Grateful Dead Really Bad Scenes

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August 2, 2007 - 11:54am

128 replies

marye

Joined:
May 26, 2007

In today's Today in Deadhead History, aud mentions a show she never wants to revisit, even on tape, because the scene was so ugly. And I think the same is true of various shows for a lot of us. Thug security. Gate crashers. Drunken concertgoers puking on your bare feet. You know. Bad scenes. Post here.

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December 1, 2007 - 9:19pm

#111

Salmon Will

Joined:
June 4, 2007

Go watch Altamont then

Fair enough Marye; but you can always watch The Stones' movie about Altamont if you want a history lesson on bad scenes. I think Jerry was even in it briefly describing the scene as having some sort of particulate matter in the air. Definitely a history lesson to be learned for sure, but I always thought hippies to be far more intelligent than to repeat the faux pas of their elders. I guess time has proven that theory to be invalid as well. Here's to learning from history, and not repeating it!
December 1, 2007 - 1:59pm

#112

marye

Joined:
May 26, 2007

William...

I think one reason for this topic is the time-honored Those Who Fail To Learn From History Are Doomed To Repeat It. Another is that people like to talk about it. I don't think it's good to obsess about the bad stuff, but I don't think sweeping it under the rug serves any purpose either. It WASN'T all wonderful--for example, by general agreement Red Rocks was as good as it gets on every front, and yet when I was there in 1987 one of the first things I saw was Barry Fey's goons dragging a bunch of hippies out of their van and starting to beat them because, apparently, they weren't zippy enough about showing their tickets to get into the parking lot.
December 1, 2007 - 10:02am

#113

Jodester

Joined:
June 14, 2007

Once upon a time...

Yeah, we were certainly judged on our looks and our lifestyle in general. At least the trippy looking ones. I once had a cop say to me that he didn't understand why we had those little bags around our necks and friendship bracelets etc... as it was a dead give away that we were holding. He said he always knew he would find something on anyone who dressed like that. The getting out of control thing is a bit complicated. Gatecrashing was mostly done by people who were not tourheads. As was littering. The increase in heroin use in the early nineties by tourheads was a big problem. Gatecrashing seemed like a reaction to the constant harrassment by the authorities. Take Pittsburg in 92' as an example. There was big harassment of vendors all day before the show. The vendors feed the crowds etc... and were a big reason so many came to shows. Vendors (of all sorts) were a big and unacknowledged part of the success the Grateful Dead enjoyed during those days. When the locals come into a lot where there is police (or whoever) harrassing the tourheads they feel the vibe massively. When u see cops cracking heads of kind folks for selling a bag or whatever, u want to do something! It makes a bad scene and the vibe can easily turn into a rebellion of sorts with many going over the fence or breaking it down. Rebellion takes many forms. People want to feel free. We shouldn't be surprised when young people especially react in that way. Many of the less experienced heads even would have had the impression that the Dead would have given a wink towards gate crashing in the spirit of shared anarchy (as I heard many gatecrashers say at SPAC in 88'). Better communication might have helped. Most of the harrassment from venue owners or cops etc.., was prejudice. Trying to make some big thing out of whatever. Irvine in 88' with the so called riot for example. There was no riot! I was there, right in the middle of the so called riot. Banning camping didn't work. It was just an undeserved kick in the ass for tourheads and the locals still trashed shit. The Dead organisation should have been thinking big at this point. They should have organised their own series of festivals across the US every year where they controlled the venue. In a farmers fields, for instance. Lots of mini-Woodstocks across the US. Plus extra European tours, or world tours even. Plus the normal venues that were ok with the way things had previously been. If Bill Graham was serious about keeping the scene clean I don't know why he didn't have someone from the scene who he gave thirty tickets to who organised a clean up crew. There were folks who did this but they were only given garbage bags to my knowledge. And from how I remember it the heads were behind that, not the band organisation. The heroin use was weird. It destroyed the scene. The price in the Bronx went from ten a bag to five as the avaliability increased. It was a problem in the ghetto as well as the scene. A couple of shady characters popped up in the scene distributing that shit. I do wonder if the man was behind that. The timing was pretty strange. Just as there was a second flowering around the time of the anniversary of the summer of love. Are you kind?
December 1, 2007 - 9:34am

#114

Salmon Will

Joined:
June 4, 2007

Why re-live bad scenes?

