• 1,335 replies
    marye
    Joined:
    Got ideas for how things should be run differently in the Vineyard? Improvements? Suggestions? Brainstorms? Truckloads of fertilizer? Post here.,On the floor at MSG... one perfect song after another...and we were beyond elated with disbelief and gratitude. This was truely a fantasy set list and, in my opinion, the best of my 8 show run.

Comments

sort by
Recent
Reset
  • Ltapilot
    Joined:
    ohyea
    You are spot on with your thoughts. My lousy player in my truck does not support lossless formats so I have to make a choice. I can convert one show to WAV and fill up three CD's and I have clear and clean, highs and lows. With three discs floating around it is hard to keep every thing organized. Now if I convert the same show to a lossy MP3 I can get the whole show (sometimes 2) on one CD. I had to give up the clear clean sound with pristine highs and deep lows. In the truck at 75 miles per hour it does not make a lot of difference. To much road noise. This is a personal choice. If I were to vine or torrent that MP3 and the person who receives it try's to play it on his high end super system and it sounds like a tin can recording. I did not help enrich his experience I helped to degenerate it. This is not good and I have imposed my choices on him. This is why using MP3's for personal use OK but to trade or vine them is frowned upon. I have not been lucky in finding any factual evidence that lossless recording keep all of their bits and bytes in place when copied from copy's but I do know that is is frowned upon in more sites than this one. Some places will drum you out of the ranks for that infraction. I think we are a bit more enlighten here but as a courtesy to our fellow vines. PLEASE only send the original discs in a lossless format. Peace Rick
  • ohyeah
    Default Avatar
    Joined:
    not to confuse the issue, but . . .
    So there's the media (the CDs & DVDs in this case), the player/recorder of the media (hardware, software, or, most likely, a combination of the two; in this case, a hardware CD/DVD drive and a software player), and the audio system through which one may listen to the audio signal from the player/recorder (computer amplifier/speakers, high-end home stereo systems, headphones, etc.). The quality of all three of these aspects can vary. For instance, as the original discs travel from person to person, they get scratched, nicked, blemished, etc. At some point, lower-quality CD/DVD drives and the associated software will not be able to correct the errors read from the discs. That's one of the big areas of variation among drives/software---the sophistication of their error correction. If someone with a lower-quality drive were to replace the scratched discs with new ones, the error correction issues go away, but now the errors that went uncorrected by his drive are burned onto the media. Even perfect error correction will no longer see the error, because to the software it's not an error anymore. Finally, the audio systems can vary . . . for instance, the volume (ie, soft/loud) and the frequency range of the music will change depending on the speakers/headphones and amplifiers used. Those are issues caused by the electrical design and performance of the gear. If everyone had the same gear and always vined the same files on perfect-quality discs, everyone would be presented with exactly the same music. But even then it would *sound* different to different people due to the last and perhaps most critical point of variation . . . our senses of hearing. But back to basic topic at hand, many people prefer lossless compression (SHN, FLAC, Apple Lossless, etc.) over lossy compression (MP3, AAC, etc.) because no information from the original, uncompressed file is lost during compression. It's a way to save file storage space without degrading file quality. Everyone chooses the trade-off they want to make between storage space and file quality, but in light of the low cost of storage I think many make this decision based on the formats' ease of use. It does take some time to get up to speed with SHN/FLAC in particular because of the lack of support for the formats in mainstream media players, both software (iTunes, Windows Media Player, etc.) and hardware (iPod, Zune, etc.). Arguably, Apple Lossless would be easier for more people to use and would still be lossless. But then some people don't like being tied to a closed-source, proprietary standard like Apple Lossless for fear that Apple will discontinue/change it; FLAC is open-source, so there's no issue there. SHN, interestingly, is not open-source, but the owners of SHN apparently choose not to try to exclude others from incorporating it into their software players (Cog, for example). I probably complicated the discussion rather than simplifying it, but that's my $.02. ~~~~~~~ "They say Cain caught Abel rolling loaded dice"
  • Ltapilot
    Joined:
    Added noise
    Great discussions here, I am happy to see the interest in this topic.Please take a look at these pages for some impartial ideas. etree.org is a good place to start The Etree Wiki A rather technical discution of lossy vv Lossless Wikipedia's discustion of Lossy Comprestion Wikipedia's discustion of Lossless Comprestion Peace Rick
  • erickat
    Joined:
    There seems to be a confusion of how copies work
    in the old days - the original source was read (IN) and converted from whatever source it existed on (e.g tape) and was passed through the machine mechanism from the IN section, through the MIXER section, to the OUT section, where it was replicated - along with any noise that was included along the way. However, Nowadays, with the Digital revolution, this is not the path of replication - it simply reads what is on A and writes it to B, in an identical fashion, so that if you make 500 copies of a source, they are all identical.
  • erickat
    Joined:
    digital copies are exact - regardless of format
