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    marye
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    Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.

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  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    4/17/82

    Looks like our buddy Dennis was at this one? D, if your out there, any comments?
    I was at first going to try the BG aud, but went with the Miller SB, which was decent.
    Show was ok, started out with some ok energy, nice Sugaree, then cool they rolled right into El Paso, but you could tell it was a tad allegro. Good of Bobby to just go with it instead of some awkward drastic change up. From there it’s a average outing until an ok, but nothing special Bird Song, and what at the time was probably a cool set ending Women Are.
    Now the Shakedown on the other hand was amazing. At first I was non plussed, but by the end, phew, beauty eh!
    That Shakedown alone was worth the price of admission. Sailor Saint was ok, followed by a sweet jam sans Fatty with Bob and Brent laying down some cool leads in Spanish jam etc. Nice UJB followed by a sorta status quo ending capped off by an always welcome Baby Blue.
    Certainly understandable how this gets overlooked by it’s more well know rowdy neighbors, and not perhaps dosent hang with the best of 82, but another off piste enjoyable show, and another notch on the proverbial “dead post”.

    Ok, DV with the Philski biffday tribute!
    3/15/90, Rollin!

    EDIT: almost forgot! Hiya Otis, nice to see ya!
    Yaassss that whole fall 91 run has been a real eye opener. I agree love 9/25, 10/31 is a top shelf show worthy of pickery, and 9/22 is another worthy candidate, but so far 9/26 is my fav, though I still need to hit the MSG run. Think I’ve only heard one of those so far but loved it.
    Perhaps we need to hit 2/19/91 someday since Bolo brought it up?

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    4/17/82

    Another enjoyable 82 show. Thanks for the nudge OB. I will have to go back and check out that Aud at some point Jim.
    Good first set, nice It's all over now, Birdsong, Man Smart, Women Smarter. Second set bonanza with Shakedown Street, Lost Sailor, SOC into a really good Jam. Was that a duck in UJB? Love those IAONBB encores. Really good show.

    Happy 82 Birthday Phil Lesh!
    What a run.
    Should we hit his 50th Birthday show today, 3/15/1990?

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    Went w/ the Miller

    Then I read the soundboard shaming comment from the archive that enthusiastically pointed towards the Glassberg audience. So I pulled that one down, digitized and dove in head first.

    I decided I like the Miller soundboard the best, but he has a point, many of the boards from this era sound think and lacking in dynamics. ..but once you get dialed in you adjust. I liked the Miller, it's the one seeded in 2019. I find often is there is more than on Miller, the later date wins the prize.

    A good show, great shakedown, very good sound for the era.. interesting.

    Not sure why I posted this.. perhaps an audience aficionado will have a different perspective. The comments from LMA are below.
    _________________

    Reviewer: AUD Snob - favorite - May 19, 2019
    Subject: it's still only a sbd
    the glassberg AUD is again the best recording for this great 1982 show. the description says it's an upgrade to all other sources. it should have the disclaimer that it's a sbd upgrade to sbds. the aud is significantly better. there is simply no reverb, sustain or fullness in these recordings. listen to the slow intro to nfa and the few slams brent gives the organ. it sounds thin and there is NO impact. i don't understand why these sources are hyped. please do yourself a favor and listen to the barry glassberg aud if you want to hear what this show sounded like live.

  • Thats_Otis
    Joined:
    Love me some 82! and 91 Bruce Picks

    4/17/82 sounds like a great pick! I'm going to wait to get home and stream it on the Big Boy.

    Also, @ IceCreamKid - 10/31/91 is an all-timer! That should definitely be a Dave's pick! I also really enjoy the whole Boston Garden 91 run - one of which (9/25/91) was Dick's Pick 17. I'd like to see some more of those as well! I particularly like the night before, with LTGTR opener, New Speedway 1st set closer, then the Ship of Fools>Dark Star in set 2. Some good shows that late summer/early fall (the MSG run has some gems too!)

    Peace

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    4.17.82....

