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    What a setlist!... Made me jealous of those who saw this era live. Great sound… like ‘77 was yesterday. @derekb192 on 10/1/77, YouTube

    Wow! Just as when you think eyes is gonna go to drums out of the bliss comes dancing! One of my all time fave moments! Not just classic 77 but classic ever dead! - @emrysdavies1215 on 10/1/77, YouTube

    ...this show was off the hook from the very get go. The Casey Jones is the best I've heard... beginning a jam that goes through each member going off on an instrumental solo. The end has them jamming so hard you can no longer hear them singing through it. Now you know you're in trouble (The Good Kind) when a show starts like that... Weirtheir on 10/2/77, Dead.net

    Holy hell, the 10/2/77 Betty Board sounds incredible... I just wanted to pay homage to this unreleased gem, which features the lovely, tight playing you'd expect of a 77 show with some of the highest audio quality I've ever heard ... What a treat. u/monsteroftheweek13 on 10/2/77, Reddit

    I told my mother I was going into Portland with friends. I never told her where I went... @jamesmoore3694 on 10/1/77, YouTube

    We know where you've been and we're taking you back with the twice as nice DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 45: PARAMOUNT THEATRE, PORTLAND, OR - 10/1/77 & 10/2/77. Back-to-back complete previously unreleased shows on 4CDs? You betcha! Why? Because we couldn't pick one over the other of these two nights that have been described as "fire," "mind-frying," and "crispy" (bit of a theme here) too many times to count. Witness it for yourself when you dig into the inventive medleys and pristine sound, not to mention the first "Dupree's Diamond Blues" since '69 and the first live "Casey Jones" since '74.

    Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, this release was recorded by Betty Cantor-Jackson (with a boost from Bob Menke, more about that in David's video) and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering. Grab a copy while you can.

    *2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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  • billy the kiddd
    Joined:
    Anniversary show 3/28/84. Marin Veterans Auditorium

    39 years ago today, I saw the Grateful Dead put on a great show, at the tiny Marin Veterans Auditorium. It was the first show of 1984.

  • dmcvt
    Joined:
    official releases vs. streaming

    Dennis: Yes, let's drive them nuts with requests! We don't know what we don't know, so tell us already. If 45 and MSG have not sold out yet, they will, eventually. WMG is not going to lose money, how they guide their program must take us into account. I did not buy the trunk, could get by with 6 or 9 of those shows, they were available for a long while by the each direct from dead.net, picked a few off. Never designated as numbered or limited, now harder to find at 3x price, thankful for the help of friends. WMG could reissue selected Europe 72 shows and they would sell well. Found a simple easy resource to quickly show whats been released officially, through #45, search on deaddisc or GDFD Dead by Date. Chronological and incremental, easy to scan periods/eras, telling us stuff we already know but might have forgotten. SIXTUS: well said, nothing I could add to that, other than my thing, followed them since age fifteen, 55 years now at 70. Did not get over to Rutland for recent DSO, did previously thank Rob Eaton in person for all his crucial work for the archives... JRAD at Jay Peak in August.

  • Sixtus_
    Joined:
    Years vs. Eras

    The more I think back on all that the GD have done, one of the real enticements and awakenings for me at the beginning of this musical journey – once I realized that the recordings were ‘out there’ to find and consume – was the very real and tangible difference in their sound as I ventured across the years of their output. Indeed, the sound of this band, and rightfully so, morphs tremendously over the three decades they all made music together. We all know the general reasons for this, from the burgeoning and relatable hold that rock and roll had on the initiating generation, to numerous personnel changes which literally forced the sound to change (i.e. Pigpen’s passing, Mickey in/Mickey Out/Mickey In, the subsequent ‘Spinal Tap-esque’ revolving keyboard slot, etc.), to of course the addition and/or retraction of various mind-altering substances, as well as the inevitable wear and tear of the ravages of time on band members themselves.