I don't know why someone would want to post this topic. Shouldn't we be remembering the good times and scenes, and forgetting about the bad? I know I had my run-ins with Johnny along the way, but I try to put it past me. Perhaps that's my own way of heeling, but I see no benefit to this particular discussion.
December 1, 2007 - 6:49am

#115

Steve-O

Joined:
June 4, 2007

Looks

I believe it was the way we looked more than the way we acted in the 80's, but in the 90's, I believe we as a whole got way out of control. Gate crashers and so on started putting a damper on the whole Peace thing.
November 27, 2007 - 12:20am

#116

c_c

Joined:
June 4, 2007

the problem

heaven knows, cops have a fucking tough job to do out in the streets and highways of the good old US of A. The mounted police are trained specifically for crowd control and it is one of the toughest things to do in general. anyone who has ever been in New Orleans during Mardi Gras knows what I am talking about. but I think the problem with most cops at shows, mounted or otherwise, I think they could never see the difference between a crowd of heads and a crowd of Metallica fans. or the rap fans, or the Monster Truck folks or Hockey fans who would get drunk and be much more prone to violence - misbehavior (on a case by case basis of course) than any deadhead crowd. rent a cops are a totally different story, unfortunately. ) -;
November 26, 2007 - 11:45am

#117

gypsy soul

Joined:
June 4, 2007

horses at philly

vaguely remember a lot of horses at different shows. but the jfk(last show there ever) i was feeling good and kept asking the pigs if i could pet the horses. got some nasty ass looks for sure, but did take some pictures of the poorly treated animals too. also, anyone do the further fests of 98 or after at MONTAGE MOUNTAIN. there was some bad shit there too. i think it was 99 or 2000, the horses were not happy to be there. pulled a young brother out from underneath one of them just in time. he was about to be trampled waiting for a shuttle down the mountain. not a good scene and i know a lot of heads dissed the place soon afterwards. it really gets GESTAPO there for most any show. nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile
October 28, 2007 - 4:39am

#118

c_c

Joined:
June 4, 2007

seems like...

seems like the daze back in again from the wild wild west... ) -; who is with me on that one? peace.
October 28, 2007 - 4:34am

#119

archure

Joined:
June 14, 2007

Go Vegetarian Vegan, much less trouble

Go Vegetarian Vegan, no meat, no dairy, then you got less bad karma. Life can be heaven or heck, depending upon what you do, what goes around, comes around; At least I try. Things are much better now that I am back to being a vegetarian, and better yet a vegan. Hey, I know what I need, another....... But if you do go Vegetarian Vegan, make certain you get at least 100 to 300 mg of all the B Vitamins (and at least 25,000 mcg of B12), PER DAY, and 1000 IU of Vit D, 500 mg Vit C, for Vit A drink a pint of carrot juice, some multi minerals, and 400 IU of Vit E. But VEGETARIANS must get Vit B suplements (B1, B2, B3, B6, B12), else they get real depressed (lack of Vit B especially), as its hard to find in the Vegetarian world (a bit in seaweed, and bananas, but not enough). It was fashionable to go vegetarian in the 1930's, the latest craze, but many became very depressed. And also I like to take Melatonin, around 15 mg before bed. OH, and ballancing your pH with good quality WATER between meals, can restore you pH by neutralizing all those low pH acids you consume, like orange juice, soda, alcohol, tomatoes, carrots, meat and dairy products, its all dangerous because its all low pH, how can your body tollerate and bunch of acids you feed it? Water to the rescue. Then your less apt to get a bunch of trash from people. Example, I was a cab driver for a while in Las Vegas, and I would drink some coffee (low pH acidic) for my first ride, and they would bug me "driver why are you going this way", "faster driver", "were stopped and the meter is still running driver", then after the first ride, I would drink some water (high pH netralizes acids, like the coffee) with a water bottle cap full of baking soda (real high pH, and cheap, and good for you), mix that up, and the next ride was a charm, "oh driver you good, thanks driver", SO, WHAT YOU CONSUME, IS HOW THE WORLD TREATS YOU. Serve more high pH stuff at Dead Concerts; hey, and pass out B Vitamins, of course a little bit of acid is ok, it just takes a little bit, to go along way, just ballance it out. Music for the New Millennium by ARCHURE reg tmrk www.archure.net
October 28, 2007 - 2:06am

#120

c_c

Joined:
June 4, 2007

Hi Stella,I'd like to point

Hi Stella, I'd like to point out that that sticker design was not original, I do not know who designed it, but I copied it using a silk screen and made the stickers myself. (that's why they look kind of sloppy) muchos kudos and thankx to whoever designed it, it kept the bus on the road. all I had to do was walk around turning the sticker right side up and then upside down to show that you could read grateful dead even when it was inverted; those suckers sold themselves. I traded a bunch of them, too, usually for food that people were cooking up or beers in the lean years... one kind of surreal thing I remember about the MSG shows, was how the cops would be out on fatboy Harleys, out in force-- what seemed at the time like 50 bikes, driving around and around the 'round' and "round" garden again and again before or after shows. peace.

In today's Today in Deadhead History, aud mentions a show she never wants to revisit, even on tape, because the scene was so ugly. And I think the same is true of various shows for a lot of us. Thug security. Gate crashers. Drunken concertgoers puking on your bare feet. You know. Bad scenes. Post here.