    ....on it!

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    4/17

    I'll do 4/17, good pick and a new one to me. The next night has that Phil California Earthquake space. Phil was on a roll with good contributions to space that week.

    The Miller sounds great, just a couple small patches.

  • DeadVikes
    Joined:
    4/17/82

    4/17/82, Hartford sounds good. I was actually looking at this show a couple of days ago.

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    To Lay Me Down Studio Version

    That one would probably catch newbies off guard. ..and when their guard is down, slip em 220 mics and a 68 Viola Lee Blues. They will either love the GD or they will never be seen or heard from them again.

    Edit: Or become the next dictator of Russia. #FU Count Vlad.

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    I’m glad Bolos not my boss!

    Bolo the taskmaster lol. Boys tough!
    I’m sorry, I don’t think I can do a live version, there’s just too much: too many must have songs, from different must have eras etc.,
    BUT, I’ve already done a “album” version back a few years. I was asked to make a disc of the most known, perhaps main songs for someone who had causally seen the band and had some interest BITD. I was asked to keep it simple, no 36 minute songs etc lol. So I started thinking the same way Bolo presented this to us and realized if I tried to pick live stuff I’d die before I finished lol, so thought I’d use album versions, like I was teaching a GD 101 course.
    My criteria was to use the most well known, most easily accessible, sometimes the hits, but not always, and at least one song from every studio album, with at least one song from the main band members, in chronological order.
    Well it became quickly apparent that I couldn’t do that on only one disc, but did not want to go more than two. So it was a tough but fun process but here’s what I came up with. Like all final cuts I’m sure there’s room for “discussion” LOL

    NOTE: I use “album” loosely since there are several must have tunes that were never recorded on studio albums, so versions were taken from Skull Fuck and E72, which, are arguably hybrids. I Mean you HAVE to have a Bertha for example..Also, I used Must of Been Roses from Compliments, technically a JG album, but much of it in actuality of course is a band album similar to ACE. This song is slightly not chronological too, in order to keep the normal Jer/Bob sequencing. Days Between is from the So Many Roads box, which at the time was the closet thing to a studio cut I had.
    The Cryptical Suite was edited because of time constraints of the Redbook CD format, so I cut the last couple minutes and faded out using the trusty ML 9600 right after JG sings the last “has to die” part.

    Pedro’s GD Chronological Album Retrospective
    DISC 1: GD 101.1
    1- The Golden Road (to unlimited devotion)
    2- That’s it For the Other One p/o
    3- Saint Stephen
    4- Uncle John’s Band
    5- Box of Rain (Phil)
    6- Friend of the Devil
    7- Sugar Magnolia
    8- Operator (Pig)
    9- Truckin’
    10- Bertha
    11- Playing in the Band
    12- Brown Eyed Women
    13- Jack Straw
    14- Ramble on Rose
    15- One More Saturday Night
    16- Eyes of the World
    17- Stella Blue

    DISC 2: 101.2
    1- U.S. Blues
    2- Scarlet Begonias
    3- Ship of Fools
    4- The Music Never Stopped
    5- Samson and Delilah
    6- Must of Been the Roses
    7- Estimated Prophet
    8- Shakedown Street
    9- Alabama Getaway
    10- Althea
    11- Hell In A Bucket
    12- Touch of Gray
    13- Just A Little Light (Brent)
    14- Foolish Heart
    15- Days Between

    Ok, your probably like “where’s Terrapin, where’s Feel Like a Stranger” etc. Again, I was asked not to use jammy, obscure or other less accessible stuff. I’m sure there are a few I might of used instead, but I was thinking about what was most well know and easily accessible to newbie, ya know, ya learn to walk before you can run…
    My intention was to follow up with a second term GD 201 course version which would have hit the next level of songs: Terrapin, Stranger, H/S/F, China/Rider, etc. That could theoretically be followed up by GD 301 getting into the extended TOO, DS, Playins etc…
    I think this is a decent attempt at presenting the unpresentable to the often accessibly challenged ; )
    Oh, the gal I made this for loved it, said it was great except a couple of the first weird tunes lol, but she said she liked them and had her interest piqued!

