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    marye
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    Got ideas for how things should be run differently in the Vineyard? Improvements? Suggestions? Brainstorms? Truckloads of fertilizer? Post here.,On the floor at MSG... one perfect song after another...and we were beyond elated with disbelief and gratitude. This was truely a fantasy set list and, in my opinion, the best of my 8 show run.

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  • JackstrawfromC…
    Joined:
    MP3 to WAV
    Any recommendations for MP3 to WAV conversion software?? "Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"
  • dstache
    Joined:
    oops on Northern New England Wish List
    Sorry about that, fluff. It was LoneStarDarkStar. Looks like he mailed them out sometime after 5/19, Tommo received them, and that Tommo mailed it out after I did my research. Just a little lack of communication there. It had been 3 weeks since there was any apparent movement on that vine so I noted it. But all is well and that vine is continuing to spread.
  • pomo1
    Joined:
    Re-seed
    I have already re-seeded More May 77. I will also re-seed one of MitD's stalled vines, Maples Pavillion 2/9/73 (a great show IMHO) and also Lewiston, Maine, 9/6/80, to get things started. Give me a few days to figure out who is next and to PM for addresses. "One watch by night, one watch by day If you get confused, listen to the music play"
  • fluffhead042
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    um....no i didn't....
    (I) Northern New England Wish List: on 5/19 fluffhead420 said he would PM Tommo for his address. Estim8ed was after Tommo. No word. "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."
  • pomo1
    Joined:
    Here is Derek's prior post.
    thanks again and congratulations on the proper use of the word "perusal." After an exhaustive, and exhausting, perusal of all the Grateful Dead and JGB (and LOM, and Recon, etc) vines, but NOT vines for other bands or even the current incarnation of the boys, here is what I have: (1) For all the trouble we seem to be having, this is an AWESOME place. The MAJORITY of vines are either still alive or have died a natural death, i.e., the last person on the list received it and no one signed up after. My collection has grown by leaps and bounds because of the vineyard. Let's be grateful for what we have. It reminds me of the saying that democracy is the worst form of government, except for every other kind. Sure, we have problems, but all in all this may be the best place for Heads on the internet. (2) Communication is the key. Going through the vines, I noticed the lack of communication. It is difficult to figure out on some of them where the vine died. Post often, post when you receive the vine, post when you mail it out and to whom mailed it. (3) Although I initially disagreed with the recommendation, I now agree that we should PM the person after us, both to confirm they are still active and their address. (4) Emergencies happen. We need to be patient with that. Just let us know and we will be. As we all know, Hal has a family illness. He has a few vines and I am sure we all want him to take whatever time he needs. (5) As I said, sometimes it isn't clear, but when your name appears numerous times it is tough to give you the benefit of the doubt. For example, if 3 different people say they mailed you 3 different vines, and none of the vines turn up again, it is difficult to blame the mail (it DOES happen, but NOT to the same person that many times). (6) The bad guys. No doubt about these characters. They are the Bermuda Triangle of viners. DO NOT SEND THEM ANY MORE VINES UNTIL THEY CLEAR THINGS UP WITH THE COMMUNITY. Do not just send them a PM and ask if they are active; they have caused too many vines to disappear for that. They are vine killers. They have killed before, and they will kill again. (a) Chinacat503 appears to have killed at least 3 vines (Nov 72, Eurovines # 4 & # 5). (b) Markinthedark, once a great viner, appears to have absconded with at least 6 vines (KPFA, Maples 2/9/73, Flac Me Flac You, 12/27/77, Early Stuff Vol 1, 3 and Augusta 10/12/84); (c) gratefulmikes appears to have killed at least 8 vines (funiculi