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When our previous topic hit the 1,000-response mark, sleazy behavior by politicians was eliciting a certain amount of non-astonishment.
Wow! Great conversaton today!
Thanks for the interesting back and forth everybody.
Guess we have to set aside a separate plate of CC cookies for Mr. Dean. No problem!
the dream team
gratefuldean, that was quite the team. I attended a meeting where Amory Lovins met with members of the Iowa Legislature (back when I lived there) about energy issues. This must have been about 20 years ago. If only his dreams and plans were undertaken. I remember he was also acting as a consultant to some branch of U.S. government or maybe even military to look at energy issues to decrease our dependence on mideastern oil and our involvement in the mideast issues as a national security issue and to save money and lives. But we had an oil president for 4 years and then an oil vice president (Gore) for the next eight.
Brower was a great inspiration to me. The man did much to build the environmental movement and protect wild places. Young at heart even when he was old. Glad I was able to meet him on occasion, his spirit rubbed off on me.
Keep it wild and free!
If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.
William Blake
The Indus River continues to flood...
...in the Swat Valley of Pakistan. More than a million are now homeless with thousands killed. The flooding from the monsoon is unprecedented and due to global warming. Those poor, poor people.To it's credit, Israel is helping Pakistan in this emergency. Perhaps there is hope for the world after all.
The greatest security risk on the planet now is global warming. More moisture as the greenhouse effect takes over means vastly more precipitation in the form of rain or snow in increasingly ferocious storms. Massive dislocation of populations across national borders is now imminent.
Will the snow be six to ten feet deep this winter where it was usually 3"-6"? I certainly hope not but we are far into the soup now that anything is possible, including that scenario from the movie about ecological catastrophe called The Day After Tomorrow.
How could our country, the leader of the free world, obfuscated on this issue for so long? The corporate propaganda machine took over and still churns out a mass of bullshit and their bought and paid for lackeys in Congress won't pass a bill to cut CO2 emissions. This is total insanity.
(Sorry, can't find any good news except the Jews helping the Muslims in Pakistan)
What is confusing me
is this: the outcry for humanitarian aid for Haiti was immediate and intense (and deservedly so) while about Pakistan I see more plain reporting, and less collection drives. Maybe I mentioned this before, but it's still puzzling me.
If we don't help the Taliban will!
**********************************
By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
Skipping back
Hal R, my everlasting memory of Amory Lovins: chatting him up at a Luau in Maui, John Denver was the evening entertainmnent, and we were standing away from the crowd. We'd had just enough to drink to get a warm buzz. During the course of our conversation, no recollection of why, he pulls out his wallet and extracts a picture...of his dog. The dog was wearing a bandana. My instant thought: "old hippie. He's one of us!"
If only, indeed. The world would be a different place if we'd been really working to implement his ideas over the past couple of decades.
TL
I'm confused as well, but I mark it up, in some ways, to disaster fatigue. Maybe that isn't it, but we seem to act/react more quickly to a single, out-of-the-blue catastrophe than we do when they seem to start piling up on each other. I know my own reaction to "trouble ahead, trouble behind" is to start hiding my head under my pillow.
And you know, THAT notion just crossed my mind...
German economy growing at a good clip
What gives, TL? What do the Germans do that the US doesn't?
Well, Lilly, The scale of tragedy...
...is still different than that of Haiti, but not by that much. A radical Muslim state like Pakistan is a different priority than a country close at hand -- at least to American charities.
German upward trend
hmmmmmm I am no economist, but I will give some of my guestimates as why this could be.
1.) Creation of 400 euro jobs
This was a program set up in 2008 (I believe) to put part of the long-term unemployed into menial jobs where they earned 400 euros/month; in addition to their unemployment benefits. That possibly led to some of the population feeling more productive again overall, plus having an extra 400 euros that they can spend.
2.) 2,500 older car rebate
The government was offering a 2,500 euro check for turning older model cars in for newer, more environmentally efficient one. As far as I know many people took this offer up, which was good for the overall environment, PLUS stimulated car production (at least temporarily)
3.) Export to the growing Asian market
Germany has done a pretty good job with this. Cars, appliances etc.
4.) taxes
Can't forget that we pay higher VAT taxes on every step of goods and services-which in the end keeps the money flowing more than American lower taxes. Some Americans bitch about taxes, but in reality know squat about paying over 20% of their income in tax (oops another topic in itself)
5 reunification costs balancing out (this is just a guess)
Reunification of East and West Germany was a very costly process, more than the people were ever told. It has been 10 years now, so perhaps these expences are balancing out and the East is pulling more of their financial weight again.