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    POT Day with discussion

    5/14/74: always surprises me just how much I like this one! So much good sheet besides the awesome Dark Star! That whole disc three just kicks ass! When I think of DaPs, this one, Scooby House, and Skeletor Skater are the first ones that pop up in my minds eye.

    3/8/70: liked the short show format. Agree with others: sound ok considering, ok show until the unfortunate take over. Especially during Katie Mae! Talk about rudes interuptus! Couidnt he let pig finish the song, yeesshhhkk!
    Gotta love how JG always takes these situations and uses them as a way to support whatever was going on. Like when he plays on others songs, he’s as good or better supporting others as he is leading!
    This is the kind nugget I’m looking for here on Pot Day, doesn’t have to be a great show, but the chances of just stumbling on this were low. So thanks to Doc for digging up this historical little nugget.

    3/31/91: First set looks great on paper, but? Not a bad set, but seemed kinda average, comparatively.
    The second set made up for it though. Like many of the Hornsby lineup tunes, the Samsons are like big fright trains that take a little time to get going outta the station, but when they do get up to speed, woo, woooo!
    They mesh that into a nice eyes with a awesome dreamy sequence that eventually comes out the other side and back to earth with the Wheel, including a couple of obvious Dark Star teases, but alas that would have to wait for the following night at that excellent Greensboro show Conekid turned us into a while back.
    Big Chuck B double scoop of R&R to bring her home, and sweet knockin to bring ‘em back to earth.
    Perhaps a tad short, but an overall enjoyable show. Don’t think I’d call release worthy since there are so many other strong 91s, if only they give us a 91 box…

    Ok, what next? I might hit 4/17/82 today!
    Onward!

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Bolo24 says: An Idea, Perhaps? Since we're all going to have a fair amount of spare time on our hands for the foreseeable future, what about starting another thread where we all listen to the same show/release on a given day and then share impressions afterward? Folks can submit suggestions and one person (not me) picks what we'll all listen to - call it Deadnet Picks or something. Anyway, if this idea is deemed to have merit, I'd suggest one of the loyal regular posters take the lead and do the picking - y'all can decide who. Might be fun. If it does go forward, I nominate Dick's Picks 18 for the first listen. Been talked about here lately, and, had it been a single show rather than a compilation, we'd probably be talking about it in the same conversation as Cornell, Veneta, etc. Or perhaps even Gainesville?? Stay safe and healthy, friends - this planet needs as many Deadheads as possible.
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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Oberon.

Having one now.

Cheers DV.

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Morning, rockers!!

I had something very different written, but got Hey Now'ed. Numerous times. Can I please apply for an exemption?

All I can say is, May 15 1970. Let it elevate you!

Doc
If the king loves music, there is little wrong in the land.....

I was going to start on these shows today, but I began with 5/13/74 on Monday, completely forgetting that it was a show that lasted over three days. There's always tomorrow. Hopefully.

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A true heavy weight champion of a show. I'm. happy I got the bonus disc. The Dead at their best.

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In reply to by billy the kiddd

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We are used to it now, but I sometimes wonder if it threw people a bit when The Dead came out and played an acoustic set in 1969-1970. People who saw them couldn't have been as aware of what they were up to until they actually saw them, communications being what they were. I can't imagine the Jimi Hendrix Experience or Cream coming out and playing an acoustic set.
The Stones played a few acoustic songs live in 1969 - but only two as far as I am aware, not a whole set.

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Really enjoyed this show. Anyone else listen to it recently? The Uncle John's Band, Wharf Rat, Dark Star are the highlights of the show for me. Such good energy and man they are on fire.

Decided to keep the ball rolling with the Lyceum shows with 5/23/72.

Hope all is well out there.