    If I send you a cd full of text files - or of video files, or of wav files - or of shit files. and you copy it, it is an exact copy - no loss - it's all digital - regardless of format your copy version is identical to the original - that;s the beauty of the digital age!!!!
  • erickat
    Joined:
    here's the info i pm'd to you
    Lossless vs. lossy is an issue surrounding the compression of raw audio files, which can be quite sizable. in the old days, people copied cassette tapes, which introduced more noise with each copy. Now that we're digital, that issue goes away - unless you down-convert to some format like MP3, which throws away certain information in order to achieve a smaller size.
  • deadhead33
    Default Avatar
    Joined:
    new2u
    you'll have to excuse my lack of computer skills, but how do i use this lossless u speak of? Im always looking to expand my collection.
  • erickat
    Joined:
    not true
    Derik,you said... if I copy the WAV disc you send me, and trade it to someone else, and they copy their disc and trade it to a third person, and they do the same, there is going to be some sound quality loss. this is cassette tape thinking - there is no loss in digital (cd) copying - it is true identical copying - no loss.
  • erickat
    Joined:
    ok - i think i have it now
    The site has not been accomodating my previous efforts at posting.I feel compelled to state the following points 1.lossless is not a music format - it is a compression scheme. (shit converted to flac is still shit) The orignial recorded copy is in some sort of audio format - which then gets copied .... either identically ... or in a compressed format. If it gets converted identically, in the same format - it's identical. (takes more space) If it gets converted in a lossless format, it can be re-created completely. (takes less space) If it gest converted to a lossy format (mp3) - then the lost information is gone for good (whether you could hear the diference or not) (takes lots less space) Raw music takes up lots of space. You can keep it native, or compress it to any one of many formats - but some are "lossy" (mp3) and some are lossless (shn / flac). There are many others. What works for you is your own business - but don't re-introduce lesser copies into the "original" world - this is pretty easy to avoid. In the old days, cassette copying introduced hiss - this goes away with digital copies. shn / flac exist simply to provide for compression - they are typically converted to wav for playing. The wav stuff i put out comes from flac or shn sources, so it's identical to the source - just being shared in a different format. if you convert to mp3 for your own use, that's your decision - just don't re-represent it as lossless. (nuff said). But - the stuff I seeded is itdentical to the source!!!! 2. I typically make the determination as to format, based on volume if it's one show (2 or 3 cd's) i may put it out as 3 audio cd's (for convenience) - but it's from a lossless source. If it's more than that, I will just put it out on DVD - and find stuff to maximize the space (so u get more). if someone was to ask me to provide an mp3 version, i would feel comfortable doing so, with the caveat that it is MP3 and lossless - not to be mis-represented later. 3.I don't care what you do with it, after it leaves my hands - i will usually try to track a vine to see if it's been lost or needs a re-seed, but if you want to convert to wav, or mp3, it makes no difference to me - It's not about me - it's about you - and about the music getting out and about, so i don't mind lots of little efforts vs. one huge endeavor that lumbers about... it reminds me of a great wizard who wanted his legacy to be preserved. In one case, he simply dumped everything on the young apprentice - and said "there you go". vs. the alternate ending, which has the master stringing the apprentice along, with one discovery after another, one by one, keeping interest and building commitment over time until the apprentice has the same zeal that the master does - and is ready to take over. Maybe that doesn't apply here,.but it has been expressed to me that the mega-trawler ocean-going drag-net fish factory approach tends to kill the excitement of uncovering a special find - like a little show that you happened to be at (vs. "here's the19xx dump of all shows") - no, i have not been asleep for the last two months - or for any time - I;ve been here, and have been listening, and responding and will continue, dispite the lack of "superstar" status that has been conferred upon some who have arrived after me & sought the limelight to their own supplication - e.g. putting their name into each vine they seed, even if it's a group effort.
  • dstache
    Joined:
    lossless v WAV
    True, erickat, BUT, if I copy the WAV disc you send me, and trade it to someone else, and they copy their disc and trade it to a third person, and they do the same, there is going to be some sound quality loss. There won't be as much loss as there would be with cassette copying, but there will be some, and as you get further away from the WAV copy you sent me (the original copy), there is more and more sound quality loss. The way I look at it, the first few generations (my copy, the copy I trade, the copy that person trades) has minimal loss. I would guess that the loss for the first 5 copies is negligible and not noticeable. But as you get further away, it is noticeable. I have WAV shows that I acquired from other people via trades and I have noticed some loss in sound quality with the sound being "quieter" than it should be. In the end, if you are just trying to get all the shows you can for your personal use, a WAV copy of a WAV copy from the lossless source is perfectly fine. But if you may be trading that show in the future, having the lossless source is better. Either way, there is plenty of room here at the vineyard for people to vine both. But please, NO MP3!
user picture