funicula, 93 by request, Legion of Mary, Winterland June 77, NYE 83, Summer 82, Greek 84 and LOM Mystery). NOTE THAT he is signed up to soon receive Europe 74 so heads up birdsong1969nj and Jimbo (unclear who has it right now)!!!! He may also have killed Red Rocks 9/8/83 (or Deadhead Ben never sent it to him) (d) Day Glo Louisville appears to have killed at least 4 vines (Eurovine Acoustic, Garcia/Saunders 73, March 28,31/73, Jerry solo 4/10/82). He is also an interesting person in the Garcia Party disappearance; (e) j.straw (NOT to be confused with jackstrawfromcolorado) seems to have disappeared with at least 5vines (Lewiston 9/6/80, Beacon 6/14/76, Fox 85, 3 from 82 and Hampton 89 reseed) (f) canyon critter seems to have killed at least 4 vines (Acid Test, 1985 vine, History Buffs, and Fillmore East 9/20/70); (g) PAPPYPGH appears to have killed at least 3 vines (Hampton/Harrisburg...84, 2/17/82, JGB 1977 Part 2, Silver Stadium 6/30/88), not to mention the Fall 79 Part 1.5 Rhino fiasco (either Pappy or Solix killed this one, tough to tell who). Pappy also should have recently received the Spring 88 parts 1 and 2 vines (Stephen in PA sent them on 5/28). Finally, he is up soon on More May 77 and JGB Keystone 12/21/79 (DON'T SEND THEM TO HIM!!!!) (7) Guys who have a little explaining to do. I am not sure here whether they have commited multiple vine slayings, or were just irepeatedly n the wrong place at the wrong time. These guys should explain to the community what happened before being welcomed back, but any old explanation will do. (a) Sakparadise is a suspect in at least 2 vine kills (Glen Falls 82, Fall 79 Part 2) and there are some questions about 2 other vines. Sakparadise posted on 4/29 that he would mail out the March 90 vine to Row Timmy. The vine has not been seen since. On 5/20 jackstrawfromcolorado, the good jack straw, posted the he would mail the Pink Floyd vine to sakparadise. That vine hasn't been seen since. It hasn't been that long for Pink Floyd (it was my vine, that is why I looked it up) so it may be ok, and Row Timmy has his issues so it may have been him on March 90. (b) Row Timmy was apparently involved in a couple of mysterious vine disappearances. March 90 discussed above and 3 from 75, which PKpotter said he mailed to Row Timmy on 9/12/08. (c) Brother Tom is suspected in 2 vine slayings. Solix said he mailed Cream Filling 73 to our holy friend. Brother Tom was the last person to receive Matrix Volume 1, and it wasn't until 2months later that anyone else signed up, but he doesn't seem to have passed it on. (d) Deadheadben seems to have slayed the infant Cleveland Convention Center 12/06/73, before it had much of a chance to travel the country. Either he or grateful mikes killed Red Rocks 9/8/83. And either he or Hard To Handle killed Sante Fe 83. (8) Guys who had minor hiccups [hopefully) (a) my friend Dave C was the last to have Early 69 (shoot, don’t know what volume this was, sorry) (posted 5/13) and should have received Early Stuff Vol 2 (unclejon posted on 5/20 that he mailed it out). Dave C posted that he had computer problems. I am sure he either sent these vines on and didn’t post (here, another call for communicating, post often) or is resolving his computer problems and will soon send them on. Ejjd is next on Early 69 and Jake R on Early Stuff Vol 2. (b) Darkstar1971 (aka Estimatedprophet 1971) rides the rails quite often. I think he is an engineer, the kind you think of when you are kid (a train engineer) but never meet. Hal posted on 3/19 that he mailed DarkStar1971 Fall 77 Part 2. No word since. DarkStar1971 was the last to have Orpheum 7/12/76, pisting on 4/20. Pomo1 is next for Orpheum. (9) Specific vines not mentioned above, many probably involved miscommunications. If you are involved here and can help resolve, please do. You don’t even need an excuse here, just a “I never got it” or “I sent it out” or even a “sorry” will suffice. (a) 3/28/81: Benny Jakes stalled this one for 3 months but eventually passed it on to On The Road Again, who apparently killed it. (b) Felt Forum 1971: greatfullygrateful was the last to post having it, said he had a family emergency, never posted having sent it on to Arkdeadhead. © Repatriation 1971: Fluffhead420 posted on 4/8/09. He was last in line. 3 