A draft...

How does this read friends? To the District Attorney of Los Angeles County: Dear Sir or Madam, I was witness to a murder by Inglewood Police at a Grateful Dead concert on December 10, 1989 at the annex parking lot of the Inglewood Forum. The concert had just ended. The crowd was dispersing, but there was severe gridlock in the parking lot. I was sitting in the bed of my friend's truck, waiting for him to catch up and drive us home. Parked right next to us was another vehicle. Sitting on the back of the vehicle was a young man also waiting for a friend with the keys. Then we observed the police van approaching, fronted by a brace of officers in riot gear, face shields and batons, in formation. They were screaming threats and telling people to "Get the fuck out of here!". They were NOT "escorting us off the grounds". One of the officers broke from formation and approached, menacingly, the boy on the car next to me. "I said get the fuck out of here!", he shouted. The boy, stunned, quietly attempted to tell the officer that his friend had the carkeys. The officer snapped. He shouted "What did you say to me?". The boy again, now quite terrified, attempted to explain he didn't have the keys to the vehicle, and was waiting for his friend. At that point the officer lunged at the boy, grabbed him by the hair, and viciously started beating him with his baton. Other officers saw the commotion and joined in the beating. It was a frenzy. The boy was unconcious and lying on the ground.He NEVER resisted. He wasn't acting erratically, nor was he in any way non-compliant. He was sobbing and limp. Then the sobbing stopped and officers tossed his limp body into a van. They then approached me, again screaming "Get the fuck outta here or you're next!". At that moment, my friend arrived with the keys and we jumped into the truck. The officer started banging on the driver's side window with his club, again screaming "Get the fuck out of here NOW!". We were boxed in by traffic, and could not move the vehicle, and said through the closed window to the officer "Where are we supposed to go?". At this point the officer glared at us and stormed away. They killed that boy. He wasn't high. He didn't resist. He did not in any way instigate anything. It was clear their intent was to terrorize us, and they succeeded. They were clearly on a mission to clean house at all cost. Patrick Shanahan was an example, slain in front of us to tell us all that we were not welcome in Inglewood. This murderous act and flagrant abuse of authority cannot and must not go unpunished. I anticipate your reply. Sincerely, Evan Schechter

ev

two things: put the commas and periods inside the quotation marks. I'm an editor in real life, and you don't want people to use some silly punctuation issue as a reason to dismiss what you said. also, though journalism has clearly fallen on evil days, I'd send a cc to the LA Times (city desk, probably) and LA Weekly and any of the alternative papers, which might serve to light a fire under the DA. Other than that it's just exactly perfect as far as I'm concerned, and I'm only sorry the occasion exists for you to write it. I don't know if you're still in touch with your buddy who drove the car, but if so, it might be good to get in touch with him, give him a heads up, and include that info in the letter if he's willing.

Commas and such...

Could you cite an example Marye? Commas inside the quotes following the exclamation points? Unfortuately, my buddy arrived after Patrick was carted off, so he can only attest to the general aggressiveness of the officers. And yes, I will cc it to anyone and everyone I can. You, or anyone else here, wouldn't by chance have contact info for the Shanahans, would you? I also considered saying I would testify, but I didn't want to sound litigious. Thoughts? Thanks, Ev

marye's quick edit

(throwing in a couple paragraph breaks also, and fixing spelling of "unconscious," which I missed previously.) I was witness to a murder by Inglewood Police at a Grateful Dead concert on December 10, 1989 at the annex parking lot of the Inglewood Forum. The concert had just ended. The crowd was dispersing, but there was severe gridlock in the parking lot. I was sitting in the bed of my friend's truck, waiting for him to catch up and drive us home. Parked right next to us was another vehicle. Sitting on the back of the vehicle was a young man also waiting for a friend with the keys. Then we observed the police van approaching, fronted by a brace of officers in riot gear, face shields and batons, in formation. They were screaming threats and telling people to "Get the fuck out of here!" They were NOT "escorting us off the grounds." One of the officers broke from formation and approached, menacingly, the boy on the car next to me. "I said get the fuck out of here!" he shouted. The boy, stunned, quietly attempted to tell the officer that his friend had the carkeys. The officer snapped. He shouted "What did you say to me?" The boy again, now quite terrified, attempted to explain he didn't have the keys to the vehicle, and was waiting for his friend. At that point the officer lunged at the boy, grabbed him by the hair, and viciously started beating him with his baton. Other officers saw the commotion and joined in the beating. It was a frenzy. The boy was unconscious and lying on the ground. He NEVER resisted. He wasn't acting erratically, nor was he in any way non-compliant. He was sobbing and limp. Then the sobbing stopped and officers tossed his limp body into a van. They then approached me, again screaming "Get the fuck outta here or you're next!" At that moment, my friend arrived with the keys and we jumped into the truck. The officer started banging on the driver's side window with his club, again screaming "Get the fuck out of here NOW!" We were boxed in by traffic, and could not move the vehicle, and said through the closed window to the officer "Where are we supposed to go?" At this point the officer glared at us and stormed away.