Member for

17 years 1 month
Forums
Got ideas for how things should be run differently in the Vineyard? Improvements? Suggestions? Brainstorms? Truckloads of fertilizer? Post here.,On the floor at MSG... one perfect song after another...and we were beyond elated with disbelief and gratitude. This was truely a fantasy set list and, in my opinion, the best of my 8 show run.
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

My apologies for going incommunicado for a little while . . . work and medical stuff blindsided me. Nothing serious, but enough to make trips to the post office a more difficult thing to fit into the schedule. I'll be getting back in the game today, at least with regard to moving along the vines in my possession. ~~~~~~~ "They say Cain caught Abel rolling loaded dice"
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 7 months
Permalink

I have some video that I might be seeding sometime in the future , it would fit on either two standard dvd`s or 1 DVD-DL. What do you all think about dual layer dvd`s ? " Im a King Bee "
user picture

Member for

16 years 4 months
Permalink

they should save room. you just copy one side and then flip it over to copy the next, right?
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 7 months
Permalink

is all on one side . 8.5 gig on one side ! They are a little expensive as compared to regular dvd`rs. twice the disc space for almost twice the price , kinda like a ying - yang thing here . they are nice for all that storage room !! But if not many people know about them , then it may not be a good idea to vine something on a duel layer dvd hua ?
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 7 months
Permalink

as far as I know all dvd players can handle them . and any computer should be able to copy them . I hav`nt had any problemes with them .
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 7 months
Permalink

forgot to say .. of course you need another DL to copy to . or copy into a hard drive but you still will need a DL when your ready to burn it .
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 2 months
Permalink

I hate breaking the energy flow with a disc change. "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."
user picture

Member for

16 years 4 months
Permalink

just put a warning that at $15 a disc, reseeds may not be as readily available as other seeds. I would think folks that have dl capability would be glad to see this - and hopefully those that can't handle at least a conversion won't sign up for it. I have a pc that has dl capability, but i've never explored it. I don't have alot of video & do most of my archiving on hard drives i've acquired over the years.
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 7 months
Permalink

Once I figure exactly what shows I`ll do I will post them along with a disclaimer explaining dl capacity and the expense of dl disc as far as re-seeds and al that goes . Thanks for the input guys , I really appreciate it !!
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

Just posted this in the specific vine forum.... but I am loving this run so much that I thought I would put the word out here as well..... This vine was just sent to the last person on the list and will be available soon! Thanks all. Raymond
user picture

Member for

16 years 1 month
Permalink

I am still around, but I will be busy this week and will not be able to respond to PMs after today. I am not aware of anything heading my way. If it comes, in, it will be next week before it goes out.
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

Do you lie awake at night wishing that there was a vine named after you? Sleep easy my friend, because your wish has come true. The first person to post here in the metatopic the 4 shows from 1979 that he would like vined will have said vine named after him. Or if he is a she it will be named after her. The vine will be 1 DVD of SHN/FLAC and as many WAV CDs that the 4 shows break down to (probably 12).
user picture

Member for

15 years 1 month
Permalink

2-09-1979 Soldiers' and Sailors' Memorial Hall2-10-1979 Soldiers' and Sailors' Memorial Hall 2-11,1979 Venue Kiel Auditorium 2-17,1979 Oakland Coliseum. This was Keith and Donna's last show with the Dead. Sorry guys, I'm not a big fan of Brent.
user picture

Member for

17 years
Permalink

You are going to piss off Marye with that Brett comment. :>). Derek, I like the sound of "The Beggar's Tomb Brentless '79 Vine." Thanks. "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." Albert Einstein
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

That name sounds good, Pomo1. I will work on it and post by this weekend
user picture

Member for

15 years 5 months
Permalink

Backing vocals over Donna's any day of the week!!! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
user picture