I think I will do some more research Gonzo-to your most interesting question, and will come back with more information. Whether what I have theorized above is anywhere close to an answer, or just uninformed guessing.
**********************************
By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
is in the direction I was thinking Gonzo
my guesses about aid for Pakistan were-if the government has the means to build nuclear weapons they also have the means to aid their population
-the far-off Muslim factor (though dangerous to ignore due to Taliban in proximity ready and willing to provide aid, while they recruit)
-that because the government was slow to respond to the catastrophy does not mean that they cannot-which was the case in Haiti.
Again am just speculating!
**********************************
By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
China is getting hit hard too
2,000 dead this year from floods and landslides. Another 3.5 inches of rain expected today? Yeesh!
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
Bourbon & Bayonets
Consensus GDP numbers for the remainder of the year have been cut in half by economists.
• The June Trade Deficit widened beyond everyone's expectations (see chart, below).
• The Fed just gave the market a nod this week that it was fully cognizant of the possibility of a 'double-dip' recession – the likelihood of which we say is still remote.
Ahhh, more good news, the likelihood of a double-dip recession is still remote -- Just don't tell the 13,000 in Atlanta who lined up for the Sec. 8 housing waiting list, 62 of which were hospitalized due to heat exhaustion.
never rub a monkey with a hammer
it irritates the monkey and gets the hammer dirty
Right outside this lazy summer home
Yeah, I just noticed some of the maple trees starting to change color this morning. I watched the Perseids Wednesday night from the top of 3,760 ft. Wildhorse Prairie 15 miles from the ocean, pretty cool, then lost my car keys in the morning for an hour, finally down to my last hope I unrolled my sleeping bag and they came tumbling out, whew.
Shall we go
You and I while we can
Through the
Transitive nightfall of diamonds
nice one johnman
Did you make that up? and it leaves the engineer with a worried mind
Visualize Whirled Peas...
...at Ground Zero. The latest faux controversy has to do with Obama supporting the law in the US, which says that religious groups have a right to build anywhere they can get local approval (permits, zoning). The Islamic cultural center (not mosque) will be built a couple blocks from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan.
Apparently it is believed that when Muslims win a battle in a holy war they build a mosque near that site. This has our zany right-wing on an Obama-bashing tear.
Personally, I wish there was a yoga studio in that old Burlington Coat Factory building, where people could stop in and meditate on their lunch hour or pilgrimmage to Ground Zero. If we could just visualize a tolerant world it would be a great start.
Social Seurity under attack
Alan Simpson, US Senator from Wyoming (home of Dick Cheney), and apparently font for all evil in the world, is about to return results from his fact-finding commission on SS. In order to "cut the budget" SS will have to be amended, meaning that people will receive less in the way of a monthly check.
If there is any issue that baby-boomers should be concerned about, it is SS. And not just baby-boomers. Any amendment to SS should be stomped and the authors railroaded out of office as a lesson to any other politician that would dare try this again.
Cut the war budget, get corporations off welfare but for God's sake, allow people who worked hard all their life the peace and dignity of a semi-comfortable retirement where they can afford decent food and medicine.
Really, Simpson and his ilk have no shame.
Social Seurity under attack
Alan Simpson, US Senator from Wyoming (home of Dick Cheney), and apparently font for all evil in the world, is about to return results from his fact-finding commission on SS. In order to "cut the budget" SS will have to be amended, meaning that people will receive less in the way of a monthly check.
If there is any issue that baby-boomers should be concerned about, it is SS. And not just baby-boomers. Any amendment to SS should be stomped and the authors railroaded out of office as a lesson to any other politician that would dare try this again.
Cut the war budget, get corporations off welfare but for God's sake, allow people who worked hard all their life the peace and dignity of a semi-comfortable retirement where they can afford decent food and medicine.
Really, Simpson and his ilk have no shame.
Fiscal responsibility
which is the mantra of the right seems to only be applied to those who have to struggle to get by. If you're filthy rich theses guys just want to give you more, more, more! We live in an immoral society.
of course, it's not just the right that's filthy rich
as example, look at that obscene display of wealth and power that was the wedding of Chelsea Clinton, besides which, i wonder how many taxpayer dollars went for Secret Service for the event. On the first lady's recent SHOPPING trip in Spain, there was an entourage of s.u.v.'s that would rival any funeral procession, and with 70 agents drawing $237 a day in per diem, in addition to their regular pay, i have to question it all. as i always say, you can't trust ANY of the bastards.
our royalty
it seems like every people want their royalty. if there is no king and queen then the leader of the country fills that status. it comes with the trappings of power. america has many past and present first families -- and some would add the kennedys to this list.
heaven knows it's all obscene but if i had to pick my battles they'd be things like nationalizing goldman-sachs and reigning in such masters of war as haliburton & blackwater. but still have to agree w/j'man, it really is wretched excess.