personally

I think it's appropriate to say you are willing to testify in a court of law in this matter. (Indeed, I'm trying to think how you can make this letter a sworn affidavit.) This is a matter for the criminal courts, so the issue of litigiousness per se doesn't come into it, though of course it would be an issue in a wrongful death civil suit by the Shanahans. Any California attorneys are cordially invited to correct me, as I am not a lawyer, no way.

Thanks!

Thanks for the spell check! I'll paste it back into my draft. And yeah, I'll swear by it. How do I make it so? Anybody?

I also added:

"I absolutely will testify to this under oath. This letter has been cc'd to the Shanahan family and local and nationwide news sources." Sound good?

According to the LA Times:

"According to police, an officer on patrol after the concert on Dec. 10, 1989, spotted Shanahan standing rigidly with a blank stare on his face. The officer said Shanahan failed to respond to questions and dropped to his knees, yelling and laughing to himself. The policeman said when Shanahan resisted efforts to arrest him, backup officers were called and he was wrestled to the ground. Police said when Shanahan broke free, one of the officers "placed him in a carotid control hold." Police were en route to the station with Shanahan when they noticed he had stopped breathing. They took him to Daniel Freeman Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead." BULLSHIT! He wasn't standing. He was sitting on the back of a car. He wasn't "yelling or laughing to himself". He responded clearly. In fact, there were no questions. He was ordered to "Get the fuck out of here!" "Backup officers were called"??? Nobody "called" anybody! They leapt on him in a matter of seconds. He NEVER "broke free" the officer dragged him off of the car and beat the fucking shit out of him, and his pals joined in. There was no attempt to settle him down, because he wasn't riled up. And he didn't die "in route", he was dead on the scene. I might not be a doctor, but I know dead when I see it. And they made no effort to revive him. They threw him in the truck like a sack of potatoes and went back to threatening other concertgoers, myself included. This bullshit spin of lies has me fuming!!!

ev

I'm all out of advice pretty much and don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you're doing an important and righteous thing. I wish I knew the local LA media better.

notarized

(Indeed, I'm trying to think how you can make this letter a sworn affidavit.) don't know about that unless you go to the DA in person, like if they request it, but you can get the letter notarized, meaing you signed it and wrote it. the letter is good. thanks, man. please keep us informed. keep in mind, this is 20 years old, it will take a bit to get them to move on it. hopefully someone will take action. seems from that NY times story, they had some witnesses, but don't know if the family ever tried to get this into civil court or not... peace.

They settled

Settlement OKd in Student's Death - Law: Inglewood will pay $750,000 to resolve suit by Fountain Valley family. Patrick Shanahan died of injuries suffered as he struggled with police after concert.California | Local | ERIC MALNIC | February 3, 1994 The Inglewood City Council has agreed to pay $750,000 to settle a lawsuit by the Orange County family of a 19-year-old college student who died from neck injuries suffered as he struggled with police after a Grateful Dead concert at the Forum in December, 1989. Inglewood police said they used a carotid artery chokehold--a controversial form of forceful restraint banned by many law enforcement agencies because of concerns about serious injury--to control Patrick Shanahan after he resisted attempts to arrest him. So is there a point in pressing this further? I mean, can they try the case twice? Now I REALLY feel like hell for not speaking out sooner.

settled

settled, means they will not, (the DA) probably can not do anything else. the important thing man, you were willing to do something now. the important thing, man, you WANTED to set this right. there is no proper 'amount of money' that can ever replace a lost / murdered child... but those families agreed to it, so that is that. peace.

no need

and, no need to feel like you SHOULD have spoken up sooner... the fact that you were williing to get involved NOW is highly respectable. peace.

So

So that's it then. Well, I'm gonna send that email to the DA and the papers. They can read it, choke on it, ignore it, whatever. Thanks brothers and sisters. I don't feel better, but I feel less alone, which I guess is better. Peace, Ev

I sent it

To the DA with the following added sentence: "I realise this case was settled in 1994, but I was not there to speak to what I saw."

good idear.

good idear, man. cool, send it off, maybe it will get some replay in the news and more folks can become aware of that tragedy. peace.

I am not a california lawyer

but, I believe settling a "civil" matter with the municipality for the acts of its employees, does not preclude a criminal charge against the individuals committing the crime. Admittedly, the settlement will make it more unlikely that the DA will go after the rogue cops at this stage. However, if you feel the need or desire to contact the press and the DA, you should do so. Peace, "One watch by night, one watch by day If you get confused, listen to the music play"

pomo's right...