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Yes!!! The 4 Lyceum shows are all top notch. 5/23 really fine, 5/26 one of my all time favorites!

Enjoy, and rock on!

Doc
When it's three o'clock in New York, it's still 1938 in London.....

Gave it a spin this past weekend.

Planning on spinning the rest of Lyceum vinyl this coming 3-day weekend, as well as my DP12 vinyl that is supposed to arrive Friday.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Holy cow. There's serious music everywhere you look.

... and I have the last show left.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Hey Jim, yes, love these four shows. No Vinyl for me, but I have the steamer trunk.

Still need to listen to 5/24 and yes 5/26.

Needed a diversation today, so I went with 4/27/85 from #49. What a great release.

Hey OB, how is everything going?

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Gave the vinyl a spin last night. Sounded grate.
Now about to brew my second cup of super dark roast Columbian Supremo.
I plan on roasting some beans this weekend, among other things, like spinning some more Lyceum vinyl.

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Yo, rockers!!!

For goodness sake, what else would I be listening to?

May 26, 1972. An all time favorite, the last show of a fabulous tour, the last truly classic show with Pigpen. The E72 cuts from this show were truly part of the soundtrack of our young lives. And still are.........

Who hears music feels his solitude peopled at once.......

Rock on, my friends!

Doc
To be alive, to be able to see, to walk, to have houses, music, paintings - it's all a miracle, I have adopted the technique of living life miracle to miracle.....

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In reply to by nitecat

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Alright, we made it to June!

Any picks out there?

Might have to check out 3/22/90.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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and since it's June..

It's been a while since I have listened to Road Trips Vol 4 no 5, June 9, 1976 at the Boston Music Hall.

It's funny, I was not a huge fan of the Road Trips series in general, but by the time this one rolled around I has warmed up on it tremendously. They were doing more complete shows by then and collectively I realized there were some monumental shows released as Road Trips. By the time I began to enthusiastically embrace the idea it got kiboshed. Go figure.

Or as Yoda was found of saying, Late to the Party, I am.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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This sounds good for my Monday Jim.

Our second taste of this tour, with the download series being the first.

This was the only year this released five from this series. Maybe this was supposed to be 5.1 before they decided to cancel this series and go to Dave's Picks.

Definitely an underrated series Jim.

Hope we are due for another 76 release soon.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Just started 6-10 in the car tonight.
A June 76 TOO Box would be grate. Give us the remaining shows.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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Seventy Sixtus would be proud.

I didn't quite make it to the end. Distractions abound. There's always tomorrow.

After I catch up, and with all the '74 hype, I'm tempted to dig deep into something from that year I have not heard in a while. Any suggestions? Something off the beaten path from a year that is pretty well paved. Maybe a complete, under the radar shows from the October Winterland run or Roanoke or something else that just hasn't percolated lately?

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In reply to by JimInMD

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This show might be the best of this run. Haven't listened to it in a couple years. Great first set, love that long Crazy Fingers and the second set with the St.Stephen Eyes all the way through the Franklins is a fun ride.

Thanks for the pick Jim.

74 sounds good to me. Can't remember if I have ever heard the Roanoke show.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Playing now.

June 1976 TOO Box - the remainder of the month, let’s have it in 2026 Dave.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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I am really enjoying this show, too. Completely off my radar until I foraged it out again yesterday. I would but a June 76 box in a shot.

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Going in with some red congolese... and Koyaanisquatsi on the vid. Lord have mercy.

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I'd love to hear doin that rag June 8th at the sphere in VEGAS BABY

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In reply to by sw@sherryjerry

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4-20-84
It’s a DaP.
Started playing in the car yesterday, set 2 started tonight driving home, get the transition to Fire tomorrow morning as I head back to work.

Thanks for the pick Conekid. Will fire it up tomorrow morning.

Then, will have to check out the new Miller via Doc 11/7/71.