Hey Lilly, on aid to Pakistan flood victims
The US is now the largest donor among governments of the world to the victims of the Swat Valley floods. However, the NY Times reports that officials are trying to gain major torque with the Pakistani people in the fight against aq. America just happens to be pre-positioned with mass airlift of all kinds of stuff from Iraq they were planning to put on Craig's List.
Disease such as cholera and malaria are becoming epidemic with 2 million dislocated and about 2000 dead around the Indus in Pakistan. This ranks with Haiti and the big Tsunami as three disasters in this decade of truly biblical proportions.
More on the Islamic Cultural Center @ Ground Zero
The stated purpose of the organizers of this center is to promote tolerance and understanding. While I support their right to do so, there is no doubt that it is highly insensitive and insulting to millions of Americans and will not promote their goals.
So why do it? Our basic rights, freedoms and liberty is under wholesale attack due to 9/11. This insistence on this group asserting it's right is just plain stupid from every angle.
While I defend the right
To build the Islamic cultural center close to ground zero, I do have to question the wisdom (and motivation) of such an action. "Stupid" does pretty well sum it up, Gonzo. As an acquaintance of mine is fond of pointing out: why kick that skunk?
I disagree with you two
except for the part that millions of Americans will object to an Islam Cultural center near Ground 0. "why kick that skunk?" well the skunk of Islam is being kicked everyday with the "War on Terrorism" campaign, making people afraid of everyone who professes to be Muslim. That is not right, so I am for promoting cultural awareness. Not to mention the constitutional right to build such a center.**********************************
By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
Seattle slow down
Pres. Obama will be landing at Boeing field this morning to discuss small business matters w various constituents in a Pioneer Square bakery. I'm working in Kalama, WA later this morning, so the drive down I-5 may be a bit slow....
But Lilly...
...nobody is saying they don't have the right and freedom to build their cultural center, except, perhaps Palin and some of the crazies from Fox. The insensitivity of doing it in this particular place is what is objectionable. If the mayor of NYC was not in favor, this thing would have been quietly quashed. I personally believe that their freedom to do this is what makes America great. But, it's not even ten years since a radical extremist fringe of their religion, in the name of their religion being attacked by the US, attacked the US in that spot!
What do you think would happen if a group of Christians who worked for western embassies tried to build a Christian church in Jedda, Saudi Arabia? They would never be able to do it and the mere announcing of the intention to do so would either land them in jail or have them expelled in a hurry. There is a great deal made of how much Islam is a tolerant religion and, in some cities of the Middle East it is true that mosques and other places of worship co-exist. But the fact is that in most of Islam intolerance is coded into law.
There is such a thing as taking advantage. The timing is bad, the location is bad and they are not helping their cause.
It's the wisdom of the choice
That I question. It is just kicking the skunk. Do they have the right? Absolutely, and if all the local permits are granted and the decision is made to go forward, then yes, they definitely have the right. Just doesn't make it a good idea.
If there's an overarching point to be made that I'm missing (for example, building here and showing everyone that Muslims are peace-loving people who get along with and respect their neighbors...I guess that would be an overarching motivation that I'm missing), then maybe it's worth it to kick the skunk. If not, how does this action do anything but exacerbate an already bad situation?
Never rub a skunk with a hammer
It irritates the skunk and gets the hammer dirty.
Never rub a monkey with a skunk
It's just plain dirty, and you might end up getting hammered.
Conversation is always more interesting than recitation, so speak your mind and not someone else's.
Yes its true
We have the "right" to make poor decisions.
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
Islamic Cultural Center in NYC
There are valid points on both sides of this discussion. Here's my thoughts on this.
First: Do they have the right to build it? Absolutely! If we take away their freedom to do it the terrorists have won! Osama would love it!
Second: Should they build it? That's a more complex question. I confess to knowing nothing about this particular Islamic group. If they are a moderate group of Muslims who have nothing to do with the extremists groups perhaps they want to show everyone that all Muslims should not be painted with one brush. I call myself a Christian but there are extremist Christian groups who have gotten it all wrong in my opinion and I want to show everyone that all Christians are not like them. If this is their intention, then it MAY be a good decision. However, I confess that I might urge a group I was part of not to build a church at the Dome of the Rock because it might be offensive to many Muslims. The wisdom of the choice is a call the group in question will have to make. Obviously, if the group building the center is affiliated with radical terrorist groups, while I defend their right to build it I might also be inclined to exercise my right to protest in front of it!