weeks later Jake R and dpwstldeadfan signed up. No word on where this vine is. (d) Eurovine # 1: Dead Man Telling Tales posted on 4/20. He was last in line. Jake R and others signed up later. Now word on where this vine is. (e) Keith’s First Few Months: dpwstldeadfan posted on 5/6. Only Gr8tful Ted is signed up after. He may have received it and not posted. (f) Valentine’s Day: fluffhead420 posted on 3/9. He was last in line. Lord Monkey and Jake R signed up after. No word on where this vine is. (g) MSG 93 Part 2: Tommo posted on 3/24 that he sent it to Toddsnc. No word since. (h) Jai Alai 74: On 5/12 KingCargoJB posted that he mailed it to Emily J. Slimee is after her. No word since. (I) Northern New England Wish List: on 5/19 fluffhead420 said he would PM Tommo for his address. Estim8ed was after Tommo. No word. (j) 70 & 73: On ½ Estim8ed said he mailed it to Chasmo, who said he never received it. Probably lost in the mail. (k) BCT 86: on 4/13 ark deadhead posted that he would mail to Pkpotter. No word. (l) Little Bit of Jerry: on 4/14 Long Rifle posted that he had it. OneGratefulDad and Fleaflicker were next. No word. (m) 5 Garcia shows: on 5/21 cacthim hickory matt (or something like that) posted that he got them. Fleaflicker and Space Otter were next. No word. (n) Dead/NRPS 1970: on 5/5 birdsong1969nj said he would mail out to test4965. No word. (o) Pigpen Shotgun: on 5/8 Phat Moye said he would mail out to Jake R. Da roach was after that. No word. (p) Brent’s Last show video: lost in mail btwn gadeadhead and JimmyC (q) More May 77: on 5/28 Pomo1 posted he would reseed to Larry Here. PAPPY IS NEXT. LARRY HERE SKIP PAPPY!!!! ® More Mary: on 1/23, rambleinbearisgrateful posted that he mailed to Tommo. Stuman, then bearisgrateful were next. No word. Lost in mail? (s) Bill Graham Tribute: Playdead apparently killed. This vine was reseeded to the person after him. (t) Shoreline 91: on 12/24 Chasmo posted that he had it. ark deadhead was next. No word. Apparently Chasmo killed it. (u) merriweather 6/30/85: on 4/29 fluffhead420 posted that he PM’d OneGratefulDad for his address. No word. (v) Boston Tea Party 1969: on 5/11 Slimee posted having it. Dpwstldeadfan was next. No word. (10) I am too tired for final thoughts. All will be forgiven, except for that first group. I hope those that have disappeared with vines are ok, and are only AWOL here and not in reality. Others can figure out what to do next. I am not proofreading this so there are probably some spelling and grammatical mistakes. Vine on!!! "One watch by night, one watch by day If you get confused, listen to the music play"
  • dstache
    Joined:
    vine stalls
    I think we should do all the vine stalling discussions here. Feel free to copy and paste my detective work here, Pomo. I agree re: the reseeding, especially for SHN/FLAC. With WAV though, it's one more generation away from the original so it isn't ideal.
  • pomo1
    Joined:
    I would like to Volunteer
    to re-seed some of the vines that have crashed. Should we re-post Dstache's list in this topic and people can try to solve the issues, whether by re-seeding or prompting people or however? In other words, do we need a separate "stalled vine" topic, or just do it here? I also believe that it would be appropriate for persons other than the original seeders to re-seed where feasible. The original seeders have already gone through the expense and time of planting, and others should help to get the vines re-growing. Just my opinion. Thanks again for everyone's input and effort. If anyone hears from MitD, please let us know. "One watch by night, one watch by day If you get confused, listen to the music play"
  • UncleJon
    Joined:
    MitD
    Yep, I'm concerned too. I even went so far as to try and do some basic internet sleuthing to see if I could get any google/dogpile hits for Mark Stanfield in the Louisville, KY area. "when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door"
  • JackstrawfromC…
    Joined:
    MitD
    I know. All the things I can think of what possibly happened aren't real good. Im trying to think positive though. Maybe he just wanted to get away... "Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"
  • marye
    Joined:
    yeah
    I admit it, I'm worried about MITD also.