    For a band to have existed for 30 years, it would be really difficult for them not to morph and change with the times given all of the circumstances. But I guess what has really hit me recently, especially after starting to listen more intently to other, newer bands on the upswing, is how much of the Grateful Dead music I reference in my mind as attributable to a particular time, or era. We all know that 66-69 GD is its own special beast. And that 70 was it’s own nuanced moment too. As was 71, then into 72 and the fabled tour, coming back and going into 73 and 74; the sound stays the same but also subtly shifts more toward the jazzy and open-ended. Then the hiatus and return, and once again they had reinvented their sound and approach to a lot of the music. Onward through the 70’s things shifted yet again, culminating with the end of the decade, another roster change, and the music now being played much faster (and arguably less exploratory) which permeated much of the 80’s until Jerry’s brush with death. They got another reboot, and things sort of calmed down as they headed off into their last half decade or so but they morphed yet again with the advent and inclusion of MIDI, love it or leave it.

    I guess what I am saying is that when I think about Grateful Dead music, I immediately think of a year or collection of years (i.e. The Era) in the context of whatever it is that I am referencing. I always have in my mind when listening or thinking about The Good Stuff, the inseparability of the band and the year the music in question or in thought is referring to. Because when you talk about the music, it is always tied to a year or to a performance and thus bringing with it the nuance of that time period, the good, the mundane, the transcendent. Thinking about the GD at different points of time throughout their career provides me with variances in appreciation that I honestly cannot say is received from many other bands, or even Things, for that matter. The fact that the Grateful Dead, on the whole, really need to be considered in their totality when thinking about them or honing in on any one thing, is fairly unique. In retrospect, I’ve been listening to the GD since I was about 13 years old. I’m now in my 50th year. That’s literally a lifetime! I know it pales in comparison to many others’ exposure, but what it has taught me is a really neat expose on longevity and creativity and how these guys continued to keep things new and fresh as a result of who they were and the changes that were forced upon them.

    Be Well People.
    Sixtus

  • Dennis
    Joined:
    DMCVT - list of vault

    Maybe they don't produce a list because we would drive them nuts about what to do next. We do anyway,,, but a list would make us whine even more! :-)

    .... yeah, where is that last FW69 vinyl?!?!?! :-)

    sidebar - VMP is putting out a box set of Miles Davis. 350 bucks, 7 electric albums. One of the albums (on the corner) is a record store day buy. Box looks nice, may have to pass or wait. Those unemployment blues! :-)

  • dmcvt
    Joined:
    JJ Cale: Cajun Moon

    One of my most favored "moon" songs... just listen how JJ creates such a deep groove that swings in a few seconds. That sweet laid back guitar. I would buy an Ark box in a heartbeat. If they have been listening at all, we are way overdue for a primal/primal transition box, a late 60s Bay Area box, et al. How about publishing an inventory of whats in the vault? And where, oh where, is the final vinyl for FW69??

  • daverock
    Joined:
    Dark WasThe Night

    Ledded - I liked your post titled Dark Road. To me, the country blues of the 1920's and 30's also has a supernatural quality. The fact that the recordings are often quite crackly adds to this feeling of mystique - you really do feel as though you are listening to music from another dimension. Some of the mythology adds to the vibe - Robert Johnson selling his soul to the devil, Peetie Wheatstraw A.K.A The Devils- Son -In -Law. But the power is in the grooves. Scores and scores of great and otherworldly recordings.

  • daverock
    Joined:
    1967-1968-1969

    I'm not sure years are always the best way of thinking of eras with The Dead. For me, what I think of as primal Dead started when Mickey Hart joined around September 1967. They seemed to be on a continuous, thematic run of creativity from then until they started introducing Working Mans Dead songs, around May 1969. Not that the creativity dried up - it just started shifting, gradually, into another dimension. Looked at like this, that whole era, from late 1967 until mid 1969 - one of the most creative periods in their ( or anyone else's) career, has been completely overlooked in the Dave's Picks series. Even the 1969 shows released in the series so far have been outside this period.
    So, to cut to the chase - high time we had a release from late1967- mid1969!

    I don't think I would buy a 1990's box - maybe if it was Europe 1990, as I was there for three of them. That would be the selling point, I guess, for 80's-90's shows -people would be tempted to buy them just because they were there at the time.

  • Vguy72
    Joined:
    Ark us!!....

    ....that would sell out in six hours.
    I know EVERYONE here would buy it.
    The women aren't always smarter 😉

  • Mr. Ones
    Joined:
    Who Knows?? Not Me.