Member for

16 years 11 months
Permalink

Donna still is a wonderful performer and did add quite a bit of stage presence during her time with the band. Don't let infrequent moments on some of the recordings diminish her accomplishments or contributions to the band. Brent, on the other hand, really didn't fill the void after she left, but he was an outstanding keyboardist.
user picture

Member for

15 years 5 months
Permalink

Donna's contributions. I just don't overly care for her singing especially when she over does it. I just know that when GD plays a song like Playing in the Band for example and it is in the 70's I better turn down the volume because her wailing makes me jump out of my seat at times :-) Same affect I get when fingers run down a chalk board. I prefer Brent's mellower, grittier tone but hey its just my opinion bro! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
user picture

Member for

16 years 11 months
Permalink

Hi GD folks, well, I'd like to replace this specific one CD that circulated around 2001 or so....As many of you know there were two gaps in the legendary Cornell show from 77 .... one in the begininng of the show on "minglewood blues" and the other in " lazy lightning>supplication" Apparently, there was a master cassette source that was run by Betty or somebody on the crew that has a soundboard patch option since that music was run and wasn't sourced off the reels... so, with all the crazy re-mastering that has happened for example the neat "matrix" sources with aud patches, etc. ... Why didn't somebody patch with a soundboard master cassette? There's not too much lacking but with really good software a engineer could EQ and level out the difference really well.... has anybody seen this one CDR floating around , and if so , please seed it - so we can finally get rid of the aud patches that circulate so much on this show.... sincerely, Ursa Minor http://www.myspace.com/donnieloeffler "the warm wet world of analog audio"
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

I am going to seed a multi-part 79 vine, the best shows from Donna/Keith's final tour, early Brent, Fall, etc. I do not have the time to convert all of these to WAV. So what I was wondering, what would people think if I converted one show per part (probably 4 shows per part) and asked the first three persons to convert one show each? So the first 3 people would have to do FLAC/SHN.
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

I would be willing to convert a show to .wav and add it in.... are people anxious for the wav files instead of the flac/shn?? I know Oroboros wants .wav....I guess there are others too.... Want to separate them out and keep the one lossless vine and then do 2 shows per .wav vine? Just throwing out an idea.... Thanks for all of this wonderful music!! I am now finallly being able to pay back a bit... with reseeds.... and I am happy to do it!! Raymond
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

Hey all.... I have a vine here for Birdsong who is next... and I don't have an address.... did I read that he was on an extended vacation for 5 weeks? Couldn't find that post if I did... can anyone send me his address?? Hate to hold this one.... the May 1981 Vine thats just getting started from JStrawinColorado.... PM me if you know.... thought for sure I had it but I don't.... Thanks. Raymond
user picture

Member for

15 years 5 months
Permalink

I'll help out with wav conversion if you want to send out wav... Although its been nice having some lower postage lately! :-) Thanks again for all the 70's stuff dstache!!!! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
user picture

Member for

16 years 4 months
Permalink

that MarkintheDark and I planned on vining before his disappearance. The Talking Heads was the first (does anybody know if that got mailed?). Some of the others included Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, David Bowie, and some more Pink Floyd. Has anyone heard from him at all?
user picture

Member for

15 years 5 months
Permalink

I am a little surprised it has not happened already ... but I can seed the 3 Furthur shows if there is interest?? "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
user picture

Member for

17 years
Permalink

I'll be the first one on it if possible.
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

Hell Yea!! That would be great! Raymond
user picture

Member for

15 years 5 months
Permalink

Ok cool I'll do it then! "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

anything about DaveC?Just noticed he was next on 2 vines.... one was posted as sent to him.... the other was ready to go out to him but wasn't posted as sent. One was Erickat's Glen Falls 82 vine all the way back to the end of April.... the other was JStraw from Colo's Late August 80 Vine from 5-6 weeks ago. Hoping they are not lost! Just curious.... Raymond
user picture

Member for

17 years
Permalink

He's the next on ABB at Beacon. Any news somebody?
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

I've always found him to be reliable, even did a trade or two with him. I doubt he was the one who killed the 82 vine.
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

This one is apparently on its way to me....complete. Marye has frozen the forum....due to the new Winterland release. In order to keep the vine moving, I can remove those shows and reburn that one DVD.... and then continue the vine. With that being said, I can do anything else as well.... so let me know what you all think. As always.... I am deeply appreciative of the efforts many have made to keep this vineyard vibrant and fruitful.... Thanks!! Raymond
user picture

Member for

17 years
Permalink

I think the best way to go forward is to simply remove the three shows, re-burn the DVD that they were on, and pass it on. "That path is for, your steps alone."
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 7 months
Permalink