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Got ideas for how things should be run differently in the Vineyard? Improvements? Suggestions? Brainstorms? Truckloads of fertilizer? Post here.,On the floor at MSG... one perfect song after another...and we were beyond elated with disbelief and gratitude. This was truely a fantasy set list and, in my opinion, the best of my 8 show run.
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15 years 8 months
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My apologies for going incommunicado for a little while . . . work and medical stuff blindsided me. Nothing serious, but enough to make trips to the post office a more difficult thing to fit into the schedule. I'll be getting back in the game today, at least with regard to moving along the vines in my possession. ~~~~~~~ "They say Cain caught Abel rolling loaded dice"
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I have some video that I might be seeding sometime in the future , it would fit on either two standard dvd`s or 1 DVD-DL. What do you all think about dual layer dvd`s ? " Im a King Bee "
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16 years 9 months
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they should save room. you just copy one side and then flip it over to copy the next, right?
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is all on one side . 8.5 gig on one side ! They are a little expensive as compared to regular dvd`rs. twice the disc space for almost twice the price , kinda like a ying - yang thing here . they are nice for all that storage room !! But if not many people know about them , then it may not be a good idea to vine something on a duel layer dvd hua ?
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as far as I know all dvd players can handle them . and any computer should be able to copy them . I hav`nt had any problemes with them .
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forgot to say .. of course you need another DL to copy to . or copy into a hard drive but you still will need a DL when your ready to burn it .
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I hate breaking the energy flow with a disc change. "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."
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just put a warning that at $15 a disc, reseeds may not be as readily available as other seeds. I would think folks that have dl capability would be glad to see this - and hopefully those that can't handle at least a conversion won't sign up for it. I have a pc that has dl capability, but i've never explored it. I don't have alot of video & do most of my archiving on hard drives i've acquired over the years.
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Once I figure exactly what shows I`ll do I will post them along with a disclaimer explaining dl capacity and the expense of dl disc as far as re-seeds and al that goes . Thanks for the input guys , I really appreciate it !!
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Just posted this in the specific vine forum.... but I am loving this run so much that I thought I would put the word out here as well..... This vine was just sent to the last person on the list and will be available soon! Thanks all. Raymond
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I am still around, but I will be busy this week and will not be able to respond to PMs after today. I am not aware of anything heading my way. If it comes, in, it will be next week before it goes out.
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17 years 2 months
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Do you lie awake at night wishing that there was a vine named after you? Sleep easy my friend, because your wish has come true. The first person to post here in the metatopic the 4 shows from 1979 that he would like vined will have said vine named after him. Or if he is a she it will be named after her. The vine will be 1 DVD of SHN/FLAC and as many WAV CDs that the 4 shows break down to (probably 12).
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2-09-1979 Soldiers' and Sailors' Memorial Hall2-10-1979 Soldiers' and Sailors' Memorial Hall 2-11,1979 Venue Kiel Auditorium 2-17,1979 Oakland Coliseum. This was Keith and Donna's last show with the Dead. Sorry guys, I'm not a big fan of Brent.
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You are going to piss off Marye with that Brett comment. :>). Derek, I like the sound of "The Beggar's Tomb Brentless '79 Vine." Thanks. "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." Albert Einstein
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17 years 2 months
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That name sounds good, Pomo1. I will work on it and post by this weekend
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Backing vocals over Donna's any day of the week!!! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
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Donna still is a wonderful performer and did add quite a bit of stage presence during her time with the band. Don't let infrequent moments on some of the recordings diminish her accomplishments or contributions to the band. Brent, on the other hand, really didn't fill the void after she left, but he was an outstanding keyboardist.