    We know Wake of the Flood will be released with (hopefully) some live ‘73 stuff. We know about Dave’s 46 (can’t wait!!) live ‘72.
    The optimist in me says surely’71 for the box?!?!
    Not a chance. My guess is ‘85, ‘87 or ‘91.
    Or….maybe another 1 venue cornucopia.
    Whatever it is, I want it/gotta have it.

    Last 5:
    Beyond Description-Bonus Disc (sweet!!)
    Zappa-Mudd Club ‘80
    Jeff Beck-There And Back
    Jackson Browne-Hold Out
    Dick’s 11-Disc 3 (Dark Star- 31 minutes!!)

    Music is the Best!!

  • JimInMD
    Joined:
    This Years Box

    Nice imagery Ledded.

    As for the box.. I'm not getting a 90's vibe. We have St Louis, then MSG.. so early 70's then early 80's. Neither were multi track. Something of higher sound quality or perhaps some 73 to celebrate a half century.

    I have to think there are a few boxes containing 1" thick reels of magnetic particle coated acetate sitting in the vault waiting to be heard. I'm a little bit surprised there was not more push back on the last box being pulled completely from cassette masters. I enjoyed that box primarily because the years are not very well represented, and shows were strong from the era.. but compare it to say July '78 and it was a big step down in sound quality.

    I think there will be some pressure to step things up, and if there isn't there should be. Or maybe.. (hope I'm wong), they have to scale back on the boxes or they will lose their specialness among what's being released. The last box set was something like $189 I think, during a time of economic instability.. well.. I don't think they want a dud. They really have to step it up a bit.

    All this is moot, however, they surely are well beyond the selection process. Let's hope they selected wisely.

    I do think at some point they have to give us a 68 show or a composite of partials/shorter shows. Geeze Dave.. look beyond the banana boxes, perhaps you will find an orange crate (hint, they're bigger).

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What a setlist!... Made me jealous of those who saw this era live. Great sound… like ‘77 was yesterday. @derekb192 on 10/1/77, YouTube

Wow! Just as when you think eyes is gonna go to drums out of the bliss comes dancing! One of my all time fave moments! Not just classic 77 but classic ever dead! - @emrysdavies1215 on 10/1/77, YouTube

...this show was off the hook from the very get go. The Casey Jones is the best I've heard... beginning a jam that goes through each member going off on an instrumental solo. The end has them jamming so hard you can no longer hear them singing through it. Now you know you're in trouble (The Good Kind) when a show starts like that... Weirtheir on 10/2/77, Dead.net

Holy hell, the 10/2/77 Betty Board sounds incredible... I just wanted to pay homage to this unreleased gem, which features the lovely, tight playing you'd expect of a 77 show with some of the highest audio quality I've ever heard ... What a treat. u/monsteroftheweek13 on 10/2/77, Reddit

I told my mother I was going into Portland with friends. I never told her where I went... @jamesmoore3694 on 10/1/77, YouTube

We know where you've been and we're taking you back with the twice as nice DAVE'S PICKS VOLUME 45: PARAMOUNT THEATRE, PORTLAND, OR - 10/1/77 & 10/2/77. Back-to-back complete previously unreleased shows on 4CDs? You betcha! Why? Because we couldn't pick one over the other of these two nights that have been described as "fire," "mind-frying," and "crispy" (bit of a theme here) too many times to count. Witness it for yourself when you dig into the inventive medleys and pristine sound, not to mention the first "Dupree's Diamond Blues" since '69 and the first live "Casey Jones" since '74.

Limited to 25,000 numbered copies, this release was recorded by Betty Cantor-Jackson (with a boost from Bob Menke, more about that in David's video) and has been mastered to HDCD specs by Jeffrey Norman at Mockingbird Mastering. Grab a copy while you can.

*2 per order. Very limited quantity available.

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17 years 5 months

In reply to by 1stshow70878

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....site is up. Lottery currently underway.
psst.....Buffalo is the better show.

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Just checked, you can order it again. Don't know how they manage inventory...

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I wonder why they never did a 50th anniversary release for Live Dead, one of their greatest albums.