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In reply to by DeadVikes

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Enjoyed that recently as part of my run through the spring tour.
Better than one might think…
Think I’m all the way up to summer tour which I’ll start soon…
Have also hit a lot of 94 summer tour, the rest of 79 I hadn’t hit yet (except 2 or 3), and a few missing 89 (think I only have December left), and I’ve completed all 69 up to September (did not do most of the Auds), and an occasional 74.
ONWARD!

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In reply to by Oroborous

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If those cassettes could be cleaned up the way 4-27,28-85 just was….

Ooooh……mmmmm….(drool, drool)….

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I did this one recently too, about the same time I last ran in and out of the Garden box. I also hit Philly 83 and Boise mixed in for good measure. Plus, I continue to revisit the Giants box, which keeps on giving it up and sounds fantastic.

I will hit 4/20 again though after I rest my bones and get some laundry done.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I will risk it all. Weed clones for One Thousand, Alex.

I see a comparison of 80's GD to dynamite sativa, 70's GD to trippy Indica and 67 through mid 70 to a really good hybrid. Hope I did not offend anyone.

I like it all, but when I really want to get things done or go for a speed hike, road bike ride or climb a mountain, 80's GD get's me through the pass and home earlier. I have always had a soft spot for 83 through 85. It's raunchy, the mix and clarity vary, and it suffers from over-saturation or sterility from time to time. The cassette master blues.

But it's like a Nirvana tinged GD you can turn up and make it through the day when you have to get shit done and don't really care about anything else except maybe the volume level.

Feel free to whack me down or snap the limb I climbed out on as I tumble down from the tree I just climbed.

the flip side is, when I need to come down off my adrenaline rush, 10/19/73 is a good place to start. That DS>MLB>Morning Dew will cure what ales you.

Summer tour baby.. bring it.

Is a very good show. It makes sense to release them now. We have become more accustomed to cassette masters and this run is as good as most if not any of what has been released lately. Combining this with Hawaii does make a little sense, or as a Dave's Picks.

One thing cone kid said recently was more June 76. Years ago when I listened to all of 76 in sequence the Tower Theatre shows (and I think Beacon) were not the best sound quality. In fact, I believe there were a few where only audience existed. This was probably ten years ago so and I haven't checked for upgrades lately.

Anyway, they have been doing this thing this year on SiriusXM's GD Channel where either Gary Lambert of David Gans does a deep dive into a show for some reason or another and they highlight a few songs for a week with some language on why they are playing and it's importance, quality, etc.

This week Gans has been focusing on one of the Tower Theatre shows and I'll be damned if the sound quality is not supreme, just like the first June 76 box. This is a major upgrade from what I pulled down from the archive all those years ago.

So yea.. 6/20/80 Alaska. Why not I say. Also, I really like the Matrix approach they pulled off with Dave's Picks vol 8. I love that show, another 1980 cassette master matched with a really special audience recording. They pulled it of, I'd hate to think this was a one-off.

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In reply to by JimInMD

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Time will tell. Would love to see any 1980 shows out, but, I still have my money on October 74 at Winterland.

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Seventy-Four

No argument here.

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1976 - 57 REELS

• 06-10-76 Boston MA, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• *06-11-76 Boston MA, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete *= + 1 REEL NOT ON ORIGINAL INVENTORY*
• 06-14-76 NYC, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-15-76 NYC, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-17-76 Passaic NJ, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-18-76 Passaic NJ, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-19-76 Passaic NJ, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-21-76 Philadelphia PA, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-22-76 Philadelphia PA, 5 X 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-23-76 Philadelphia PA, 1 x 7” REEL Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Reel #1
• 06-26-76 Chicago IL, 5 X 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete
• 06-28-76 Chicago IL, 1 X 7” REEL Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Reel #2
• 06-29-76 Chicago IL, 5 x 7” REELS Nagra 1/2trk 7.5ips Complete

2026 would be a grate year to release June 1976 The Other One Box.

“HI, I’m butters and I’m…”
But seriously, how come nobody ever includes any of the Orpheum shows when dis using 76 box wishes?