Civil and Criminal are def two separate judgements and are not in any way subject to "Double Jeopardy"..... "In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head. Listen to the river sing sweet songs, to rock my soul."

Evster2012

Very good of you to do this and strength to you as this does or doesn't go anywhere. This is so sad. Peace If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake

yup, pomo's right

what was settled was a civil suit. As Joe already pointed out, there is no statute of limitations on murder. That's a criminal law matter, entirely separate from the civil suit (classic example of this in the other direction: OJ Simpson).

I say send those jerks to prison

A civil lawsuit does not mean that justice has been served. Only a criminal trial can bring that about. Money cannot fix things, a young man died and those bastards who did it are still walking on our streets. I do commend you Evster, speaking out is not an easy thing to do. It feels like it is just you vs "them" but we are all here behind you 100%. "Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"

admiration

I could not believe what I read in your first post. Its absolutely terrifying that a person can be beaten to death by the cops for going to a concert. Good on you for speaking up and please try not to blame yourself. None of us know how we might have reacted to what you witnessed. I am just full of admiration that you have found a way to speak out about this. I wish you all the very best.

Thanks friends

I don't know if the DA will take up the cause and make a case. I certainly haven't received any reply. I must say, the thought of getting on that witness stand in front of those cops is terrifying, but I will speak for all of us if given the chance. I will speak for Patrick. Knowing I have your support and good vibes means everything. Let's hope the DA realizes their responsibility. I'll do my part. Again, does anyone have any contact info for the Shanahans? I'd really like to let them know what I sent to the DA.

if i'm not mistaken

there is no statute of limitations on murder, premeditated or otherwise....the swine should be locked up with someone they sent to prison....while i think we can all admit that not every cop on the street is like these bastards, i'm sure we can agree these animals are just that....animals...and THAT is insulting ANIMALS

it's crap like this

that makes me refuse to give up my 2nd amendment rights....rotten assholes

well

well, at least you can try to find out some of the terms of the settlement. while a civil settlement is certainly different from a criminal settlement, crafty DAs or shyster lawyers often preclude one or the other in the settlement agreement... meaning, no further action, criminal or civil may be taken. also, who knows if the exact settlement terms have been 'sealed' so you may run into a stone wall if that is the case in this case. and/or who knows if those cops ever actually 'admitted' doing something wrong. some settlements exclude an admission of responsibilty / guilt, in part done, so that the perps won't have that 'evidence' against them in a future proceeding, be it civil or criminal. anyway, shoot off some emails, please try to get some press involved. if you are in the LA area, I think it would be pretty easy to find a KIND, investigative reporter who might have more access to info and could, at the very least, publicize this murder more. the reporters hook, could be recent pig brutality / atrocities / violence / abuse of power in Chicago on the tour this year. or if there were any arrests at the LA show... an interview with you, would be all a reporter might need to file a story, if they use the background of the 2009 tour to make it 'topical' oh, and mary, I reminded myself why I have heard different amounts about the Katz family settlement, it was probably the case that the family ended up with a million, and the lawyer took the 500 large, as a typical 33% fee... and the total was 1.5 mil. I am still asking around to see if I can get more details about that Byrne murder, if anyone actually faced charges or whatever. as I said before, thanks for doing the right thing, I respect you for that, man. peace.

Well we could..

barrage the Los Angeles DA with emails pushing my point in their face. Anybody who wants to send along my email is more than welcome to. Ram it down their throats. A newspaper you think of? Anything! Jump on in! Copy it, send it to everyone you know! Push it! I WILL stand by every word.

ummm

ummm, personally I don't think a barrage of emails to the DA is the best way to go about this, especially since you are the only new witness here. a polite, clear, firm letter like the one you wrote, from the witness, is best in my opinion. like I said in the last post, the whole thing may not be possible to be pursued in legal channels... civil or criminal. the settlement may be sealed, and they can't even explain exactly why nobody can pursue it... even a ton of emails to a reporter or to papers or TV media would not be so effective because they have nothing / no one to follow up with. Dear editor, I heard from some guy on an internet forum that he saw a murder by cops back in 1989... ** wouldn't work. Keep in mind, the papers DID report on this when it was timely news. so an email, from you the witness, to an investigative reporter, news editor, city desk editor, could get some stories written. Where is Lou Grant when you need him? i don't know anyone offhand, you could search online... maybe a paper's homepage would have reporters/editors listed. LA Times could work. you are the only one who can bring fresh info into this as a previously unheard witness. see my point? ************* my initial comments about this was without knowing that the case had been settled... been thinking deeply about this now, as I have changed this post and re-written and taken stuff out and put it back for about an hour now. and... i really do not mean to be flip flopping here, but, I would also consider the feelings of the family very carefully; their private grief... the family did settle this, if there was some other avenue, i guess they would have taken it back then... there were witnesses, according to the newspapers... I will not even try to speak for them, any more than i can imagine the pain and hell they went through losing a son, but maybe, just maybe, they do not want the murder of their son back in their lives 20 years on... I don't know... I'm totally torn by this... that said, they may be seeking real justice. who can say? feel free to disagree, and others who want to send off emails, please do what you think is right. just my opinions here, and in the previous posts. please do what you think is best. peace.