Can't believe it's 50 years.
Privileged enough to see and hear him twice during Europe 72., my first Dead shows.
First was Wembley 8th April. I was amazed how thin an frail he looked, but the voice was still there and we got Mr Charlie, Next Time, Good Lovin', Hurts Me Too and Caution.
Next up was Bickershaw Festival on 7th May. This is widely regarded as the set they should have played at Woodstock. It was wet, it was cold, it was magnificent.
Pigpen sang Mr Charlie, Chinatown Shuffle, Next Time, Big Boss Man, and a quite wonderful Lovelight.
On a very personal note I turned 18 on May 8th. Despite coming on at 19.30 on the 7th they were still playing at midnight and they were playing Lovelight. Talk about a dream come true!

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In reply to by Vguy72

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Good luck in your quest for Cornell tickets.

I was having a bad day until I looked at the prices for tickets and hotel packages. I got a pretty good chuckle out of it.

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10 years 1 month
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Gouge
(Verb)
/gouj/
To overcharge; swindle.

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9 years 1 month

In reply to by Vguy72

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Your answer is in the email:

“CORNELL 5LP set and a handful of MAY 1977: GET SHOWN THE LIGHT (ALL MUSIC EDITION) 11CD sets that we recently unearthed at the warehouse.”

They don’t have very good warehouse management skills.
Similar happened several years ago but I don’t remember what release it was.

Maybe DaP45 is in fact sold out but they don’t realize it.

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Got our tickets today for Dark Side of the Mule at Red Rocks. For those not in the know (assuming one cares), Google it. Jason Bonham's Led Zeppelin Experience opening. I saw Warren the last time he brought the Dark Side to the Rocks and it was fucking fantastic, inasmuch as I can remember. We had a pow-wow in the parking lot up top. My friend has a handicapped parking pass, and they waived our car into a coned off area as we broke out the camping chairs and coolers. Bruce brought THC infused vodka jello shots... I distinctly remember sitting in the sun with my car trunk open, blasting Aerosmith's "Toys in the Attic" followed by Zeppelin's best of "Mothership."

It felt like high school... we were fucked up and riotous. One thing about the crowds at Red Rocks, I swear to God it is always the friendliest bunch of people you'll ever meet. Like, everyone is kind.

I'm sick tired of getting fucked over by TicketBastard for these shows. Today, I hit back. I don't mind sharing this. I was at work and I fired up three different computers and opened both Chrome and Edge on them all, so I had six browsers open and got them all into the waiting room. The room where I usually go to die... I missed Tom Petty's last tour due to this evil! Anyway, there was a limit of 4 tickets per purchase and we have five going including two flying in from California so I could not fuck this up. I got in for four in Row 27 and then again for one more in Row 25.

I feel truly blessed. The 3rd best concert ticket buying experience of my life, after drawing spot #2 in line outside Macy's for Rolling Stones tickets in the mid 90s, and showing up with beers and joints in front of a Colorado Springs music store at 4am prior to SRV's final tour with Joe Cocker. We were first.

Last 5:

ELO - The Essential Electric Light Orchestra
Elvis Presley - Elvis: 30 #1 Hits
Mark Lanegan - The Winding Sheet
Apocalypse Now - Soundtrack, 1979
AC/DC - Powerage

\m/

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12 years 11 months
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If they "found" new inventory now, why are they a pre order with a May shipping date? Don't you think TPTB would want to get rid of the remaining stock, immediately? it just doesn't add up to me.

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In reply to by wissinomingdeadhead

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Maybe they are trying to cover up their mistake by pretending it's something new, which you have to pre-order so you don't miss out. It's the Holy Grail of Dead shows now, according to the blurb.

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I read that as them saying the Get Shown the Light was the "found inventory" not the vinyl. But it doesn't really explain why they thought to press more vinyl of Cornell. Wasn't that a limited numbered one when last put out?
Cheers

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It would be great if they came up with a bunch of copies of the Fillmore West Box set that were stashed away in the whearhouse, now that would be something..

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Billythekid, I wish too some more copies were available. I missed out on that one. Resale prices are just too rich for my blood.

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Buy the records of of the FW box set, if you have a turn table, (I dont), but I would go out and buy one just to get that music. You can still get all the records brand new at reasonable prices. I Ibought the box when it first came out, 2 copies, one for me and one for.my brother. I also have bought the records even without a turntable.

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OK, let's talk conspiracies. We know that: a) the current DaP isn't selling very well, and b) Rhino suddenly discovers more copies of the very popular May 77 box and puts 'em on sale, AND c) out of the clear blue sky they also suddenly decide to reissue the very popular Cornell vinyl.