Hi Gang, I never received the Glens Falls vine - I just replied to Raymond though, that I recently moved and there may have been a delay, as there was for the Aug 80 vine (which I did receive and is ready to go out - I will find that page and IM the person next on that vine). I also have the May/July/Aug 81 vine ready to go, so at least I know THOSE vines reached me. I will get up to date on all relevant pages today. And I will keep on the lookout for Glens Falls, but honestly, I son't know where that one is....
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

14 years 10 months
Permalink

i agree remove the three show and move the vine on. i think i have all three shows from SBD on cassette tape. us old tapers aren't "old and in the way".
user picture

Member for

15 years 11 months
Permalink

Boy, I missed a lot of good stuff. "And I love the life I live And I'm gonna live the life I love"
user picture

Member for

15 years 11 months
Permalink

Derek, me, and a few others put out a late 79' part one and two (lovin rhino vine)vine about a year ago, and the quality of the the recordings of these shows is so so. They are also MP3 from wav. Anyone interested in sourcing lossless better quality versions of these shows? and reseeding? These shows just slay.......Dstache? "And I love the life I live And I'm gonna live the life I love"
user picture

Member for

17 years
Permalink

new version just posted welcome back Birdsong!
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

Yeah, I am going to circulate the run of shows from late Oct, easily the high point of 1979. That will probably be the next "best of 79" vine I seed. It should be posted in a week or two.
user picture

Member for

17 years
Permalink

DSB of 18th Sept now appearing :-)More to come apparently
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

This Vine is in my possession.... my plan is to burn new discs which will not include the recently released Winterland shows. This will take the vine from 4 DVDs to 3. After I finish that burn I can post the new order of discs here for Marye's approval (?) so we can keep this vine growing. Is that approrpriate and acceptable? Please advise. Thanks all. Raymond
user picture

Member for

17 years 1 month
Permalink

There seems to be general agreement on this so if Raymond sends me the updated contents I can post that and open the comments back up and the vine can reflourish... Thanks all. And welcome back birdsong!
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

A 1980 acoustic vine would be great. You could probably fit all the acoustic sets on 2 DVDs. It would break down into too many CDs but WAV files could be vined in parts for the FLACless. Many of the electric sets are supposed to be forgettable so I would be more than satisfied with just the acoustic sets. I'd still like to see the rest of the Brent 1990 shows vined. I was pleasantly surprised with the 1984 shows that were recently vined and would like to acquire more of the GOOD ONES (there are many clunkers from that year and I have no need for them). A discerning seeder is required here, haha. As for me, I will work on getting more of 1979 out there. I have the entire year. I vined the shows I thought were the best from Donna & Keith's final tour plus some requests from Beggar's Tomb. I will vine the best of from the fall tour (the late Oct run, duh) and the early Brent shows once I listen to them.
user picture
Default Avatar

Member for

16 years 2 months
Permalink

I'd love some tasty Acoustic Dead....and yes, PLEASE on the Brent shows. "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."
user picture

Member for

15 years 3 months
Permalink

started by dstache and crew 1977 Lossless: Part 3 (6/4-10/14) avatar On August 9th, 2009 dstache said: Part 3 of this vine is ready to go. Multiple sources for many of the shows in this period will be included. Thanks again to jsfc, Hippy, Pomo1, Estim8ed, Arkdeadhead, CB, Rick and Richard for all their help! Sources: (Revised Sept. 2009 due to official release of Winterland '77. Buy it! ) 77-06-04.bertrando.goodbear.3417 77-06-04.fob.menke.motb.0096.97183 77-09-28.95952.sbd.cantor-crouch-diebert-gmb 77-09-29.sbd.cantor-crouch-diebert-gmb 77-10-01.sbd.crouch-diebert-gmb.86234 77-10-02.sbd.cantor-crouch-diebert-gmb.86354 77-10-06.sbd.gorinsky.5804 77-10-07.s2.sbd.miller.80753 77-10-09.sbd.miller.xxxxx 77-10-11.sbd.miller.87514 77-10-12.sbd.cotsman.19291 77-10-14.sbd.tetzeli.34260
user picture

Member for

15 years 5 months
Permalink

Namely the 1980 halloween run in NY plus 10/3/80. I just didn't know if I could vine these because some of them are on Reckoning??? "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
user picture

Member for

16 years 9 months
Permalink

Since Reckoning is a compilation, I believe it is ok to vine the shows from which it was taken. Anyone have any more of the shows? The acoustic sets should all fit on 2 DVDs so it would be nice to do them all at once. But just those shows would be fine too.