Feelings of the family

You have me thinking Joe. Is it better to drag them through this? I'm preparing to send my letter to the press in hopes of generating some interest, but now you've got me thinking. Man I wish I could get in contact with the family. Would they want this? Also, can one witness beat the cops collective story? I know where I was when it happened, and frankly there really wasn't anyone else with the view I had. The other witnesses were screened by the line of cops. I think I was the only one with a front row view.

yeah

yeah, man. it is a big dilema. sorry I flip flopped, but when we think about the big picture, it does get pretty fucking complicated. when I first read your story, before we heard it was settled, my initial reaction was shock and anger and the need for action to seek justice, or at least more publicity of the story. actually, when i first read your story, I didn't notice that this was from 1989... (I was never good at them reading comprehension tests,) anyway, I re-read your account, noticed this was not from the tour this spring, and after I looked into it a bit, found that NY Times story... if you sent the media letters, they would probably want to contact the family to get their reaction, etc... I don't know how I would feel if i was a family member of Patrick and I got a phone call 20 years on about this -- can't even imagine, whether the phone call was from the press or from a witness. if I speculate a bit more, the family may get totally bummed out at you for not coming forward back then. or they may be glad, and want you to testify (again, like i said a few times before; if any further legal action is even possible) who can say how the family will feel? right now, alls I can say is, I don't know what is best. any advice I might offer now would sound like a banal platitude because I just don't know... where are PK, badger, Oroboros, lilly, rider, mary, hal et al (to name a few) and the other smart, empathetic guys and gals here? input at this point would certainly be appreciated. peace.

I guess

I guess at this point, considering what you've said, that while the family has settled the civil case, do we go after the cops? I wish I could speak with them. Know if they want it. On the other hand, I saw a fucking murder. Do the family's wishes trump the bigger picture? I feel for them with all of my heart. Truly. But isn't it our duty to bury the bastards? I mean, people have been taking apart the JFK assassination for decades. Doesn't Patrick Shanahan deserve the same passion. The same justice? What makes him less important? This is what goes through my head when I think "Nah, leave it." No cantact info for the family so far I guess.

"On the other hand, I saw a fucking murder."

"On the other hand, I saw a fucking murder." good point. I hear you man. whatever you decide to do, whatever happens, please keep us informed.

anyways

anyways, what kept you quiet about this until now? gotta ask. been curious about that, I apologise in advance if you don't want to explain. peace.

No prob Joe

I guess I just buried it. Joining this forum brought back who I was (the Deadhead I used to be). Then it came flooding back. If that makes any sense.

It scared me

I crawled into a ball and never let myself face it. I buried it. Like waking from a nightmare, after a few minutes, it goes away. I ran from it that night hoping to get out of there unharmed, and I guess I just kept running. It was too intense. I pretended it didn't happen. It was too real. I had to block it out. Now I feel like I must speak before it dies with me. Not that I'm terminally ill, and not meaning to be dramatic, but I'm old enough that it doesn't scare me anymore. I'm not scared anymore. I guess that's it.

makes perfect sense

makes perfect sense man, I think that is a natural HUMAN reaction / defense mechanizm for seeing / experiencing such tragic / traumatic shit.

Hey I'm empathetic too :-)

This is a tough one for sure. Like I said in my earlier post, no one will ever know what it was like that night, all of the frightening circumstances of that night and Evster you shouldn't feel guilty. Police brutality is scary (well police in general are scary) and if you are younger which you had to be 20 years ago :-) it is very scary to confront the police. I just want you to know that we understand that.But in my opinion if my son/daughter were murdered and there were no witnesses 20 years ago (I am assuming there couldn't have been a witness otherwise those bastards would be in prison??) but one showed up 20 years later... I think I'd want to hear that witnesses story. Would I ask why didn't you come forward earlier ... yes ... again this is hard to say without being in the person's shoes, I think I'd be a little upset but I would definitely want to hear your (the witness) account of what really happened that night. Again we don't know all the circumstances (or very little) of the case and the settlement so that makes it very difficult to come up with a rationale decision. Thats the difficult part of this. "Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"

