues
5. Alligator >
6. Caution
≈61mins
DISC THREE
3 September 1967 Rio Nido Dance Hall
1. Dancing in the Street
2. It Hurts Me Too
3. Cold Rain & Snow
4.Good Morning Little Schoolgirl >
5. Viola Lee Blues >
6. Big Boss Man
≈75 mins
DISC THREE
1. Alligator >
2. Feedback
3. In the Midnight Hour
≈46mins
DISC FOUR
11 November 1967 Shrine Exposition Hall
1. Turn on Your Lovelight
2. Beat It on Down the Line
3. Death Don’t Have No Mercy
4. Good Morning Little Schoolgirl
5. Cryptical Envelopment>
6. The Other One>
7. Cryptical Envelopment
8. Alligator>
9. Caution>
10. Feedback
≈75mins
Response to the referendum posted above
Whole shows when they are available.
Chop jobs of complete shows should never happen.
That referendum question is from 2009.
Dave/Rhino are now releasing complete shows whenever possible, including songs as filler on the following DaP so that we get the complete show.
And now with 10-1-77 patching with an AUD source so that the complete show is released.
Also, such as with DaP46 Bonus Disc, and the 2-27-77 filler, giving us all that exists of incomplete shows in the vault.
Thanks Dave/Rhino, keep it up.
Now, what’s up with that banana box?
Partial shows from 65-69 should also be Boxed up together and released.