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Donna's contributions. I just don't overly care for her singing especially when she over does it. I just know that when GD plays a song like Playing in the Band for example and it is in the 70's I better turn down the volume because her wailing makes me jump out of my seat at times :-) Same affect I get when fingers run down a chalk board. I prefer Brent's mellower, grittier tone but hey its just my opinion bro! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
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Hi GD folks, well, I'd like to replace this specific one CD that circulated around 2001 or so....As many of you know there were two gaps in the legendary Cornell show from 77 .... one in the begininng of the show on "minglewood blues" and the other in " lazy lightning>supplication" Apparently, there was a master cassette source that was run by Betty or somebody on the crew that has a soundboard patch option since that music was run and wasn't sourced off the reels... so, with all the crazy re-mastering that has happened for example the neat "matrix" sources with aud patches, etc. ... Why didn't somebody patch with a soundboard master cassette? There's not too much lacking but with really good software a engineer could EQ and level out the difference really well.... has anybody seen this one CDR floating around , and if so , please seed it - so we can finally get rid of the aud patches that circulate so much on this show.... sincerely, Ursa Minor http://www.myspace.com/donnieloeffler "the warm wet world of analog audio"
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I am going to seed a multi-part 79 vine, the best shows from Donna/Keith's final tour, early Brent, Fall, etc. I do not have the time to convert all of these to WAV. So what I was wondering, what would people think if I converted one show per part (probably 4 shows per part) and asked the first three persons to convert one show each? So the first 3 people would have to do FLAC/SHN.
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I would be willing to convert a show to .wav and add it in.... are people anxious for the wav files instead of the flac/shn?? I know Oroboros wants .wav....I guess there are others too.... Want to separate them out and keep the one lossless vine and then do 2 shows per .wav vine? Just throwing out an idea.... Thanks for all of this wonderful music!! I am now finallly being able to pay back a bit... with reseeds.... and I am happy to do it!! Raymond
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Hey all.... I have a vine here for Birdsong who is next... and I don't have an address.... did I read that he was on an extended vacation for 5 weeks? Couldn't find that post if I did... can anyone send me his address?? Hate to hold this one.... the May 1981 Vine thats just getting started from JStrawinColorado.... PM me if you know.... thought for sure I had it but I don't.... Thanks. Raymond
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15 years 11 months
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I'll help out with wav conversion if you want to send out wav... Although its been nice having some lower postage lately! :-) Thanks again for all the 70's stuff dstache!!!! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
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that MarkintheDark and I planned on vining before his disappearance. The Talking Heads was the first (does anybody know if that got mailed?). Some of the others included Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, David Bowie, and some more Pink Floyd. Has anyone heard from him at all?
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I am a little surprised it has not happened already ... but I can seed the 3 Furthur shows if there is interest?? "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
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17 years 5 months
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I'll be the first one on it if possible.
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15 years 8 months
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Hell Yea!! That would be great! Raymond
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15 years 11 months
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Ok cool I'll do it then! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
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anything about DaveC?Just noticed he was next on 2 vines.... one was posted as sent to him.... the other was ready to go out to him but wasn't posted as sent. One was Erickat's Glen Falls 82 vine all the way back to the end of April.... the other was JStraw from Colo's Late August 80 Vine from 5-6 weeks ago. Hoping they are not lost! Just curious.... Raymond
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17 years 5 months
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He's the next on ABB at Beacon. Any news somebody?
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17 years 2 months
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I've always found him to be reliable, even did a trade or two with him. I doubt he was the one who killed the 82 vine.
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15 years 8 months
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This one is apparently on its way to me....complete. Marye has frozen the forum....due to the new Winterland release. In order to keep the vine moving, I can remove those shows and reburn that one DVD.... and then continue the vine. With that being said, I can do anything else as well.... so let me know what you all think. As always.... I am deeply appreciative of the efforts many have made to keep this vineyard vibrant and fruitful.... Thanks!! Raymond
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I think the best way to go forward is to simply remove the three shows, re-burn the DVD that they were on, and pass it on. "That path is for, your steps alone."