I can't speak for the Shanahans

but I do know that if someone, anyone murdered one of my children, no amount of cash compensation, official whitewashing or coerced or induced "agreement" would ever sate my appetite to see the responsible party(ies) brought to justice. Requiring that the employers of these criminals pay a fine for the actions of their employees in no way remedies, mitigates or begins to hold to individual account those directly responsible. And to my way of thinking, if someone willfully and intentionally murders another, their life is forfeit. They have set the standard for themselves by their own actions. But maybe that's just me. On the larger scale, we ultimately get the government that we deserve. Jefferson was not wrong. "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." As members of a society, it is our responsibility to stand up and speak out against abuse of authority in the hands of instruments of governmental authority. The fundamental premise of democracy is that the government serves the population by consent, not fiat. Ultimately we are all in charge as long as we remember to be in charge. And if we fail to do so, we have no one to blame but ourselves for the condition we find ourselves in. It is every person's responsibility, and the very least we owe each other. Conversation is always more interesting than recitation, so speak your mind and not someone else's.

You are right Mr Pid

I'd devote my life and go to the ends of the world to bring about justice for my murdered child. "Escaping through the lily fields, I came across an empty space. It rainbow then exploded, left a bus stop in its place. The bus come by and I got on, thats when it all began. It was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of the bus to never ever land"

How many other times & places

did security and/or police kill people at Greateful Dead concerts? I would suspect the number is more than 2. This doesn't even count bad, traumatic head injuries. It always make me think of the days we used to protest nonviolently and watch those horse cops line up and start chomping on (I guess) candy. Somebody once told me that it would put them in a mad, raging sugar rush -- which explains partly why they go so insane on peaceful people. Maybe it wasn't candy though. Maybe it was that nazi stormtrooper speed. Anyway my heart goes out to those who suffered and if you can find it in your heart to forgive the healing goes a lot faster. It is true though, bro. You don't won't to die, yourself, without talking this stuff through and getting to a place where it is OK. Just my opinion not having suffered this myself. Peace be with you.

good advice

first, please don't nobody think that I don't think you are not empathetic because you wasN7t in that brief list... really i just wanted an excuse to say: "Hal et al" ( -: and 'et al', means everybody else. ************* well, I been asking around with some folks outside our community (non-deadheads) and from some within... publiclly, many have spoken up, and privately (for whatever reason) some folks have shared some of their thoughts about this situation with me directly. I'll digress for a moment, maybe repeat myself a bit to intro, at first reading of Evrest's story, I immediately had a rather stereo typical visceral, cc reaction, seek justice, get thhem bad pigs who killed our brother, and then, as I explained in later posts, didnt have all the facts, and as more info seeped in, naturally, I kind of flipped flopped in my own mind as I considered other issues and thought on it more. my experience in lawand wiith 'the law' is either from personal experience and/or trying to help folks who were the ones the cops falsely accused or falsely arrested. please understand, I ain't no lawyer at all, and the criminal law I learrned was either from sitting in on criminal law school classes (which kind of started as a goof-- when i was cruising past Peperdine, needed to use the mens, and met some co-ed who thought i should join her and go to her criminal law class lecture) and I done a lot of reading of law books when I had my own time, and that allowed me to help out our tribe when I could, adding to the short staffed public defenders advice, or digging up relevant precedents, and such -- --point is, I don't remember ever trying to help a witness; who her/himself was not the falsely accused or victim of police brutality. so, someone who I talked this story over, gave me some really common sense, wise, good advice I'd like to ppass on on: the first, I will mention now -- Evestr, seek advice from a real lawyer in California, and also, seek advice from some advocacy group or non-profit org. that helps victims or witnesses in California. ok, here is the cut and copy of a wise sage's words, this dude is not a lawyer, neither, but a real top notch guy who i gotten good advice from over the years on a variety of issues, another set of eyes looking at something often gets a new point of view: (not my words following, but advice idears i respect) > He (the witness) seems to be very clear about the facts of what he saw and such events tend to burn themselves into your brain. But I worry that any lawyer so inclined could totally discredit what he says (long time ago, were you high?, how could you id the cops responsible etc...) > > > > What to do. > > > > I think he has done the right thing in writing to the DA. > > > >. I think he needs to get some professional legal advice NOW. There must be some suitable citizens advice service or peoples' legal collective or something. Someone needs to find out the facts of the civil case and look at the evidence presented there and help the witness make a judgement about whether to proceed. I am not qualified to give the witness specific advice and I am not sure anyone is. I think people should all be careful about pushing him into a situation he might not be able to handle by himself. > > > > Till he does that (gets advice) I think he should leave the family in peace. By accepting the settlement they have accepted that the cops killed their kid. Even if the official story is that it was an 'accident', I am not sure anyone would ever actually believe that, but maybe they have found a way to deal with it all. There may in fact be nothing to gain by opening old wounds and achieving nothing. > > > > I think you and your DeadHeads should continue to give the witness as much support as you can, He's obviously hurting quite a lot about this. Even if it is not possible to bring the killers to justice, I hope you all can at least help him come to terms with it all and feel that speaking out, even if only amongst yourselves, was worth while. > > cc talking agin here: so,, folks, naturally i think we all need to keep helping our brother Evester out, and keep offereing more advice and more points of view, and naturally the decision to continue must come from Evester's heart.