Coincidence, you say? Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. I could tell you more, but then I'd have to kill you.

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This sudden deluge of 77 items has prompted me to go and watch some episodes of 77 Sunset Strip. Maybe it's great, maybe not - when the series originally aired I was too young to decide objectively if it was awesome or crap.

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In reply to by simonrob

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41 million albums vs 33 million CD’s.

Although streaming makes up 84% of revenue.

As for me, I’m going to keep buying GD CD’s from Rhino and maybe a little vinyl here and there.
No need for streaming.

....promised to make tickets affordable to fans. Albeit, they will be non-transferable according to what I read.
Last Five....
The Cure - Wish
Trey & Page - January
Day Of The Dead Compilation - discs 1 & 2 (I count that as one).
Jethro Tull - Heavy Horses
Widespread Panic - Ball

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Producer for Husker Du and others

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Joy Division unknown pleasures
JD closer
Megadeth rust in peace
Clash london calling
Motorhead inferno
Funkytown
Double Dutch Bus
Archies sugar sugar
Big Country big country
Men Without Hats safety dance
Come on, Eileen

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7 years 4 months
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Pink Floyd-The Endless River
David Gilmour-About Face
Pink Floyd-The Final Cut
McCoy Tyner-Sahara
GD-Dave’s Picks Vol. 11

That’s all I got…

…Music is the Best!!

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Interesting article in Business Insider about MG and her new memoir. Great pix, too.
Google MG and memoir.

I see you posted The Cure's Wish as a last 5.

Do they come any better then "From the Edge of the Deep Green Sea"?

The man can sing "hurt" better than anyone else.

"Slips her dress like a flag to the floor, And hands in the sky surrenders it all"

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4 years 4 months

In reply to by Dennis

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Cream
My virgin listens to Fresh Cream and Wheels of Fire

Also
Last evening on PBS nitty gritty dirt band in nashville
Covering a bunch of bob dylan and other stuff
A very pleasant surprise

Yes I searched and searched for MG's book, I don't think it has been published yet. That was kind of suggested in the article when she was reading from her pages from a box. I also came across the book "Mountain Girl" which has nothing to do with MG.

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In reply to by proudfoot

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Mention of "Wheels Of Fire" always puts me in mind of it's stunning cover by Martin Sharp. It's worth getting both this and "Disraeli Gears" on vinyl so you get the full effect of the visuals.

So all the parties are generally held the weekend before March 17. I can always go for some traditional Irish music, especially if it’s sung by Iarla ó lionáird. So after a nice first set of Gaelic songs, the band returns and opens with a Bertha into a Shakedown to the bewilderment of the revelers. Nice.

Thank you for the heads up on the 3/1/69 vinyl. I grabbed a copy at a very reasonable price and hope to enjoy it whenever I get around to purchasing a turntable.

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Feedback. I was also listening to the first set on Dave's 35. Pretty hot.

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10 years 3 months

In reply to by carlo13

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That's a great late period album by The Electric Prunes. The 60's with attitude. Another unexpectedly great late period release by an original psych band is "Wake Up Where You Are" by The Strawberry Alarm Clock, which again came out this century some time.

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12 years 1 month
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Seems Floyd releasing a live Dark Side (Wembley Pool).

Order cd and lp.

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In reply to by Dennis

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Should be a good one for those having difficulty sleeping. Only jesting - "Wish You Were Here" would be better for that.

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What a blast! Along with Nappy, Nite Cat, and my brother Cousins, we all had a knockout of a weekend, entertainment provided by the Good ole Grateful Dead. Of course they did Friend of The Devil. Wow, 41 years ago, where does the time go.

It's a shame they didn't release the whole show, instead of just the run through "Dark Side of the Moon". They opened with "Shine On.." then played "Raving and Drooling" ( Sheep on "Animals") and "You Gotta Be Crazy" ( Dogs on "Animals") Then "Dark Side of The Moon", with "Echoes" for the encore.
"Echoes" from this show ( I think) was included in the Early Years box - the final section called "Continu/ation 1967-1972". But it will cost you - I don't think you can buy that without getting the whole box. Why it was included there, out of it's timespan, is a bit of a mystery.