Edit: where does seventy Sixtus stand on this ; ) lol

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I've mentioned 7/13/76 as a good release lots of times. I was fortunate to have been there.

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In reply to by billy the kiddd

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I’ll take those too.

But my priority show is a Plangentized/Normanized 6-29-76.

6-14-76 playing in the car yesterday and today, and Monday because I’m not done yet.

My favorite ‘76 shows are 6-14, 6-29, 10-9.
Two released so far.

Heard High Time through end of set on cassette one enchanted evening back in the day

Yummy

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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That is easy, 12/31, and yes, I am with you on 10/9 and I will add 10/10, both Beacon shows, shit the list is growing. Just wish they played more shows in 76.

Edit. And of course 6/9.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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High Time was a bonus cut on DaP 28.. maybe they have the full show..

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Hey rockers and Fathers!!!!!!!!!

LOL yes I have a favorite 76. Rochester. Maybe biased because I was there..........

We were also at Colt Park that Summer, never heard a soundboard of that one, LOL did they forget to record it?????

Also really like 7/18/76. Lord, if it has to be mellow, let it be like this!!

Off to walk dogs and have more coffee, happy Father's Day to all!!!

Rock on,

Doc
Music is the silence between the notes.......

Over last 2 weeks enjoyed several spins of DaP 28 - 6/17/76 Cap Theatre. Long while since i had listened. Hit the '76 sweet spot from opening notes of Cold Rain.

8/2 Colt Park has a funny story (review) on archive where a kid realized that it was his Mom(!) that just walked to the edge of the stage and sat down in front of Keith. Turned out she was friend of Barlow and knew him from Wesleyan. And after he (son) got her attention, Mom got him on stage/backstage too! And he got to sit on the stage rest of first set watching Jerry from 6- 8 ft away.

Agree with ConeKid as to 6/29 (also 6/28) Chicago Auditorium Theatre needs to be released. As Danehead pointed out, 6/28 High Time is filler on DaP 28.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend friends.

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In reply to by bluecrow

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Playing now.
Happens to be the anniversary.

The Giants Box is grate.
More video please Dave.

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In reply to by icecrmcnkd

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I did a quick revisit of 4/20/84 also and it was enjoyable. The minute I finished this yesterday and walked inside they were playing the Help/Slip!/Franklins from 4/26/83 on SiriusXM, also at the spectrum. So a twofer early 80's spectrum fest. Both shows feature Morning Dews.

Have we done 3/26/73 yet? The night after Dave's Picks vol. 32, also at the Spectrum. It might be worth our time.

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In reply to by Oroborous

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Perhaps I am a bit late on this one...but I always love me some 76 discussions, thanks Oro for the tip!
I am wholly on board for more '76 - always.

Given the amazingness of the June 76 Box which of course included 6/11/76, a top-5 all-timer in my books (among others), I would more than welcome a second 76 summer box to round out those Chicago shows as well as Orpheum shows. My top tiers include 6/28 and 7/18 from those runs, as well as 8/4 which has its drum beaten almost monthly by Alvarhanso (with which I totally agree). It is noted there is an flawless YouTube of 8/4 in its entirety which is not to be missed. For sure, 76 has a fond spot in my heart - as I say, the glory and exceptionalism of 1977 had to be birthed somewhere...I say in 76.

Be Well People!
Seventy-Sixtus

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I ran through Dick's 20 on Saturday. Very enjoyable.

My listening list has gotten longer not shorter, hmmm.

Guess need to listen more...

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That was actually the first '76 show I ever heard. Anyone remember "Thursday Lunch" on KPFK down in Los Angeles? With Uncle Bob Young and Cousin Tom? I tuned in the program late, and the first set was underway, I heard some crowd noise and then Crazy Fingers began. Followed later by Let it Grow->Drums->Let it Grow, Might as Well. I was absolutely spellbound for that Crazy Fingers! I know many say the CF from Boston a month earlier is 'the best' but this is still my go-to, decades later...