Bottom line this is America and they have a right to build the center. If it fosters understanding then God bless it! If its an "in your face" from Islamic extremists let's not give them the propaganda benefit of stopping it!
There are schools of thought
that insist that the only reason the center is being built is that Muslims are "claiming their territory" after winning it by conquest. So called "Christians" did the same in the middle east during the crusades. I truly believe that people that would kill in the name of their respective "religions" are really not very religious.......just deluded fools that neither know or understand the true teachings of Jesus OR Mohammad.
well said, johnman
These are the types who try to create God in their own image!
well said TPH1, it was definitely difficult to sum up
Bottom line this is America and they have a right to build the center. If it fosters understanding then God bless it! If its an "in your face" from Islamic extremists let's not give them the propaganda benefit of stopping it!
As George Carlin always said
None of us have rights. But that being said, let them build their mosque, but why on ground zero (or even next to)? Why even stir that pot? To me It's like a murderer who breaks into a house, kills the family and then gets to live in their house. It just doesn't seem right to me.
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
6 million now effected by Paki Indus River flood
Less than one million have been helped with any kind of aid. The aid is there, there is just no way to get it to people other than air-drop. New villages are flooded every day as the floodwater continues to crest downstream.
Blago debacle ends in mistrial
After deliberating for about two weeks the jury came back with one guilty verdict out of 24 counts.The judge declared a mistrial and the government said it was ready to retry the case.
I have no idea what to think. This will make the "Democracy's worst moments" reel without a doubt. How do you explain Blago to a ninth grade civic class?
Blago jury
"A typical case of blind justice" and perhaps the jury never got to see the 27 8X10 color glossy phots, with circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one.**********************************
By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
America isn't the only place...
...where appearance trumps substance.
I have to wonder if, after Blago tried to trade the vacant senate seat for an ambassadorship, Rahm Emmanuel had a word with Eric Holder who then leaned on the FBI to pull the trigger on the less than subtle Rod-O. I'm sure they thought he would resign quietly. Alas, NOT!
The funny thing is Blago is letting his lawyer portray him as "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" in order to save his ass -- the "What, me worry?" Alfred E. Neuman defense.
~ Don't lend your hand to raise no flag... ~
Would hate to have been on that jury
24 counts, who can even keep that many charges straight? I've only got 10 fingers and 10 toes, so you've exceeded my counting capicity, let alone my making- a -separate -judgment- on- each- charge capacity. Especially when dealing with racketeering charges against a politician (racketeering, that has something to do with mob guys, right?), and most especially when you don't have video tape of money changing hands.
Give me an armed robbery or murder trial any day over this kind of crime.
What?
A crooked politician in Chicago? You're kidding, right?
The biggest thing Blag-o (and you Brits should really be getting a huge chuckle out of that moniker - isn't it funny just how appropriately named some people are?) had going for him was that there WAS a jury, albeit not exactly one of his peers. If it had been his peers (conniving, manipulating, slimeball, dirtbag self-dealing politicos) rather than convicting him of anything they would be more likely to pin a medal to his chest, send him down the hall and say "You're our boy!" Well, that's just about what happened anyway now, isn't it?
Welcome to the machine.
Conversation is always more interesting than recitation, so speak your mind and not someone else's.
Tony Bliar
Former British PM Tony 'Bliar' Blair has jsut announced that he wll donate the £4.6 million pounds advance and all the royalties from his forthcoming book to a centre for rehabilitaiton of injured service personnel. (thats as much as 8 million dollars)
Blair is reviled by many in the UK for ignoring or manipulating evidence to join GWB in his mad Iraqi adventure. The current enquiry into the entry of the UK into the conflict is revealing a lot of embarassing and humilating accounts of what really went on. Many think that Blair should be put on trial for his actions.
It is a hugely generous gesture, but many are saying that this is Blair's cynical attempt to salve his conscience. He has earned at least 15 million dollars in tha last 2 years from consultancies and speaking engagements. He appears to be highly regarded in the US. Families of the dead and injured are calling it blood money. Is it possible to buy forgiveness in this way??
Tony Blair has a pretty good haircut but his teeth are not so great!
We all want...
...to write our place in history. Forgiveness cannot be bought. Even at church.
or Carnegie Hall...
Legacy-buying has been with us for a while now.
I have no doubt that ol' Tony is feeling pretty guilty about now. Also wondering how he got so hornswoggled.
road to Damascus
Bliar also converted to Catholicism shortly after resigning as Prime Minister....looks like he is covering all his bases!