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Hi Gang, I never received the Glens Falls vine - I just replied to Raymond though, that I recently moved and there may have been a delay, as there was for the Aug 80 vine (which I did receive and is ready to go out - I will find that page and IM the person next on that vine). I also have the May/July/Aug 81 vine ready to go, so at least I know THOSE vines reached me. I will get up to date on all relevant pages today. And I will keep on the lookout for Glens Falls, but honestly, I son't know where that one is....
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15 years 3 months
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i agree remove the three show and move the vine on. i think i have all three shows from SBD on cassette tape. us old tapers aren't "old and in the way".
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16 years 4 months
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Boy, I missed a lot of good stuff. "And I love the life I live And I'm gonna live the life I love"
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16 years 4 months
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Derek, me, and a few others put out a late 79' part one and two (lovin rhino vine)vine about a year ago, and the quality of the the recordings of these shows is so so. They are also MP3 from wav. Anyone interested in sourcing lossless better quality versions of these shows? and reseeding? These shows just slay.......Dstache? "And I love the life I live And I'm gonna live the life I love"
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17 years 5 months
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new version just posted welcome back Birdsong!
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17 years 2 months
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Yeah, I am going to circulate the run of shows from late Oct, easily the high point of 1979. That will probably be the next "best of 79" vine I seed. It should be posted in a week or two.
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17 years 5 months
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DSB of 18th Sept now appearing :-)More to come apparently
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15 years 8 months
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This Vine is in my possession.... my plan is to burn new discs which will not include the recently released Winterland shows. This will take the vine from 4 DVDs to 3. After I finish that burn I can post the new order of discs here for Marye's approval (?) so we can keep this vine growing. Is that approrpriate and acceptable? Please advise. Thanks all. Raymond
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17 years 6 months
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There seems to be general agreement on this so if Raymond sends me the updated contents I can post that and open the comments back up and the vine can reflourish... Thanks all. And welcome back birdsong!
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A 1980 acoustic vine would be great. You could probably fit all the acoustic sets on 2 DVDs. It would break down into too many CDs but WAV files could be vined in parts for the FLACless. Many of the electric sets are supposed to be forgettable so I would be more than satisfied with just the acoustic sets. I'd still like to see the rest of the Brent 1990 shows vined. I was pleasantly surprised with the 1984 shows that were recently vined and would like to acquire more of the GOOD ONES (there are many clunkers from that year and I have no need for them). A discerning seeder is required here, haha. As for me, I will work on getting more of 1979 out there. I have the entire year. I vined the shows I thought were the best from Donna & Keith's final tour plus some requests from Beggar's Tomb. I will vine the best of from the fall tour (the late Oct run, duh) and the early Brent shows once I listen to them.
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I'd love some tasty Acoustic Dead....and yes, PLEASE on the Brent shows. "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."
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started by dstache and crew 1977 Lossless: Part 3 (6/4-10/14) avatar On August 9th, 2009 dstache said: Part 3 of this vine is ready to go. Multiple sources for many of the shows in this period will be included. Thanks again to jsfc, Hippy, Pomo1, Estim8ed, Arkdeadhead, CB, Rick and Richard for all their help! Sources: (Revised Sept. 2009 due to official release of Winterland '77. Buy it! ) 77-06-04.bertrando.goodbear.3417 77-06-04.fob.menke.motb.0096.97183 77-09-28.95952.sbd.cantor-crouch-diebert-gmb 77-09-29.sbd.cantor-crouch-diebert-gmb 77-10-01.sbd.crouch-diebert-gmb.86234 77-10-02.sbd.cantor-crouch-diebert-gmb.86354 77-10-06.sbd.gorinsky.5804 77-10-07.s2.sbd.miller.80753 77-10-09.sbd.miller.xxxxx 77-10-11.sbd.miller.87514 77-10-12.sbd.cotsman.19291 77-10-14.sbd.tetzeli.34260
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Namely the 1980 halloween run in NY plus 10/3/80. I just didn't know if I could vine these because some of them are on Reckoning??? "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
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Since Reckoning is a compilation, I believe it is ok to vine the shows from which it was taken. Anyone have any more of the shows? The acoustic sets should all fit on 2 DVDs so it would be nice to do them all at once. But just those shows would be fine too.