Makes no sense why they release half the show. Was surprised about that Echoes, I had forgotten there was more cds in the actual box than the individual sets, which is what I went for and finally completed 18 months ago. I guess since I had first been gifted an mp3 copy, I never noticed the missing music the way the damn things are laid out. It has to be one of the most confusingly tracked and labeled box sets ever. The first run of boxes included a hidden 5.1 Meddle mix that was scrapped last minute as they hadn't let Roger Waters hear the mix yet. Then they screwed up and put a 2016 cd remix of Live at Pompeii in instead of the planned 2016 remix of Obscured by Clouds. Luckily, the 1972 individual box contains both, however, sadly, they cottoned on to the hidden Meddle, and subsequent boxes were bereft of this still unreleased, officially, epic mix of some incredible music. There is a 1971 quadrophonic mix of Echoes on the DVD/BluRay. Can never have enough Echoes. Never. Or Raving and Drooling and You Gotta Be Crazy and Shine On...

I am not looking forward to Roger Waters's reconceptualization of Dark Side, complete with spoken word over On the Run and Great Gig and Any Colour You Like apparently. He also plays an instrument on just one track on it, so one has to wonder why in the hell he's re-recorded it, if he didn't really re-record it? I get petty band relationships, but the feud between Waters and Gilmour is childish, and maybe that's the problem, they've known each other since they were kids before any bands to even join.

Though, I am looking very much forward to Peter Gabriel (and Tony Levin) in seven short months' time in Boston. That will be a hoot, I am sure. I think it was Vguy that alerted me to the tour announcement a week ago, thanks for that. My wife will thank you in seven months, for now she's skeptical.

Edited to add: I forgot that I did a search on The Early Years Box because of my having forgotten that last little bit Continu/ation, and on Amazon right now, there are 12 copies available new at $363. Don't know why, or for how long, but thought I'd pass that along. For frame of reference, it was $550 on release.

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In reply to by alvarhanso

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I assume that it’s the same recording that was on CD2 of the recently released DSOTM reissue.

I passed on the Early Years Box but got the individual mini Boxes for half the price (at that time). I figured that I could pass on the bonus Box since I didn’t need the two movies and already had the Echoes. Just went to Wikipedia to see what else was in that bonus Box and the article mentioned that some of the Blu-ray’s from the whole Box were defective and there was a recall from 2019-2020. Hope mine aren’t bad now, guess I’ll have to watch them all to check. Put that on the to do list.

David and Roger fighting.
DLR and Eddie VH fighting.
Inflated egos ruining good bands.

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In reply to by alvarhanso

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Alvarhanaso - you probably know - I had forgotten yesterday - but the first three tracks from the Wembley 1974 show, "Shine On.." "Raving and "Drooling" and "You Gotta Be Crazy" were included in the second disc of the "Wish You Were Here" set that came out a few years ago. Which does make this new "Dark Side" live portion that's coming out a bit more desirable, as it's possible for me to piece together the whole show.

My copy of "Early Years" included a cd of "Live at Pompeii" but not "Obscured By Clouds". I contacted "the authorities", and they sent me a cd of " Obscured Through Clouds." I didn't get the new mix of "Meddle" - though it occurs to me that if it's hidden, I may have it somewhere and not know about it.
The other anomaly with this box is that the film "La Vallee" ( Obscured By Clouds) is in French with no sub titles.

CNKD -the best thing about the Contin/uation set for me are the 10 BBC recordings from September and December 1967, with Syd Barrett still at the helm. The September set includes "Set The Controls For The Heart of The Sun" - which is great to have even if it is only about 3 minutes long. It's not that well recorded - it sounds as though someone taped it off a small mono radio by holding a microphone in front of the speaker. But what the heck.
I also like the alternative promo film for "Arnold Layne". But if you aren't that fussed about the Syd era, it's probably not worth getting. It's a long way, for better or worse, from the Dave Gilmour lineup of the band.

That re-recorded version of DSOTM you, mentioned , Alvarhanso, by Roger Waters sounds a bit of a travesty to me. Maybe he thinks of it as more of a solo album than one by Pink Floyd .

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In reply to by daverock

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In my Pink Floyd folder, shows. I have two shows from "Wembley". 11/15/74 and 11/16/74. One is labeled Wembley Stadium and the other is "Wembley Empire Pool".

Are these the same place or two different venues?

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