That's what gets to me

I'm just one voice. I'm sure they (the police) have their ducks in a row, so it's "he said, they said". I'm just putting it out there. If they want to pick it up, I will stand my ground. That said, it's been a relief to speak here. Thank you for listening friends.

I think

we've heard from a lot of wise folks here, to which for the moment I have nothing to add but thanks.

this long link

this long link leads to a page that mentions Katz, but if you back pedal, it is actuall;y a pretty interesting collection of essays: http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=wFuE229iBwkC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=mur…

or this one

http://www.questia.com/library/book/perspectives-on-the-grateful-dead-c…

BRUTALLY ATTACKED AT WAKARUSA-JAW BROKEN IN 3 PLACES!

MySpace a place for friendsStatus: lrob (none)Mood: neutral (Update)Sorry! an unexpected error has occurred. This error has been forwarded to MySpace's technical group. People▼People MySpace Web Music Video Local ImagesPowered by Google HomeMail ▼ Inbox NotificationsComposeFriend RequestsSent MailSaved MailAddress BookProfile ▼ My ProfileEdit ProfileCustomize ProfileMy AppsMy BlogMy CommentsMy FavoritesMy PhotosMy PlaylistsMy VideosFriends ▼ My FriendsOnline FriendsActivity StreamStatus and MoodBulletinsBrowse PeopleFind FriendsInvite FriendsPeople You May KnowMusicVideoMore ▼ More on MySpaceApps GalleryClassifiedsEventsForumsGroupsLocalSchoolsTop BlogsIMMobileComedyGamesKaraokeMoviesMy AccountSign Out «Back to Bulletin Board Read Bulletin Show Bulletins I've Posted User has been banned Subject: UPDATE:ATTACK ON ME AT WAKARUSA:(jaw broken in 3 places) Body: THE MONEY CLIP IN the photograph on MY PROFILE PAGE http://www.myspace.com/legendaryrob IS ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT WAS STOLEN AT WAKARUSA. REWARD FOR ANY LEADS ON THE IDENTITY OF MY ATTACKER. (jaw broken in three places-attacker used nunchuks) REWARD FOR THE RETURN OF ANY OF THE STOLEN PROPERTY. (wallet, id, MONEY CLIP).anyone with information, PLEASE call (720) 838-6564 people involved MAY be in an older 'boxy' caprice with NM tags--the 'balloon' style design.REWARD FOR THE LICENCE PLATE #-IF YOU SEE THIS CAR IN LINE AT ROTHBURY, MILE HIGH, 10K, or elsewhere,--ratdog, what have you, PLEASE contact me at the above #, via myspace, or email me at vendingmachine@hotmail.com--should you come across any of my stolenbproperty, PLEASE call me. again, thank you for looking out. lrob. note, I hve had one surgery already, and at least one more is scheduled.dr says I am recopvering as fast as I can, given the severity of the injury I sustained in the attack. once again:DESCRIPTION OF ATTACKER: MALE-6'3: 6'4" closely cropped black hair--various tattoos, most notably one of a 'pentagram' on his lower back-at the time of the attack-roughly 4pm, june 5, at wakarusa festival-mulberry mountain, arkansas-he wa shirtless,and wearing blue denim shorts.he MAY be in the company of a blonde female, that is said to answer to the nick name 'hatter'--It is possible that her real first name MAY be 'jessica'.I do not know these people.-this is the onlyh information I could glean after th eattack.wakarusa security, WATCHED the attack, but made no attempt at apprehension. (if you fear retaliation, as many people who witnessed the attack have cited, yet, you come across my property-notably, my money clip-you may safely return it to the following secure address as well: Rob 718 Fort Worth Drive #104 Denton,TX 76201-7123 (if you put a return address on the envelope, but no name,I wil lsend the reward to that address) THANK YOU!

new jersey meadowlands

having been across the united states,being followed by the grateful dead,never did i expierience such problems as i had at the venue closest to my house..yellow jacketed security roaming the parking lot with the mentality that they were the law or above the law..i would have rather delt with state troopers than to deal with these idiots..it was around this time that a poor guy was found dead on the highway under an overpass,last seen being chased by these yellow jacketed jerkoffs..unfortunately the security guard was never found and brought to justice,but i know in my heart,that this poor guy was probably thrown off the overpass.." I T S E E M S L I K E A L L T H I S L I F E.......... W A S .... J U S T A D R E A M "